HD PVR - Inferior visual quality

[sic0048]

That screen shot is not 1280x720 resolution, so it cannot be exactly what is being recorded. It might be indistinguishable from what you are seeing on the TV, but there are too many variable without having other screen shots to compare it to. Perhaps your source material isn't as good as others, etc. All I am saying is that it is hard for people to compare or comment on the quality of that picture when we don't have anything to compare it to.

But I also don't think anyone is trying to argue that the HD-PVR is a perfect picture. It isn't going to be quite as good as watching directly from the STB. I think everyone agrees that the best picture currently available through Sage is a R-5000 moded box which is going to provide a better picture than the HD-PVR. However, you are claiming that the picture you experience is as bad a SD with you HD-PVR and people are saying their experiences are quite different. That while the picture may not be quite as good as watching HD TV directly from the box, it is almost as good and clearly better than SD.

Since you are on DirectTV, the R5000 box isn't a good option for you. So I guess there are three options for you: 1) punt the HD-PVR and go back to the DirectTV DRV solutions, 2) Try and take some of the suggestions made here and see if there isn't some setting on your computer that is preventing a good picture or 3) Suck it up and live with it as is.

More comments on #2. It is my understanding that the HD-PVR is simply recording the component stream from the HD Box to the HD. That is ALL that it does. It is your computer that has to take that stream of information and render it and make it play. So I don't understand why you continue to blame the HD-PVR over your computer. There is about a 99% chance that the issue is with the playback of the stream of data, not the data itself. Many of the people here are using a HD-100 for playback, so there is not computer used in the playback and therefore the variables that might cause an issue are greatly lowered. That is probably why so many people are happy with the HD-PVR. Because it actually does a good job of recording the stream and they are using a HD-100 to view it.

If you are going to continue to use the computer for playback (and I'm not suggesting you stop) then you need to be willing to make some changes and tweaks to try to get a better picture.

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by sic0048

That screen shot is not 1280x720 resolution, so it cannot be exactly what is being recorded. It might be indistinguishable from what you are seeing on the TV, but there are too many variable without having other screen shots to compare it to. Perhaps your source material isn't as good as others, etc. All I am saying is that it is hard for people to compare or comment on the quality of that picture when we don't have anything to compare it to.

I don't know what you're doing, but that screen shot is *exactly* 1280x720. And all you need to compare it is to tune into The Weather Channel HD and wait for a similar screen to come up. I've already said that the image is an accurate representation - and that's all that's needed in order to trust what the screencap represents.

Originally Posted by sic0048

More comments on #2. It is my understanding that the HD-PVR is simply recording the component stream from the HD Box to the HD. That is ALL that it does. It is your computer that has to take that stream of information and render it and make it play. So I don't understand why you continue to blame the HD-PVR over your computer. There is about a 99% chance that the issue is with the playback of the stream of data, not the data itself.

You're incorrect. The HD PVR is not just recording the component stream, it's re-compressing it all over again. *That's* why I am inclined to believe that the HD PVR is the source of the problem. It's not a 99% chance that the issue is with the playback - especially since I've tried playing it back on multiple players, using multiple codecs, on multiple machines. It's a 99% chance that the problem is with the HD PVR's re-encoding.

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by Brent

I thought you said you weren't using SageTV for playback? Unless you are, then its very difficult to compare the steps you're taking to get it to work vs the steps most of us (me included) took to get it to work. If you are using SageTV for this now and are getting the same results then I'm mistaken (wouldn't be the first time ).

In general, I was not using SageTV for playback, so I could rule that out. But I did try watching through Sage, choosing multiple decoders in order to see if that would correct anything - which it did not.

Originally Posted by Brent

It's difficult to compare without seeing the exact same screen on my television set at the same time I'm looking at your screen-shot, but to my untrained eye, your screen-shot shows an almost fuzzy quality to the graphics. It's not terrible, but doesn't look quite right either. Let me make a similar screen-shot tonight and we'll compare.

And I agree with the other posters here that it would be helpful if you uploaded a video clip so we could really see what you're seeing.

I'd be glad to, but the board limits attachments to 720k, and it's a bit tough to get a vid clip to fit that.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

I'd be glad to, but the board limits attachments to 720k, and it's a bit tough to get a vid clip to fit that.

I uploaded a few of mine & a few from others with test clips in this post if you want to check them out to compare PQ. The way I uploaded the test clips was to use sendspace which is a free way to share a larger file like that. Do that and then post the url to sendspace so we can see the video.

& I'll do a little more comparing tonight and post back.

Thanks!

[CyRex]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

But I did try watching through Sage, choosing multiple decoders in order to see if that would correct anything - which it did not.

Since I don't think you have explicitly said so, I have to ask: Have you tried using the ArcSoft decoder? This requires adding / updating the following line in your properties file:

videoframe/h264_video_decoder_filter=ArcSoft Video Decoder

Also, I'll have to agree that the screen shot you posted looks a bit washed out, and that I do not see anything comparable to that on my system. I have both an HD-PVR and an HDHR, and I can say that the PQ difference between them is slight.

-Dan

[sic0048]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

I don't know what you're doing, but that screen shot is *exactly* 1280x720.

Sorry, originally I was expecting a 1920x1080 sized picture. I posted my comment and then realized that you were recording in 720p so I edited my post. I should have thought to look at the properties for the picture and did not. My appologies.

[mayamaniac]

As sic0048 said, the HD Extender does improve picture quality over software decoders, which for many users here, the HD-100 is the preferred playback device for the HD-PVR. I can see a vast improvement playing back shows on the computer vs. the HD-100. Both color and sharpness are better on the HD-100. I can probably adjust the PC settings to produce better quality but have no need to do so as I don't often watch SageTV on the PC, that's what the HD-100 is for.

A bit off topic, but does the DTV box only output 1280x720? Can it be configured to output to full resolution at 1080i? Also, how is DTV downscaling 1080i to 720? Is it downscaled and streamed to the STB or is it the STB that's doing the downscaling? I know ABC broadcasts in 720p but most of the other networks broadcast in 1080i.

[phelme]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

A bit off topic, but does the DTV box only output 1280x720? Can it be configured to output to full resolution at 1080i? Also, how is DTV downscaling 1080i to 720? Is it downscaled and streamed to the STB or is it the STB that's doing the downscaling? I know ABC broadcasts in 720p but most of the other networks broadcast in 1080i.

he's posted earlier that he doesn't like 1080i, moving material is too much like viewing through a comb is what he said. So he has the DTV output hard set to 720P. Which is what his TV decoder would be seeing as well of course. I have mine the same way to keep the files easier to manage on the decoder side.

Twinkle, have you tried tweaking any of the decoder settings within ArcSoft Capture to see if that can improve things?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by phelme

he's posted earlier that he doesn't like 1080i, moving material is too much like viewing through a comb is what he said.

Frankly, something it wrong (somewhere in the chain) if 1080i is combing. Whatever he's using (either the PC or the display directly) should be deinterlacing 1080i.

[Twinkle]

The HD PVR's were combing after I changed the output resolution of the DTV boxes to 1080i. I discovered that the HD PVR needed to be fully shut down and restarted in order to accept this change gracefully.

After doing that, I'm no longer getting the combing, the resolution is better (I don't know if I'd say it's perfect, but it is better) - however, I'm getting a lot of choppy and stuttery video.

If I can get the color settings to work and get the video to playback smoothly, I might be able to work with this.


First up would be the stuttering video - and to answer an earlier question, yes, I've tried the ArcSoft decoder. I didn't need to add the line to the properties file, as it was already there.

But the stuttering is driving me nuts, because addressing it is so esoteric. Earlier, the stuttering was mild - I changed the decoder from ArcSoft to WinDVD, and the stuttering got worse. So I changed it back, but the stuttering stayed worse. Restarting sage didn't help, nor did restarting the HD PVR. I've got the whole machine rebooting now. Things like this make it a royal pain to troubleshoot.

[phelme]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

First up would be the stuttering video - and to answer an earlier question, yes, I've tried the ArcSoft decoder. I didn't need to add the line to the properties file, as it was already there.

But the stuttering is driving me nuts, because addressing it is so esoteric. Earlier, the stuttering was mild - I changed the decoder from ArcSoft to WinDVD, and the stuttering got worse. So I changed it back, but the stuttering stayed worse. Restarting sage didn't help, nor did restarting the HD PVR. I've got the whole machine rebooting now. Things like this make it a royal pain to troubleshoot.

I've found that the HD-PVR stuttering video could often be caused by the audio decoder in the DirectShow chain. What do you have it set to?

And I assume this is using Overlay mode not VMR9?

Is this stuttering only within Sage or does it show through the ArcSoft Capture or GraphEdit applications as well?

[davin]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Frankly, something it wrong (somewhere in the chain) if 1080i is combing. Whatever he's using (either the PC or the display directly) should be deinterlacing 1080i.

My vista machine playing back 1080i streams recorded on the HDPVR has combing and does not deinterlace correctly. My HDPVR is useless unless I want to watch recordings in WMP instead of SageTV. Sage support said that this is because the arcsoft decoders don't support hardware decoding in VMR9 in vista and that a fix will be forthcoming at some point.

So I'll ask... does anyone have HDPVR playback of 1080i in sagetv on a vista machine working and deinterlacing well? If so, what's your setup?

[Taddeusz]

I just got my HD-PVR this past Monday. My PC client is on Vista SP1 x64. Initially I couldn't figure out how to get my STB to output anything other than 1080i. I'll have to check again but I don't believe I was seeing any combing issues with the Arcsoft decoder. I have my client set for VMR9 with FSE off (FSE only screws things up on Vista). Of course, when I initially set it up I was using the PowerDVD 8 Ultra decoder and was seeing choppy playback. The next day I installed Arcsoft on that machine and adjusted my dx merits so that it would be used by default rather than the Cyberlink decoder. Everything else seems to play ok as well.

I'll have to verify again this evening though. It seems, though, that my client decided to dump it's configuration file this morning when I booted my computer. Not sure why. I neither had the time nor the patience to set it all back up again this morning. It sucks because I'd just gotten my USB-UIRT moved from my server and configured to accept commands from my Hauppauge remote.

Anyway... as far as picture quality goes I'm quite pleased with it. Even on SD channels switching from recording to my PVR 150 via svid to recording to my HD-PVR via component was a notable increase in picture quality. I have the native resolution going to my HD-PVR so 480i will record as 480i, etc. IMHO, it looks excellent. Maybe not as good as if the STB were directly connected to my TV but the losses are acceptable to me. My PC client is connected to just a 20" wide LCD monitor. My (SD)TV is connect to an HD100 and has an excellent picture quality with the HD-PVR recordings. Honestly I'm quite smitten.

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by phelme

I've found that the HD-PVR stuttering video could often be caused by the audio decoder in the DirectShow chain. What do you have it set to?

And I assume this is using Overlay mode not VMR9?

Is this stuttering only within Sage or does it show through the ArcSoft Capture or GraphEdit applications as well?

Assuming that there's nothing special required in between configuration changes (like rebooting), I've tried the default Sage audio decoder, as well as AC3Filter. Everything was set from within Sage.

Sage is in Overlay mode because the stuttering and choppiness is much worse in VMR9 (eventually, I'd like to solve that as well).

If I take one of the TS files and play it with MPC HC, it plays a lot smoother - but not necessarily perfectly (and there's that bug where playing one of Sage's TS files using MPC on a machine with Sage causes the audio to be out of sync).

But if I take that same TS file and play it through the ArcSoft Theater player, the stuttering is quite bad again - similar, if not a bit worse than how it plays in Sage.

And I've never used GraphEdit, so I can't tell you about that.


Is it a given that the decoders set in Sage are the ones actually being used?

[phelme]

you can find GraphEdit here. it's a developer tool to determine what decoding filters & devices for audio & video will be used to play a particular media type.

what's cool about it is one can mix & match decoders in the "graph" to find out which works best. but in your case, I'd just right-click on one of your .ts files and open in it in GraphEdit to see what default decoders are being used to play back the file. It could be there is some merit problem with a decoder.

A 9600 on XP shouldn't be choppy. What's your CPU?

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by phelme

you can find GraphEdit here. it's a developer tool to determine what decoding filters & devices for audio & video will be used to play a particular media type.

what's cool about it is one can mix & match decoders in the "graph" to find out which works best. but in your case, I'd just right-click on one of your .ts files and open in it in GraphEdit to see what default decoders are being used to play back the file. It could be there is some merit problem with a decoder.

I thought changing the settings in Sage causes it to manually override whatever the defaults would have been. But in any case, here are the results:


Video -> ffdshow Video Decoder -> Video Renderer (VMR Input 0)

Audio -> ArcSoft Audio Decoder HD -> Default DirectSound Device


Perhaps it might be more helpful if there's a way to tell what Sage is actually using while it's playing - but I'm not sure how to do that.

Originally Posted by phelme

A 9600 on XP shouldn't be choppy. What's your CPU?

Intel Quad-Core Q9450 2.66 GHz.

[MrD]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

Excuse me? The screen shot I uploaded wasn't scaled down one bit. It's an accurate representation of what I see on my TV.

It's a JPEG though... by definition sharp lines will be softened...

The text is a little fuzzy. On my rig the channels still look sharp, this is through an HD extender on a 55" Diamond Mitsu and a 37" Plasma Panny.

The wife could not tell the difference between a "live" H21 and the HD-PVR... then again she's blind as a bat

[MrD]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

But the stuttering is driving me nuts, because addressing it is so esoteric. Earlier, the stuttering was mild - I changed the decoder from ArcSoft to WinDVD, and the stuttering got worse. So I changed it back, but the stuttering stayed worse. Restarting sage didn't help, nor did restarting the HD PVR. I've got the whole machine rebooting now. Things like this make it a royal pain to troubleshoot.

The only fix I found for the stuttering on a PC was to switch from 1080i to 720p.

I am running a Opteron 185 (dual core 2.6ghz)

The H.264 software decoders are just not ready for prime-time at 1080i.

[MrD]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

Video -> ffdshow Video Decoder -> Video Renderer (VMR Input 0)

Audio -> ArcSoft Audio Decoder HD -> Default DirectSound Device


Intel Quad-Core Q9450 2.66 GHz.

Ack!

Get rid of ffdshow.

I have

Video -> CoreAVC Video -> VMR
Audio -> CoreAAC Audio -> DirectSound

again 1080i stutters in SageTV so a changed to 720p.

Zoom Player played things at 1080i pretty well, but if I tried to advance the video it would freeze.

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by MrD

It's a JPEG though... by definition sharp lines will be softened...

The text is a little fuzzy. On my rig the channels still look sharp, this is through an HD extender on a 55" Diamond Mitsu and a 37" Plasma Panny.

The screen shot was saved to a BMP and then converted into a JPEG (because of the forum's size limits) on maximum settings. In any case, the technicalities don't matter - I'm telling you that when you look at the JPEG, that's what I see on the TV.

Things look better at 1080i, I just need to see if I can overcome the remaining issues.