Vista and STV Updates from within SageTV

[Opus4]

We are not going to be able to allow STV updates from within SageTV on Vista when UAC is active because the files in the VirtualStore path will override the newer files in the Program Files path, so older STV files can end up being used after installing a new SageTV version.

This is not an issue when UAC is disabled & files are not put into the VirtualStore, so I'm wondering if there is a reliable way to determine when this is the case. I've been told that this registry setting can be checked:

Hive: HKLM
Key: SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\System
Value: EnableLUA
Type: REG_DWORD
Data: 1 (Default, enabled)
0 (Disabled)

But, that setting may not match the situation when running as the admin & the VirtualStore is being bypassed.

If anyone can provide better insight regarding how to reliably detect when a file will or will not be put into the VirtualStore, I can try to keep the STV Update option available inside the interface when it should be there. Thanks.


Notes:

• Even though the STV Update option will not be available when UAC is active, I will still provide zip files for users to manually install the update. So, the updates will still be available to Vista users, just not always inside the SageTV interface.
  
  
• If you use UAC and have updated the STV in Vista already, then you will need to manually remove the STV files in the VirtualStore before installing the next SageTV version.

- Andy

[jusjoken]

FYI

I run Sage TV Client from my Vista Ultimate PC with UAC enabled (I checked the regestry key and mine is set to 1) and I have not had any issues with any of the updates from within SageTV. I have however, adjusted the security settings on my SageTV folder itself to allow the group "Users" to have full control of the SageTV folder and subfolders.

This is a great feature added to Sage... is there anyway to detect my type of install where writing to the SageTV folders will not be an issue? Perhaps a value in the properties file that overrides the default blocking of a Vista UAC setup?

Ken

[GKusnick]

Disclaimer: I'm not a Vista user, so maybe I'm missing some subtlety.

That said, is it actually necessary to overwrite the STV file in the installation folder? Couldn't you sidestep these issues by downloading the updated STV to somewhere under Documents and Settings\All Users\Shared Documents, and redirecting the .properties file entry to load it from there?

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by jusjoken

is there anyway to detect my type of install where writing to the SageTV folders will not be an issue?

I don't know... that's exactly what I'm asking.

Perhaps a value in the properties file that overrides the default blocking of a Vista UAC setup?

I've already got plans for an override property to force the option to be available on Vista, so if a user knows the update paths are OK, they can force it to be enabled.

Again: as stated in the first post, I will also make zip files available for users to download.

Originally Posted by GKusnick

is it actually necessary to overwrite the STV file in the installation folder? Couldn't you sidestep these issues by downloading the updated STV to somewhere under Documents and Settings\All Users\Shared Documents, and redirecting the .properties file entry to load it from there?

An STV file set update can have many more files than just the STV and there are still places where the default STV is expected to be at a certain path. So, moving/renaming just the STV wouldn't solve the Vista update issue.

And I've already considered the next logical step: while it would be possible to change things so that the STV and all support files are located outside the install directory, that's not going to happen in v6.4.

- Andy

[krikkit]

Originally Posted by Opus4

And I've already considered the next logical step: while it would be possible to change things so that the STV and all support files are located outside the install directory, that's not going to happen in v6.4.

config/data shouldn't be in program directory, microsoft states this since many years in its developer guidelines... so TODO list for 6.5:

store config/data in %appdata%

any other solution would be an ugly workaround and will probably cause more trouble in any future windows version...

[Taddeusz]

Yea, no offense towards the SageTV developers specifically. But best practices for programming under Windows has been ignored for years. This is one of the reasons people get frustrated with Vista. It basically shoves best practices down programmers throats or else they give Vista users a bad experience. I personally see this kind of thing at work quite often. Even our home grown apps ignore best practices and require all sorts of special file system security changes and such to work properly as a limited user. It's an epidemic that has needed a cure for a LONG time.

[Opus4]

It is also precisely the thing I've disliked about Windows for a long time: first, the registry made it practically impossible to move an app from one PC to another, and now the VirtualStore makes it difficult to track your data files. Getting a new PC and installing all my apps on it is a thing I dread since it takes so long to reinstall and configure everything. I'm probably in the minority, but I prefer to keep a program and all of its files all in one location. I keep my PCs for as long as possible simply because I can't stand configuring a new one. (Yes, I'm stuck in my ways from years past.)

Edit: And, if stored as part of the user's data, then you have the problem of each user needing a copy of the STV & all of its files.

Oh well... back to the issue at hand: I've modified the STV to disallow the STV update feature on Vista if the registry setting above has UAC enabled. There is a property that allows it to be overridden.

- Andy

[nielm]

Originally Posted by krikkit

config/data shouldn't be in program directory, microsoft states this since many years in its developer guidelines... so TODO list for 6.5:

store config/data in %appdata%

I agree that storing data in program files is not a good idea, but Vista's Virtual Store is an even worse idea They should have just blocked all non-admin writes... And programs that cannot handle that should be installed somewhere else.

Using %appdata% is not the best plan either, as different users cannot share a SageTV configuration (unless you are using Service mode): Log in as a different user, and that user knows nothing about your Sage recordings... %ALLUSERSPROFILE% cannot be written to by a non-admin either so that's out...

My Solution: set default install path to c:\SageTV! No UAC bullcrap involved...

UAC and virtual store caused me no end of problems for the webserver installer to the point which I gave up! (Executable files in virtual store are ignored; .js files are considered executable, so any .js that is part of the webserver have to be in %program files%, except that I want user-editable .js files to allow the menu to be customised... Oh yes, and the service ignores virtual store no matter which user you run it as!)

Enough wingeing, some useful information:

Opus4: here is a test to see if Virtual store is active:

• Create a new file such as TEMP<uniqueID> in c:\Program Files\SageTV\SageTV\ (make sure that it does not exist first in both locations)
• See if that file exists in %USERPROFILE%\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files\SageTV\SageTV\
• If it is, then VirtualStore is active...

(Note I finally turned UAC off on my vista system... It was too much of a pain with the 500 confirmations everytime you wanted to do something, and programs like 7zip not knowing about requesting permissions)

[jusjoken]

Your change in the recent RC (6.4.6) seems to work. On my Vista Client I was not offered the ability to check for updates. I then existed the Client and set the properties value to true (version/allow_Vista_STV_updates=true) and restarted my Client and was then able to check for updates. Of course there are none available, but I have had no issues in the past so this should still work for me (as my SageTV folder allows updates for all Users).

Ken

[Motofreak75]

OPUS,


Just a thought, but would it be easier to have Sage default install in vista to "c:\sage" instead of C:\program (locked) files. that way STV updates can happen, instead of being trapped by the virtual store? that way users that love UAC can keep it enabled on the vista machines

Moto

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by nielm

My Solution: set default install path to c:\SageTV!

Originally Posted by Motofreak75

Just a thought, but would it be easier to have Sage default install in vista to "c:\sage" instead of C:\program (locked) files.

I'm going to take a cue from Bad Horse and vote "neigh" on this one. Individual users are of course free to install Sage wherever they like, but by default it should install under Program Files where it belongs, not at the top level.

[korben_dallas]

Would SageTV set to "run this program as an administrator" make a difference?

Or how about during SageTV install, give Users group modify & write permissions to the SageTV directory and subdirectories?

[Opus4]

The STV is only checking the registry setting I posted above and the property listed in the release notes. A user can choose to install SageTV in a a different location or run as admin & set the property to force the option to be available on Vista even if the UAC registry value shows it as enabled. Vista installation & update issues will probably be revisited at some point in the future, but most likely not for v6.4.

And, I will post instructions covering the property & manual install instructions the next time there is an STV update.

- Andy

[spvoyek]

There's a 6.4.6 SageTV beta, is there also a 6.4.6 STV? I didn't see a zip file or instructions for Vista users.

[Opus4]

It is in the installer. If you've installed v6.4.6 but SageTV3.xml is reporting itself as an old STV in System Info, then you've got the VirtualStore issue this topic is all about & you should remove the default STV file from the VirtualStore.

- Andy

[korben_dallas]

Originally Posted by Opus4

It is in the installer. If you've installed v6.4.6 but SageTV3.xml is reporting itself as an old STV in System Info, then you've got the VirtualStore issue this topic is all about & you should remove the default STV file from the VirtualStore.

- Andy

Are there guidelines for avoiding this issue after a fresh install? I believe (but I'm not 100% positive) that "Users" group permission on the folder affects the activation of the Virtual Store.