SageTV talk on GreenButton

[cncb]

Originally Posted by Wormhoudt

A couple of things.

1: I am talking about VMC not MCE.
Vista is quite different from XP MCE. I agree with you that the stock configuration of SageMC feels like XP MCE. More like MCE 2004 than 2005, but whatever.

I know - I have used both. My point was that I find it hard to believe that if you just saw the XP MCE interface for the first time after using VMC you would call it "terrible" like you are for SageMC. I think a lot of people actually prefer the UI of XP MCE and are still using it (at least they were when Vista first came out).

The only thing that I liked about the VMC UI is the way it presents music albums (cover art grouped together by year, artist, etc. with vertical text separating the groups). But I don't think the horizontal navigation works very well in most places like when you have text lists (playlists, for example). The text fades out quickly into the next column and it is pretty difficult to find what you are looking for.

In any case, I'm all for more choices for STVs, however, I think this is a big undertaking.

[Wormhoudt]

Originally Posted by cncb

In any case, I'm all for more choices for STVs, however, I think this is a big undertaking.

I couldn't agree more. Not only in terms of the amount of work, but the political battle as well. There are huge number of people that are just fine with Sage's default STV. Making changes, even if they aren't the default will upset some people.

[bastafidli]

Some people already using Sage will always b*tch and moan how things look but at the end they will go along as long no functionality is taken away. And if the change make the default STV more attractive it will only attract new customers. I think this is not a priority for Sage, but could be a great opportunity for some, e.g. provide internship for some up and coming graphic designer, create some concepts and then let community vote and implement them. I bet many of the community would even contribute $$$ to this effort.

[Wormhoudt]

As I was at home preparing to write down my thoughts on the SageMC interface, it occured to me that I am really opening myself up to get beat up here. SO I thought, before I invest hours and hours pouring over the interface, let's test the waters with just the landing page.

The Landing Page
In SageMC the list of menu selections is just a list of text. The items in the menu are not really stylized in any way. Just a list of textual options. In VMC the unselected options both below and above the selected item fade away. In VMC ,as I cycle through the options, there are animations and the list itself moves rather than the just changing the background image of each menu item. It also magnifies the selected item in the list. The magnification is also animated. Even the background in VMC is animated. If I stop moving my mouse the playback controls move onto the screen, and as I resume navigating the menu they move away. Not just appearing and disappearing, but actual animations where said controls move on to and off of the screen. Also the VMC main menu has a sort of PS3 crossbar sort of feel to it. Each main item that is discovered by navigating up and down then has sub options by going left and right. It allows there to be quite a few destinations from the home screen, without it feeling cluttered.

Back in SageMC, each image that I am presented with for each menu choice doesn’t really match the other images. What I mean by that is I get a Sony camcorder when I mouse over “My Videos” that is photorealistic, but I get a clip art sort of image for “Play DVD” of a DVD. It’s obvious that they aren’t from the same source. With VMC , any image related to a menu option is contained within the menu item itself. The non selected sub menu items get grayed out (or blued out in this case). So as a new item is selected it gets magnified and goes to full color. A very slick effect. It looks greatly polished to me.

I think the starkest thing about the SageMC home screen is that it feels like a web page or a powerpoint slide. There are a few animations as I move from item to item, but nothing like the VMC interface. I realize that what I am about to say isn’t true, but it feels like someone went around the web and found a background image and found a background image for the selected menu item, and found the image for each section and them used them on the home screen. VMC feels like all of the images were created by the same person with the same intent. They all seem to work together.

[Wormhoudt]

Sounds. I have read some complaints about the animation related sounds in the VMC interface, but I rather like it. The are pretty unobtrusive in my opnion. Given how highly animated the VMC interface is it seems to fit in quite nicely.

[bialio]

Originally Posted by Wormhoudt

The Landing Page

I agree with everything you said here. The default theme in SageMC is not unified in it's presentation.

----

However, if you are judging SageMC by the default theme, you are missing alot! I favor CenterSage (I'm the author, so of course I like it ) However, the Foofaraw theme and iTV theme are ones I've used in the past also. All of these present a more unified front, as well as some pretty slick animations.

The key with animations is you have to enable them.

btl.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by bastafidli

Some people already using Sage will always b*tch and moan how things look but at the end they will go along as long no functionality is taken away.

I don't know, I think we're a pretty flexible bunch. If you really look at the comments from "us" Sage users defending the interface, it's not that we're in love with it and are opposed to change, it's just a simple matter that we've come to accept and understand it, and often have a hard time seeing faults other (new) users do.

I think if you started a poll, you'd find the vast, vast majority would accept/welcome a new look, most of us are here for the functionality, not the appearance.

Originally Posted by Wormhoudt

As I was at home preparing to write down my thoughts on the SageMC interface, it occured to me that I am really opening myself up to get beat up here. SO I thought, before I invest hours and hours pouring over the interface, let's test the waters with just the landing page.

As with any critique, you've got to be prepared to take your lumps, but I think you'll find that if you provide a well thought out, specific writeup, you'll get constructive feedback and not a flamefest.

The Landing Page
In SageMC the list of menu selections is just a list of text. The items in the menu are not really stylized in any way. Just a list of textual options. In VMC the unselected options both below and above the selected item fade away. In VMC ,as I cycle through the options, there are animations and the list itself moves rather than the just changing the background image of each menu item. It also magnifies the selected item in the list. The magnification is also animated. Even the background in VMC is animated. If I stop moving my mouse the playback controls move onto the screen, and as I resume navigating the menu they move away. Not just appearing and disappearing, but actual animations where said controls move on to and off of the screen.

OK, here's your first lump, but take it as a serious question. I look at all that, and all I see is "useless" fluff. By "useless" I mean it doesn't serve a purpose, doesn't add functionality. It might look cool, but it does it really improve the experience? I know I always disable the core animation system in Sage because I find the animations get in the way.

And most importantly, does the lack of it really stop people from using it?

Also the VMC main menu has a sort of PS3 crossbar sort of feel to it. Each main item that is discovered by navigating up and down then has sub options by going left and right. It allows there to be quite a few destinations from the home screen, without it feeling cluttered.

The "crossbar" interface seems to be popping up all over the place lately.

Back in SageMC, each image that I am presented with for each menu choice doesn’t really match the other images. What I mean by that is I get a Sony camcorder when I mouse over “My Videos” that is photorealistic, but I get a clip art sort of image for “Play DVD” of a DVD. It’s obvious that they aren’t from the same source. With VMC , any image related to a menu option is contained within the menu item itself. The non selected sub menu items get grayed out (or blued out in this case). So as a new item is selected it gets magnified and goes to full color. A very slick effect. It looks greatly polished to me.

FWIW, I think different SageMC themes have better "matching" sets of Icons. But this brings up a point I think I should make about why I think the comparison to the stock STV is more useful. What you're doing here is comparing VMC, a product of a huge development team, to a user-created "add on", and on top of that, one with other-user added skins. Seems a little "unfair" to compare a corporate product to a user "skin".

I think the starkest thing about the SageMC home screen is that it feels like a web page or a powerpoint slide. There are a few animations as I move from item to item, but nothing like the VMC interface. I realize that what I am about to say isn’t true, but it feels like someone went around the web and found a background image and found a background image for the selected menu item, and found the image for each section and them used them on the home screen.

That's probably not too far off on the source of the images for some of the SageMC themes. From when I used SageMC, you should try the Blue Steel themes, they seem to have a more cohesive set of icons.

VMC feels like all of the images were created by the same person with the same intent. They all seem to work together.

Just make sure you know what you're comparing, some of the SageMC themes are just that, themes with "random" images thrown together, while others are more "planned" themes.

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by stanger89

OK, here's your first lump, but take it as a serious question. I look at all that, and all I see is "useless" fluff. By "useless" I mean it doesn't serve a purpose, doesn't add functionality. It might look cool, but it does it really improve the experience? I know I always disable the core animation system in Sage because I find the animations get in the way.

And most importantly, does the lack of it really stop people from using it?

It doesn't stop them from using it, but it does stop them from wanting to use it. Eye Candy sells - just look at which movies, cars, games, etc are popular. The landing page is your first impression, like when you walk in the door for a job interview. For me, the only reason I'm using SageTV at all is because of the R5000HD (how I first found out about it) and as much as I wanted a PVR with the R5000 I still didn't do it until I saw Brent's blog post showing off SageMC. For me, Sage almost didn't get the job because of the first impression, even with a great personal reference.

Cheers,
Slipshod

[bialio]

http://www.pixelshell.com/blog/ui-design-animation/

This dude has some interesting things to say about animation.

Having said this, I think animations can work, and indeed, I recommend using subtle animations throughout a visual UI. Animations can look beautiful, and beautiful interfaces are pleasant to use. If the person enjoys using the UI, they will be less stressed and more focused—they will like using your application, and that is of course very important if you wish to gain happy users and customers. Animations are not only used for eye candy, they can be used for function. Animations can attract the user’s attention to an area of the interface, indicating something has changed or needs changing. Intelligently designed, animations can be used to grab the users hand and lead them through the interface—all by catching their attention from one item to the next. Be careful not to overdo it, as you will risk causing delay and/or confusion.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Wormhoudt

Sounds. I have read some complaints about the animation related sounds in the VMC interface, but I rather like it. The are pretty unobtrusive in my opnion. Given how highly animated the VMC interface is it seems to fit in quite nicely.

In SageMC you can enable menu sounds in the SageMC settings page
Settings>SageMC>Global UI>Sounds>Enabled
I've never been a fan of menu sounds on a HTPC though.

What are the menu sounds in VMC? If you use SageMC, you can use those sounds by copying those menu sounds to this folder:
SageTV\SageTV\STVs\SageTV3\SageMCE\Sounds
You would need to replace the wave files there with the ones you like and name them the same as the default ones originally in that directory.

DISCLAIMER: You cannot enable menu sounds on extenders

[Brent]

whew, this could be pretty involved and as you say "political". Still I think everyone who has posted has some good points.

Originally Posted by Wormhoudt

The Landing Page
In SageMC the list of menu selections is just a list of text.

In SageMC you can change that menu, the list of text to be

• goto: right-click>customized screen layout>
• highlight the "menu(text)" item & select "customize"
• You'll get another menu that lets you change the menu style from "text" to "icons" to "fixed focus."

while you're there, play around with those settings just to get an idea of what you can and can't do. It's really kind of cool how much you can make it your own.

The items in the menu are not really stylized in any way. Just a list of textual options. In VMC the unselected options both below and above the selected item fade away.

I like the way that works in VMC - put that down as something I don't think (someone correct me if I'm wrong) you can do with SageTV or SageMC. I'd like to see it as an option.

[quote]In VMC ,as I cycle through the options, there are animations and the list itself moves rather than the just changing the background image of each menu item.[quote]
There are animations you can do in SageTV, but again not as good as VMC's on this one I think. Another improvement that could be added - albeit not really all that functional. Still I like the idea of that being an option.

It also magnifies the selected item in the list. The magnification is also animated.

I really would like to see this in SageTV - this one alone really does give the UI look a little extra something.

Even the background in VMC is animated. If I stop moving my mouse the playback controls move onto the screen, and as I resume navigating the menu they move away. Not just appearing and disappearing, but actual animations where said controls move on to and off of the screen.

Not sure this one is something I'd like - but I guess I'd have to see it to totally understand.

Also the VMC main menu has a sort of PS3 crossbar sort of feel to it. Each main item that is discovered by navigating up and down then has sub options by going left and right. It allows there to be quite a few destinations from the home screen, without it feeling cluttered.

Can't do it currently in SageTV or MC - I'd like to see this as an option. Should be able to do it in SageMC right Meinmaui & Flachbar ?

[quote]Back in SageMC, each image that I am presented with for each menu choice doesn’t really match the other images. What I mean by that is I get a Sony camcorder when I mouse over “My Videos” that is photorealistic, but I get a clip art sort of image for “Play DVD” of a DVD. It’s obvious that they aren’t from the same source. [/quote
As mentioned in posts above, try out some of the "themes" in SageMC and SageTV. I think you'll find many of the icon sets better "matched." I like the BlueTwo Steel and CenterStage Themes among others.

With VMC , any image related to a menu option is contained within the menu item itself. The non selected sub menu items get grayed out (or blued out in this case). So as a new item is selected it gets magnified and goes to full color. A very slick effect. It looks greatly polished to me.

Another one I'd like to see in SageTV & SageMC

Great start - I'm keeping track and I think we can come up with a list of doable feature requests for the future. And who knows what the user-developers can come up with either - you never know.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Stanger89

I look at all that, and all I see is "useless" fluff. By "useless" I mean it doesn't serve a purpose, doesn't add functionality. It might look cool, but it does it really improve the experience? I know I always disable the core animation system in Sage because I find the animations get in the way.

I see it as "form" and not function. I think function is our primary concern, but form is very important also. Where we can add nice-to-look-at form to an already excellent functioning HTPC, what's not to like? Especially if these are made as options that can be turned on or off?

And most importantly, does the lack of it really stop people from using it?

Yes, it definitely does for some. I can't quantify how many, but I know it kept me away for a very long time. I also know the first-impression thing keeps many VMC, MCE and BTV users from giving SageTV a decent shot. Admittedly this is partly due to not understanding how to get things to work the way they expect them to, but another part of it is the look of the UI.

I should note that I'm very happy with SageTV along with the SageMC UI. I really do love how it works and my family is even happy with how it looks. The work that MeinMaui and Flachbar has done with the more recent updates to SageMC helped tremendously too. I just think we shouldn't dismiss making the UI better without really considering the possibilities here.

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by Brent

Can't do it currently in SageTV or MC - I'd like to see this as an option. Should be able to do it in SageMC right Meinmaui & Flachbar ?

Yeah, but in practice what kind of things would you even put into those submenus? I've used VMC and I'd be hard pressed to say its any better/worse than just a regular dynamic menu new submenu.

[mickp]

I like the T menu in VMC along with the heavy use of thumbnails. If not for the deal breaking lack of softsled (and possibly other defficiencies that I'm not aware of) I'd likely have gone straight from btv to vmc.

Could this proof of concept menu from Stanger be the basis of a new menu structure for mc?

Mick.

[kingwr]

Here are my ramblings on the subject: (I started the "Why Not SageTV Thread" on TGB)

As a long time user of Windows 2005 MCE and having Vista MC on my office computer, I am accustomed to those interfaces. VMC was a big upgrade to the UI, not only in look and feel, but in capability through the implementation of MCML. MCML provides a language for developers to integrate plug-ins into VMC utilizing the graphics, navigation, scrolloing, animation, and reflections functions built into VMC. This provides for a very consistent interface across VMC and third-party plug-ins.

SageMC is acceptable to me as a replacement for Windows 2005 MCE. However, SageMC is still an add-on. So (1) I don't think I can use SageTV studio to modify the SageMC interface, (2) the plug-ins must come in a SageMC flavor to get a consistent interface, and (3) some menus take you back to the ugly (sorry) standard UI.

It would be nice if a layer could be removed between SageTV and SageMC and the SageTV could natively support the skins of SageMC, and plug-in development and SageStudio would be skin agnostic.

As far as switching to SageTV, for me the jury is still out. I have not switched to VMC because the only thing I was getting in replacing my extenders and software was the new UI, but not HD from DirecTV. Plus VMC runs on Vista (plech!) However, after 2 weeks of playing with SageTV, I just didn't get the feeling that the interface, even with SageMC, was as refined as MCE 2005. And, it lacks "My Movies" and "mControl" plug-ins or equivalents. So I could (potentially) gain HD (until they plug the analog hole) but I would be giving up a lot, too.

[bialio]

There are animations you can do in SageTV, but again not as good as VMC's on this one I think. Another improvement that could be added - albeit not really all that functional. Still I like the idea of that being an option.

You can get the text menu to move, similar to the MS product. It's one of the options in the Dynamic Menus ("MCE Style menu" or something to that effect)

Also the VMC main menu has a sort of PS3 crossbar sort of feel to it. Each main item that is discovered by navigating up and down then has sub options by going left and right. It allows there to be quite a few destinations from the home screen, without it feeling cluttered.

While not possible currently in SageMC, the basic pieces are in place. So this wouldn't be hard for Mike to add. Personally I'm not convinced that the cross bar approach is really that useful. I wouldn't use it, as I'm more of a minimalist in my preference. Less is more, and all that.

I really would like to see this in SageTV - this one alone really does give the UI look a little extra something.

This is more or less supported - at least in the fixed focus and icon menus. The animation from is definitely there, as is the magnification. I don't know if in the Text mode menu these are supported.

Another one I'd like to see in SageTV & SageMC

Non selected items in icon menus can have separate alpha values. If you look at the CenterSage layout, the items on the edge of the screen are partially transparent, and become more so until they reach focus where they are fully opaque.

btl.

[bialio]

Originally Posted by kingwr

SageMC is acceptable to me as a replacement for Windows 2005 MCE. However, SageMC is still an add-on. So (1) I don't think I can use SageTV studio to modify the SageMC interface, (2) the plug-ins must come in a SageMC flavor to get a consistent interface, and (3) some menus take you back to the ugly (sorry) standard UI.

Well, as far as number 1 is concerned, I'm constantly modifying SageMC in Studio. Everything in SageTV can be modified in Studio.

There are exceptions, but most plugins are available for both SageMC and the default STV.

EDIT - just to clarify, SageMC isn't an add-on. It's a replacement GUI. STV is the term. The default STV and SageMC are both full featured, complete GUI's (STVs) that work on top of the SageTV core.

btl.

[bialio]

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

Yeah, but in practice what kind of things would you even put into those submenus? I've used VMC and I'd be hard pressed to say its any better/worse than just a regular dynamic menu new submenu.

Each of the main options on the main menu has that list of items that show up when you double click. That's what would make a Crossbar interface easy to add.

btl.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by kingwr

SageMC is still an add-on. So (1) I don't think I can use SageTV studio to modify the SageMC interface

As Bialio mentioned, you can use SageTV studio to modify, improve and add-on to the SageMC interface so no problem there.

(2) the plug-ins must come in a SageMC flavor to get a consistent interface

Most plugins are either SageMC or SageTV or both. And the interfaces for those plugins are typically very consistent with the interface.

(3) some menus take you back to the ugly (sorry) standard UI.

The only menu that does is the advanced settings which you wouldn't go to very often except when first setting things up. My family never has access to that menu option as I hide it from their view to avoid them messing with things...

It would be nice if a layer could be removed between SageTV and SageMC and the SageTV could natively support the skins of SageMC, and plug-in development and SageStudio would be skin agnostic.

Agreed.

it lacks "My Movies"

In SageMC you can get many of the functionality of My Movies. Admittedly it's not as good yet, but it works.

and "mControl" plug-ins or equivalents.

What's mControl?

I understand your predicament. I do think you'd be happy with SageTV in the long run. I don't see the analog hole being "plugged" for quite a while. It will at least be well after Microsoft decides how many more machines they make their customers buy to get the next "feature" they keep promising people.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Brent

What's mControl?

I believe mControl is a home automation interface that plugs in to MCE. I do know there are some guys here working on some very robust HA interfaces for sage, though as I currently don't have an HA system up and running, I have not toyed with them. If/When I get around to doing some automation, it will probably become my reason for delving into SageTV Studio.