HD PVR - Inferior visual quality

[stanger89]

Maybe you could post a screenshot to show us what you're seeing (even just an un-resized crop of a problem area).

Or if you've got an ATSC card, try recording the same thing with that, and the HD PVR via the STB (assuming it's getting the signal OTA and not via satellite) and compare them and see how they compare when played through the same player.

Also, how's your deinterlacing being done with MPC-HC (are you in DXVA mode to a good graphics device)? If it's doing a simple BOB that would have a noticable effect on HD video. What's your display and how's it deinterlace 1080i? What resolution are you running?

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

In my experience, sharpness can be affected by video decoders and settings and your hardware.

Still, the picture quality can be affected by video decoders and settings and your hardware. And its like your audio CD example below, if you put a lossless CD into a crappy player with crappy speakers, it will sound lousy.

Okay, I can work with that.

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Yeah, but to me, when you say its like "watching SD", that's like saying the audio CD sounds like an AM radio. From what I see on my HD-PVR, it's no where close to SD. While to most people on this forum, the HD-PVR quality is more like 320kbps MP3, meaning its not lossless CD, but it's pretty damn close.

Well, what I'm saying is that what I'm seeing isn't that close. And I never said that it *couldn't* be an issue caused by my setup, just that I hadn't found anything yet that was setup related that was the cause of the degredation I was seeing.

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Start with playing back into SageTV. Set you video decoders to Arsoft in SageTV. And set it to VMR9. And then put it on full screen and playback an HD show that looks bad. Then make a screenshot of it. Then post that image so we can see what you are talking about.

I'll be happy to, as soon as I can get that to work. Changing my settings from Overlay to VMR9 causes severe choppiness in the video. Searching the forums, I see that's not uncommon - but I haven't found any clear solution as of yet. My hard drive was formatted with the appropriate block size, I've got 0-2% CPU utilization during recording, and FSE makes no difference one way or the other. If you think VMR9 will make a difference in the sharpness, than I need to make it work before I can evaluate that and get a proper screenshot.

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Maybe you could post a screenshot to show us what you're seeing (even just an un-resized crop of a problem area).

If people are saying that VMR9 vs Overlay matters in terms of sharpness, than I need to get VMR9 to work properly before I can do this.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Or if you've got an ATSC card, try recording the same thing with that, and the HD PVR via the STB (assuming it's getting the signal OTA and not via satellite) and compare them and see how they compare when played through the same player.

Unfortunately, I don't - the HD PVRs are all I have to do a capture.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Also, how's your deinterlacing being done with MPC-HC (are you in DXVA mode to a good graphics device)? If it's doing a simple BOB that would have a noticable effect on HD video. What's your display and how's it deinterlace 1080i? What resolution are you running?

I don't know if DXVA is active or not - my experience with AV codecs is limited - but I can play HD captures others have done and have it perfectly sharp using the same settings that I'm viewing the HD PVR captures, so I don't think that's a likely culprit.

As for the other info, I've got an nVidia 9600 GT running at 1360x768, which is the native resolution of the HDTV that's connected. The DTV H21 receivers are set to 720p (As I said earlier, I can't stand 1080i - anything moving looks like I'm looking at it through a hair comb).

[phelme]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

If people are saying that VMR9 vs Overlay matters in terms of sharpness, than I need to get VMR9 to work properly before I can do this.

Unfortunately, I don't - the HD PVRs are all I have to do a capture.

I don't know if DXVA is active or not - my experience with AV codecs is limited - but I can play HD captures others have done and have it perfectly sharp using the same settings that I'm viewing the HD PVR captures, so I don't think that's a likely culprit.

As for the other info, I've got an nVidia 9600 GT running at 1360x768, which is the native resolution of the HDTV that's connected. The DTV H21 receivers are set to 720p (As I said earlier, I can't stand 1080i - anything moving looks like I'm looking at it through a hair comb).

No, you don't need VMR9 for sharpness, that mostly gets you the fancy transparent graphics. Overlay is fine. Though some say their hardware is helped in terms of performance by using VMR9 with H.264 decoding.

You answered something I was going to ask you, how do HD-PVR samples from other users look on your setup and you say they are nice and sharp. So playback is obviously not an issue. What setting do you have for recording quality and what's the average size of an hour long show you have recorded? It will also say in the recording information what resolution it was recorded with. I'm just checking to see if something is getting downrezzed on your DirecTV receiver.

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by phelme

You answered something I was going to ask you, how do HD-PVR samples from other users look on your setup and you say they are nice and sharp. So playback is obviously not an issue. What setting do you have for recording quality and what's the average size of an hour long show you have recorded? It will also say in the recording information what resolution it was recorded with. I'm just checking to see if something is getting downrezzed on your DirecTV receiver.

Actually, I didn't say anything about HD PVR samples from others - I was referring to some HD captures I had come across, but I have no idea what equipment was used to capture them. For me to compare, I'd need a screenshot or video sample of one of TWC's graphics screens captured at 720p.

As for my recording quality, I have it set to the proper maximum for the HD PVRs, by adding this line to the properties file:

mmc/python2_encoding/HDPVRMax=videobitrate\=13500000|vbr\=0|outputstreamtype\=1


...and then selecting the new option.

[Twinkle]

Okay, here's a screenshot. Pay attention to the lines and text that should have been crisp.

The color sucks too, but I haven't figured out a way to fix that yet - since the sliders don't do anything.

[Chriscic]

Not sure if this is your problem, but consider that the decoder in your DirecTV box is probably a lot better than what you're using on the PC.

When I compared my Comcast box output vs. the HD-PVR recording on my PC, the Comcast box output looked materially better. But when I recorded the exact same clip via firewire (original digital stream) and played back the PC it was virtually identical to the HD-PVR recording.

Based on my experience I believe a properly functioning HD-PVR loses nearly zero video quality; decoder quality is a different issue.

I've had plenty of other problems with my HD-PVR, but the image quality itself isn't one of them (playing smoothly is).

[cslatt]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

I'm watching it with Media Player Classic HC.

Do you have the latest version? (v1.1.604.0) It fixed some H.264 decoding bugs that were in v1.1.0.0

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by cslatt

Do you have the latest version? (v1.1.604.0) It fixed some H.264 decoding bugs that were in v1.1.0.0

I do. But in any case, I've tried watching this in Sage using a PowerDVD decoder, a WinDVD decoder, nothing makes any significant difference.


At this point, I'm thinking that I'm correctly seeing what the HD PVR is supposed to output. Perhaps I'm simply more perceptive to the nuances and details than most people are - but if what I'm seeing is accurate, than my conclusion has to be that - in my opinion - the HD PVR reduces picture quality to unacceptable levels, and is not worth the money.

I'm speaking with Hauppauge tech support about this, and unless I'm doing something wrong to cause this, I'll be returning my units to get my money back.

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

Not sure if this is your problem, but consider that the decoder in your DirecTV box is probably a lot better than what you're using on the PC.

When I compared my Comcast box output vs. the HD-PVR recording on my PC, the Comcast box output looked materially better. But when I recorded the exact same clip via firewire (original digital stream) and played back the PC it was virtually identical to the HD-PVR recording.

Based on my experience I believe a properly functioning HD-PVR loses nearly zero video quality; decoder quality is a different issue.

I've had plenty of other problems with my HD-PVR, but the image quality itself isn't one of them (playing smoothly is).

I find it hard to believe that so many decoders for the PC are so inferior - between ArcSoft, PowerDVD, WinDVD, and the others - all of them are that lousy? I find that difficult to believe.

[sic0048]

I understand your situation, but I think what everyone else is saying is that there are many, many HD-PVR users out there and few if any complain about picture quality. I can guarantee that you are not the only person that pays attention to picture quality or has an eye for detail.

Heck, I know users here have dabled with HTPCs and directshow filters and computer setting before to try and tweak out the best possible picture. So while you may have a critical eye, you are not the only one.

I should have my HD-PVR any day now and will be able to set it up and have first hand experience with it. As of today, I cannot give you that first hand results.

Many people however (myself included) use the HD-100 to actually view the HD-PVR streams and that may be the difference. Again, this would point to some sort of set up selection or computer settings that might be messing with the picture.

[Brent]

I know we're talking about the quality problems you're experiencing, but since you gave up on doing the playback in SageTV, I might recommend you try the following things and using SageTV to do this just to be sure that doesn't help you out.

Things I remember about setting up my client PC for use with the HD-PVR:

• Use at least a dual-processor CPU on the playback machine - the more power the better since it's very CPU intensive to playback these h.264 files.
• Use a high-powered video card (see Hauppauge's support page for ideas on this)
• Install all of software (at least the TMC player) that comes with the HD-PVR onto the PC that will be doing the playback. This is required to get the proper codec.
• On the playback PC Close SageTV, Edit SageTV Properties and insert the following line

  videoframe/h264_video_decoder_filter=ArcSoft Video Decoder

  then save and restart SageTV

Don't know if you've done all of this already, but those should be the main things that have to happen on the playback PC to get the HD-PVR working properly. It worked for me at least.

You'll find that the SageTV HD100 extender plays back the HD-PVR files very well also without the hassle of the above steps.

[mayamaniac]

As I stated earlier in one of my replies, when it comes to picture quality, it varies from person to person. For Twinkle, he's less forgiving about it then most of us. And that's ok, I'm sorta the same way with audio. But the HD-PVR's quality is not as bad as he makes it sound. Even the screen shot he posted, it is a lot better than SD. So there's exaggeration on his part that the HD-PVR's quality resembling SD.

Twinkle, I think you should try the HD extender, it does improve the picture quality over what you see with the computer.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

As I stated earlier in one of my replies, when it comes to picture quality, it varies from person to person. For Twinkle, he's less forgiving about it then most of us. And that's ok, I'm sorta the same way with audio. But the HD-PVR's quality is not as bad as he makes it sound. Even the screen shot he posted, it is a lot better than SD. So there's exaggeration on his part that the HD-PVR's quality resembling SD.

Twinkle, I think you should try the HD extender, it does improve the picture quality over what you see with the computer.

I agree. The HD-PVR is not perfect. There is some image degradation and I am sure that is due to the digital to analog to digital conversion that is occuring. It will never be perfect. It just can't be. Obviously most of us are happy with the minimal degradation from the image. For many this is the ONLY way to get HD channels such as Discovery/ESPN/etc (I use dish network so I could always go to the R5000 mod). However, the degradation is VERY minimal in my opinion. Looking at his screen capture, it is definately NOT SD. It is maybe HD with a slight bit of sharpness lost. For $250, I consider this a very an acceptable loss. This is a CONSUMER GRADE device. Let's not forget that!

[Twinkle]

Well, as nobody has said that there's anything unusual about the screen capture I posted, I'll take that to mean that it's not significantly different from what others are seeing on their own units.

That being said, to me, the difference is glaring. Graphics and text that were sharp without the HD PVR are significantly blurrier with it. If you guys are happy with that, than I'm happy for you - because that means that you guys have an easier solution than I do.

But for me, I feel like I've downgraded my system, and I'm not happy with the results.


That being said, are there any better options for doing an HD capture? I see plenty of high quality clips online - but I'm guessing that they're using a cable box that lets them pull the data stream directly. Is there an equivalent option for DirecTV?

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

Well, as nobody has said that there's anything unusual about the screen capture I posted, I'll take that to mean that it's not significantly different from what others are seeing on their own units.

Don't assume that. Okay, I'll say it. The screen-shot you put up is significantly worse then what I see with my HD-PVR output on SageTV... It looks almost washed out. It could be the quality of the screen-shot, but it doesn't look right.

Have you tried any of the suggestions above? In my post above I mentioned several things that worked for me, did you try those already?

[sic0048]

Well I haven't commented about the screen shot because screen shots are always subject to their own problems. For example, you've obviously had to scaled that image down, so it isn't an exact representation of the actual output of the PVR-HD.

It would also be better if we could have three screen shots: output from the HD-PVR, your better HD picture not using the HD-PVR, and the SD picture (since you claim the HD-PVR is as bad as SD).

Without comparison pictures that screen shot doesn't mean a whole lot to me because there are too many variables that can occur with screen shots like that.

Please don't take my comments to be arguementative or condiscending either. I'm just stating my opinion, and as mentioned earlier, I don't even have my HD-PVR yet so I haven't seen the quality different first hand. My unit is to be delievered in Thursday (and I can't wait).

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by Brent

Don't assume that. Okay, I'll say it. The screen-shot you put up is significantly worse then what I see with my HD-PVR output on SageTV... It looks almost washed out. It could be the quality of the screen-shot, but it doesn't look right.

Have you tried any of the suggestions above? In my post above I mentioned several things that worked for me, did you try those already?

All the items you mentioned are already taken care of. And I know that the color quality coming out of my H21's are not what they should be (they output a greenish cast). I'd correct it, except that the sliders don't work for me - neither in ArcSoft, nor in Sage. But since the sharpness issue took precedence, I didn't bother with the colors yet.

The question is - ignoring the colors, how is the sharpness of my screen shot compared to what you see?

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by sic0048

Well I haven't commented about the screen shot because screen shots are always subject to their own problems. For example, you've obviously had to scaled that image down, so it isn't an exact representation of the actual output of the PVR-HD.

Excuse me? The screen shot I uploaded wasn't scaled down one bit. It's an accurate representation of what I see on my TV.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

All the items you mentioned are already taken care of.

I thought you said you weren't using SageTV for playback? Unless you are, then its very difficult to compare the steps you're taking to get it to work vs the steps most of us (me included) took to get it to work. If you are using SageTV for this now and are getting the same results then I'm mistaken (wouldn't be the first time ).

The question is - ignoring the colors, how is the sharpness of my screen shot compared to what you see?

It's difficult to compare without seeing the exact same screen on my television set at the same time I'm looking at your screen-shot, but to my untrained eye, your screen-shot shows an almost fuzzy quality to the graphics. It's not terrible, but doesn't look quite right either. Let me make a similar screen-shot tonight and we'll compare.

And I agree with the other posters here that it would be helpful if you uploaded a video clip so we could really see what you're seeing.