Live HD programming?

[Phydeaux]

Not sure which forum to post this in, apologies if this is the wrong one...

I'm fairly new to the whole PVR thing, but have the following in mind yet don't understand how it's possible:

HTPC with SageTV. "Feed" that with output of my satellite STB. Prefer this gear all be in a utility area of the house, therefore use an HD100 Media Extender at my TV to source everything from the HTPC. So far, I understand this fine. I can understand how the Media Extender will pull content from the HTPC - SD and HD files and even live SD content from the STB - However... how do I get the HD output of my STB into the HTPC? I know I can get a Hauppauge HD DVR to sort of do this if I'm prepared to record the content (and watch it later). But what about live HDTV? How can I watch that via the Media Extender? I guess that's my fundamental question - how do I watch live HD satellite content via the Media Extender?

RLW

[Apap]

It can be a bit confusing to start but I'll try to help make sense.

In order to capture HD content from your satellite receiver you can use the HD-PVR. You connect the component output cables from your satellite box to the inputs on the HD-PVR.It captures the HD stream and encodes it to H264 format and sends it via USB cable to your HTPC. Your HTPC acts as a server to send the captured HD video feed to the HD-100 extender via ethernet. When you watch "Live TV" you are actually watching a recording in progress several seconds behind real time.
You will find that after a while using Sagetv you probably will watch less live tv and watch more recorded content. the only live tv I watch anymore is local news.

Hope this helps.

Apap

[Phydeaux]

Thanks Apap. Yes, I understand how the HD PVR works, how it's wired etc. My question was really about watching live HD content (sourced by the STB) via the Media Extender. If I'm hearing you correctly the only way to do this is to have the HD PVR capture everything and let the HTPC serve it up. I wondered if this was the case and if the HTPC could serve up the file as it's being created.

That scenario is really very far from ideal. Basically the HD PVR and HTPC are in continuous use even when I'm just restlessly flipping channels - chewing up hard disk space, wear and tear on the gear for nothing. Not only that, but unless I'm prepared to just let it continue to record whatever the last channel I was on, I really have to stop and start the HD PVR recording process everytime I want to watch TV. The ideal, for the scenario I had outlined, was that all the gear was in a utility area and all I needed was a single remote (Media Extender) to turn on the TV and extender, choose the type of content I want to watch - either stored or live feed from Satellite - and relax. And from what I've read I could do that... with SD satellite content and a normal TV capture card. But if the satellite output is HD... I have to jump hoops. And the significant other isn't going to learn to start and stop the HD PVR, mop up the resultant useless recorded content afterwards etc.

So it's clear to me that the STB must reside with the TV. Which means the HD PVR must reside nearby also othewise I'm looking at long (expensive) component video cables. Which means the HTPC must reside nearby due to the 5 metre restriction on USB cabling. Does an an IR Blaster come with SageTV to change channels on the STB? Yet another reason why it all needs to be located together. Which all adds up to a shed-load of gear each with it's own whining fan, remote control etc. residing in my living room. Not going to happen.

I expect you're right, that we would watch more recorded TV than live. And the HD PVR along with SageTV is still of interest to me for scheduling recording. Can you tell me if there is any restriction on where the H.264 files are stored? Can SageTV/HD PVR record this content to mapped drives on the HTPC? The reason I ask is because I would want all recorded material to go to my NAS.

Thanks,
RLW

[Taddeusz]

Unless you're using SageMC partial recordings are not kept. And non-favorites are the first to get automatically deleted when space is needed.

I don't understand what you're talking about when you say starting and stopping the HD-PVR. It effectively works like any video capture card only that it's connected via USB and has no internal tuner. It takes it's input strictly from either component or s-vid inputs. You can actually use any tuner card this way by using only it's s-vid input. So you should be able to channel surf just fine with the HD-PVR.

Yes, the HD-PVR and STB need to be next to each other. I have mine situated next to my server. The only thing connected to my TV and surround receiver is my HD Extender. I use a Harmony remote and it all works fantastically! I couldn't have asked for a better solution.

It will all be even better once Hauppauge releases the AC3 5.1 capable drivers.

[Phydeaux]

Thanks Taddeusz,

Yes, I understand the pass-through aspect of the HD PVR, where channels are changed on the STB and the HD PVR captures whatever comes in and outputs in the form of a file over the USB port.

When I say stop and start the HD PVR I was referring to the fact that in order for the HTPC to serve up HD content that the Media Extender can present, it has to exist in form of a file. Therefore, for live TV, the HD PVR must be writing that file as it recieves the content from the STB. Therefore you have "tell" the HD PVR to start recording, don't you? Or does it just continually stream out a file all the time? In which case it would fill a 4TB NAS in no time. Or can you just dedicate X amount of space to it as a working folder to limit it's growth? I guess that's how any normal PVR works - you have X amount of time you can "rewind live TV" - 30 minutes, whatever, which translates to the device having X GB of working room. After 30 minutes it just begins to overwrite the older data.

So maybe my questions are more around integration between SageTV, HD PVR and Media Extender. When you turn on the Media Extender and select a "Watch Live TV", does this in turn power up the STB and then power up the HD PVR and tell it to start recording, then present the newly created recording? I think I'm just having trouble swallowing the idea of leaving the STB, HD PVR, and HTPC turned on all the time and the HD PVR continually writing "something" to a hard disk.

On another front, a basically unrelated question: if the component outputs of a Blu-Ray player were connected to the input of the HD PVR... would that not be a reasonable way to back up an owned Blu-Ray disc?

I appreciate this discussion - I'm learning lots. Sorry if I seem to be a little thick...

RLW

[Taddeusz]

Yes, you have a misunderstanding of the way SageTV works. SageTV does not use a circular buffer like other PVR's. You don't have to tell it to record unless it's something you want to keep for later. It is however always writing to a file but only while you are watching.

The HD-PVR is told to capture only when a scheduled recording is taking place or you're watching "live" TV. But in either case the process is the same. SageTV captures the video to a file from the moment you begin watching and then begins playback of what is being recorded. That way you can start, stop and rewind it at will without having to worry about whether it's recording or not as with some other recorders.

But again, it is not always recording.

You can specify how much space SageTV will use to record but I would recommend dedicating a drive or partition to recordings.

I personally wouldn't consider backup up BD movies like that reasonable. Mainly because you're taking a lossy digital recording, converting it to analog and then re-digitizing and compressing it lossily yet again. I don't mind the process with television programming simply because it's all throw away to me. I view it and discard it. The quality is good enough for that purpose. This is very subjective thing though.

[Phydeaux]

Ok Taddeusz, I'm clear on this now. Clearly there is good integration between SageTV and the HD PVR. Is there even any need to install the software which comes with the HD PVR?

Yes, I can dedicate a drive local to the HTPC for general "throw away" recordings, live TV etc. However, can I tell SageTV to put have scheduled recordings somewhere else - say, a mapped network drive?

I guess at this point I should just download the SageTV trial and poke around a bit.

Agreed re: backing up Blu-Ray. For my regular DVDs I've backed them all up in ISO format and store them on my NAS. I'm then able to watch them on TV via a TViX 6500. Too bad the Sage Media Extender HD won't allow me to access these ISO files, otherwise I could dump the TViX in favour of the Media Extender and drop the component count on my media stand...

I appreciate your help, thanks.
RLW

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by Phydeaux

Ok Taddeusz, I'm clear on this now. Clearly there is good integration between SageTV and the HD PVR. Is there even any need to install the software which comes with the HD PVR?

I really don't think so. I did on my server anyway. The only thing you might need the rest of the software for is playback. To install the Arcsoft decoders. But the rest of it shouldn't be needed if you have a headless server.

Originally Posted by Phydeaux

Yes, I can dedicate a drive local to the HTPC for general "throw away" recordings, live TV etc. However, can I tell SageTV to put have scheduled recordings somewhere else - say, a mapped network drive?

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Since Sage doesn't differentiate between the two all recording space is used for both favorites and live tv. You would need to manually move the files if you wanted to separate stuff you want to keep from the rest of the flotsam.

[Phydeaux]

Ok, well fair enough. I can just dedicate a spindle to Sage and anything I want to keep longer term or archive I can just manually move onto the NAS for later reconsumption. A certain amount of housekeeping is to be expected.

But I guess brings up another question with respect to HD Media Extender. Can it be pointed to my NAS as a source of media? Is is NFS/SMB aware?


RLW

[Skirge01]

Taddeusz, correct me if I'm wrong here because I don't have any tuners in my HTPC yet and am still quite new to all this, but...

Would it be somewhat accurate to think of the "live TV file(s)" as a sort of page file, like in Windows? From that perspective, you tell Windows where to put it and you're done with it. Windows may resize it at will, utilize it for anything it chooses, you cannot move it or rename it, nor can you utilize it for your own purposes, and you don't need to manage it in any fashion because Windows takes full responsibility for it. It seems that a distinction needs to be made in that Sage locates the file(s) wherever there's available room on a drive, but otherwise, I think this analogy may help to make sense of it all.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

Taddeusz, correct me if I'm wrong here because I don't have any tuners in my HTPC yet and am still quite new to all this, but...

Would it be somewhat accurate to think of the "live TV file(s)" as a sort of page file, like in Windows? From that perspective, you tell Windows where to put it and you're done with it. Windows may resize it at will, utilize it for anything it chooses, you cannot move it or rename it, nor can you utilize it for your own purposes, and you don't need to manage it in any fashion because Windows takes full responsibility for it. It seems that a distinction needs to be made in that Sage locates the file(s) wherever there's available room on a drive, but otherwise, I think this analogy may help to make sense of it all.

No, as far as recording goes, at the time of recording SageTV treats "live" watched recordings the same as scheduled recordings. There is no special treatment in the file system for "live tv". Technically there is no such thing in SageTV as live tv since by it's nature the recordings are time shifted by a few seconds from the real live showing.

There is no difference between watching a scheduled recording "live" versus watching "live tv". As I said before no circular buffers are used during playback of live tv.

[Skirge01]

By that explanation, then it sounds like the following would occur:

1. I use the EPG and tune in channel 2
2. Sage begins recording and playing back a file based on what's on channel 2
3. I use the EPG and tune in channel 4
4. Sage stops recording channel 2
5. Sage keeps that file containing channel 2's recording
6. Sage adds channel 2's partial recording to the "recordings list" (or whatever list contains all your recorded TV)
7. Sage begins recording and playback of channel 4

If I repeat this process for 20 different channels as I channel surf, I'd have 20 recordings that I now have to go manually delete.

This doesn't make sense to me, but that's what I'm getting from your description.

[nick_l]

Basically, you can think of it this way: each individual show equals one recording. It doesn't matter how it is queued up, ie. intelligent recording, automatically scheduled favorite recording, one time manual recording or live tv. Each time Sage starts a show it creates a new file. For instance, if you sit down to watch a night of "live" tv (the thought of which makes me shutter, btw) and choose a show from the guide, sage will start a recording, named for the show and episode, and create the related entry in the sage database. When the show is over, and the next show starts, Sage closes one file, marks it as watched in the DB and Starts a new file. This will cause a second or two of stutter, which causes people some concern at first, but is no big deal.

If you are sitting and channel surfing sage will create a file for each change of the channel, but when you change the channel it will delete the previous file (this is the default behavior, it think. it is possible to change this behavior).

As far as space is concerned, you give sage access to one or more drives and Sage automatically pics the drive with the most space and records the show to it. There is a great FSI (free space indicator) that will tell you how much space is used how much is available, and how much sage will need in the next X number of days. Also sage can delete the oldest files when it needs space, so running out of space shoudnt be a worry. You can also add as many recording drives as you want so as you begin to get low, you can add another instead of having to panic and delete something you havent watched yet.

Nick

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

...
If I repeat this process for 20 different channels as I channel surf, I'd have 20 recordings that I now have to go manually delete.

This doesn't make sense to me

There's a PDF manual that comes with SageTV that explains things like this. See Appendix C, especially its section titled "Automatic Cleanup of Live TV".

There's also a section titled "Watching Live TV" in chapter 2's "Quick Start Guide". New users really ought to check it out since it covers some of the basics.

- Andy

[Skirge01]

Thanks to both you guys for explaining this further. Since I'm not currently recording any TV, I didn't see a need to read up. But, this discussion initially got me confused.

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by Phydeaux

Ok, well fair enough. I can just dedicate a spindle to Sage and anything I want to keep longer term or archive I can just manually move onto the NAS for later reconsumption. A certain amount of housekeeping is to be expected.

There's really very little housekeeping. I have Sage set to delete partial recordings, so when I channel surf it cleans up after itself. When I'm done watching live TV I hit the "stop" button and it stops chewing up disk space and automatically removes the partial recording of what I was just watching.

You can flag items in the UI as "archived" and it won't delete them to make room, and it's pretty intelligent about what to delete. Get one of the cheap WD 1TB green drives and you'll have tons of space. I did have to through a second drive in for the Olympics, but that's not normally an issue (and I have 40-something HD movies recorded and a ton of kids shows).

I wondered if I'd have to move stuff to another dir, but it hasn't been a problem. Buy a big drive and use the archive flag. If you start to run out of space pop another drive in and add it as a recording drive (I did this on the fly while my wife was watching the Olympics on the Extender - she was amazed)

Originally Posted by Phydeaux

But I guess brings up another question with respect to HD Media Extender. Can it be pointed to my NAS as a source of media? Is is NFS/SMB aware?

You don't need to point the extender at anything other than the Sage server. Think of the Extender as part of SageTV, not some seperate device. You point Sage at the drive (local, SMB, whatever your host OS supports) and it will serve the media to the extenders. You get a unified view of everything on your network. I have TV on 2 hard disks in the server, DVDs on another local disk, MP3s and photos on the ReadyNAS via SMB, and HDV camcorder video from my editing workstation in the office via SMB.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by Phydeaux

Agreed re: backing up Blu-Ray. For my regular DVDs I've backed them all up in ISO format and store them on my NAS. I'm then able to watch them on TV via a TViX 6500. Too bad the Sage Media Extender HD won't allow me to access these ISO files, otherwise I could dump the TViX in favour of the Media Extender and drop the component count on my media stand...

I appreciate your help, thanks.
RLW

Just to clarify, no Sage doesn't do ISO files ,but why not convert the ISO's, and just leave them as the original DVD folder structure with the VOB's? The Media Extenders certainly do play VOB's. I have 100+ DVD's in their video/audio folder structure on my file server that Sage plays beautifully. The only caveat is that you need to make sure you remove the encryption....I, of course, only have movies on my file server that I have personally bought a copy of......

[Fuzzy]

Most of the time, unpacking the ISO file will result in less space being used as well, as it will get rid of a lot of the ISO files sytem filler.

[Phydeaux]

Thanks for all the help folks... I'm going to go ahead with Sage TV and HD PVR purchase. I'll get a HD Media Extender whenever they are back in stock...


Slipshod, I'm clear now on how this integrates with hard disk storage.

Paul, that's a good idea keeping the DVD file struture intact instead of in ISO format. Unfortunately I made the decision a while back and now it would mean a few weeks of work to re-rip several hundred movies.

RLW

[Fuzzy]

You shoudlnt' have to re-rip the files, just extract them into folders. I believe WinRAR (as well as most other archiving programs) can extract from .ISO's.