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| SageTV Software Discussion related to the SageTV application produced by SageTV. Questions, issues, problems, suggestions, etc. relating to the SageTV software application should be posted here. (Check the descriptions of the other forums; all hardware related questions go in the Hardware Support forum, etc. And, post in the customizations forum instead if any customizations are active.) |
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#1
02-01-2004, 10:37 PM
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Replacing TiVo?
I know this is probably talked about, at least in pieces, quite often so sorry for any repitition.
I currently use a TiVo series 1 to record normal cable TV shows (not typically movies, just half hour or 1 hour shows). I'm big on the HTPC bandwagon, and use 2 HTPCs in my house for DVD, MP3, etc. playback. I've always liked the thought of using an HTPC for TiVo like functions, but the software never seemed to be there. Now I've heard a lot of great things about SageTV, so thought it was time for me to revisit possibly replacing my TiVo. 2 things I love about the HTPC / SageTV idea - the ease of archiving shows onto my server, or DVD, or wherever I'd like - easily sharing recordings among networked PCs - no subscriptions I planned on downloading and trying out the SageTV software, but it looks like it's not compatibile with my TV tuner card (Pinnacle PCTV). SO - I'm at the point where I'd rather not dish out $150 or whatever to try this product, in case it doesn't suit my needs. Some of the things I love about TiVo - - obviously the guide - recording suggestions - anticipating programs I may like - timeshifting, fast-forward and rewind live TV Can anyone who has also owned and used a TiVo for a substantial amount of time and now used SageTV offer any advice? Thanks in advance! 
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#2
02-01-2004, 11:04 PM
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I had a Series 1 TiVo for about two years, so I may be able to answer some of your questions.
SageTV and TiVo use the same programming service, so any problems that you had with TiVo getting the correct lineup will still be there (that is a problem with Zap2It and not TiVo or SageTV). It is really nice being able to have multiple tuners and let the PVR determine which tuner to use (I have 3 PVR-250s doing the main recording and one PVR-350 as a network encoder and for playback). If you want to replace the TiVo, I would definitely recommend using a PVR-350 to drive your TV. Mixing a software decoder with the S-Video output of a video card does not look very good, IMHO. The PVR-350 is crisp and clean and now supports the on-screen display. If you are use to navigating with the TiVo remote, the current Beta (11) will come very close to what you are use to. I have finally set up my learning remote to handle the Hauppauge remote's mapping. The FF and RW are not what you are use to. Instead of having a smooth increase in speed, SageTV currently does a jump forward in time. Although I am now use to this feature, I do miss the way that the TiVo did FF and RW. SageTV has two FF and RW modes. The first is a skip by 10 seconds (default) and the second is by 2.5 minutes (default). I changed the second one to jump by 30 seconds so I could more convenintly skip commercial breaks (they are not all 2.5 minutes long). There is also no way to jump to the start or end of a program. SageTV does provide a nice time scroll feature that can be used to duplicate the functionality. The biggest difference that I can tell is the noise. Because the computer that I use to drive the TV is just that, a computer, it is a bit noisy. I was use to my TiVo being dead quiet and I haven't found a case for my PC that comes very close. I built an EPIA based computer but, since I chose the 1GHz version, the CPU has a fan that is very noticable. Once SageTV has finished integrating the PVR-350 (it still requires using the software decoder, for now), a far lesser CPU can be used. Finding a truely quiet power supply is also being a pain. There are two other, small, differences that you may not like. I was use to TiVo projecting its recording schedule out for the next two weeks. SageTV currently only does this for the next three days. You can manually schedule a program, but the favorites won't be scheduled until they are three days away. There is also no way to choose a program by channel and time. This is coming with version 2, but is not there yet (the screen is there, but not the functionality). All this being said, I unloaded my TiVo over Thanksgiving and haven't looked back. I like begin able to record programs and then watch them on my Mac (which is on a different floor from my TV), as well as begin able to burn DVDs (I also unloaded my VCR). For the Mac, all I had to do was buy a MPEG-2 plugin for Quicktime (from Apple) and I could watch recorded programs. Watching live TV requires the client, which is not currently available for the Mac  .If you are interested, here is my system: Pentium 4 PC containing 3 PVR-250s. This is in a spare bedroom in the basement. EPIA-M PC containing 1 PVR-350 driving the TV. On Friday evenings, I actually have three tuners busy recording programs for a two hour block. It is not unusual to have two tuners going at any given time. Last edited by fidget; 02-01-2004 at 11:40 PM.
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#3
02-01-2004, 11:19 PM
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Fidget,
I have 1 250 and 1 350 in a server, and 1 250 in a network encoder. I am using 2.0.11 and am experiencing problems with the network encoder. I can't get the network encoder to play out the server's 350...and my server freezes when my network encoder is done. Are you using V2? Deadbolt
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#4
02-01-2004, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
\\pvr\video \\tvr\video If the directories don't have the same name on both the network encoder and the server then it will be recorded, but the server won't be able to find it. I had that problem when I first set up my network encoder because my video directory was c:\... and that is exactly where my -350 wrote the file, on its own C: drive.
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#5
02-02-2004, 02:41 AM
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Mike - I too have been a series 1 TiVo user for close to three years now. I used to be a big advocate of TiVo, but since I started using HTPC based PVRs I haven't looked back. The TiVo is still in my entertainment center and recording stuff, but it has mostly taken a backup role now (I already have a lifetime sub on the unit and it is upgraded to 300hrs, so it didn't make sense to completely dump it). I can't remember when I last actually used the TiVo though ...
To answer the specific issues you have raised -- - Guide : like fidget mentioned above, TiVo and SageTV get their guide from the same source (Zap2it), so you are going to see the same stuff in terms of program listings. Two areas where Sage surpasses TiVo are -- --- I like Sage's presentation of the on screen guide much better than what TiVo (series 1 at least) did --- Sage allows you to randomly map channels to channels numbers. This may not sound like a big deal until your cable provider changes the channel lineup and Zap2it doesn't sync with the change immediately. This happened in our area recently where Fox was moved from channel 10 to 13, and Zap2it took about 2 weeks to fix this. There was NO WAY to make my TiVo do the channel remapping, so it continued to think that Fox is on channel 10, which was something completely different. With Sage, it took me hardly a minute to remap the channel manually and it kept recording fine knowing that Fox is now on channel 13 - Recording Suggestions / anticipating programs I may like : Sage is the only HTPC PVR solution I know of that implements the "TiVo Suggestion" kind of feature. Sage calls this "Intelligent Recording". Unfortunately I never liked this feature and don't personally use this on Sage (I never used TiVo Suggestions also, btw) ... so I can't provide any feedback on how it works -- but the feature is there. Note that in Sage this feature is DISABLED by default, so if you do decide to install SAge, make sure you turn this feature ON. - Timeshifting : Sage does a great job of time shifting, however as fidget mentioned above, the way Sage does FF/REW is very different than TiVo, so it may take you some time to get used to. Sage does FF/REW in "jumps" as opposed to the "continuous" FF/REW that TiVo does by default. I think I still like the "continuous" FF/REW a little better, but I have gotten used to the "jump" method. The only thing I still very much miss in Sage is the automatic jump back (in case of FF) or jump forward (in case of REW) that TiVo does to compensate for overshooting when using FF/REW. A couple other things where TiVo is better -- - It is easier to search for program categories in the guide. For example if you want to look at all the "kids movies" that are in the guide, you can easily do this in TiVo but not in Sage - The TiVo remote is one of the best I have ever used. I am still in search for a good remote for Sage. I have been using the Hauppauge silver remote with Sage currently and it is just about okay, but a little less responsive and weaker than I would like. I just placed an order for the MX-500 remote and will see how it works with Sage + IRMan - Less noise as mentioned above And a couple things were Sage is superior -- - Supports multiple tuners and does an excellent job at that. I am currently using three Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250 cards in my system, and they are working great - Archiving shows to DVD is sooo much easier - Adding additional storage is as easy as adding another hard drive and telling Sage to use an additional video directory in that hard drive - Much better picture quality than TiVo, partially due to the fact that you can use a multitude of software scalers and filters with Sage, and mostly due to the fact that using Sage I can use the DVI out of my PC to connect the TV (or component) ... using TiVo I am limited to S-Video - The client allows much easier viewing of recorded shows anywhere else in your house. Much better than the "too pricy, too late, too little" HMO option that S2 TiVos are supporting now, IMHO. I don't think you will ever regret the move to SageTV from TiVo ... I didn't  Good luck and feel free to ask if you have any additional questions. There are some great people around here 
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#6
02-02-2004, 04:39 AM
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I use both and I'd say the two above have pretty much covered all the main issues. For me the only downsides to Sage over Tivo were PC noise and the PVR remote. I think video quality becomes a nonissue with the right planning.
Remote:I love SageTV but I use my Tivo Series2 remote to control it. If you buy a PVR250 try and make sure it comes with the silver remote. The older black remote has too few buttons.IMO Picture Quality:If your TV's best quality input is SVHS get the PVR350 for the better(hardware decoder) playback quality. The 350 always comes with the grey remote. If your TV has a DVI input get the PVR250 instead and use your computers videocard. This is cheaper than the 350 and you can tweak the picture using all kinds of filters. Noise:As for sound: If you are building a new computer check out this thread that I started for advice on a quiet harddrive. Many great people have since added posts and links to all kinds of quiet hardware and usefull sites. I personally recomend an Antec Sonata case to house the system
__________________
"Between you and me, my name's irrelevant." 
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#7
02-02-2004, 06:36 AM
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Thanks so much for the awesome replies guys!
Few questions then: - If everyone seems to miss the FF/RW features of TiVo (which I suspect I will too), why does SageTV not implement it? Seems like an easy enough thing. Is it a technical issue, or political one? - Kind of unrelated, but my signal is currently split to 4 different TVs in the house currently using a passive splitter. If I add multiple tuners, which seems cool, I'm going to have to split it a couple more times. I assume I'm going to have signal degredation issues. Can anyone recommend a good amplifier/splitter unit to use? If it matters, I have digital cable with 1 HDTV box in the house. - Is there any issues saving programming directly to a server on my network? My SageTV PC will probably have a 10/100 NIC in it, though I guess I could retrofit it with a gigabit if that is necessary. - The remote is definitely an issue, but I'm a single PC guy, so a wireless keyboard/mouse is an acceptable interface for me - at least for now. Does SageTV control well with a mouse? - My primary display is a projector with a VGA input, and my secondary room will hopefully soon be moving to plasma, so I don't think the hardware decoding is an issue. Are there any other advantages to the 350 I should know of? Same remote? Thanks again! Wasn't expecting to get so many great replies! Mike
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#8
02-02-2004, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
I'll leave the other two to someone else who has first hand experience. Best of luck
__________________
"Between you and me, my name's irrelevant."
Last edited by justme; 02-02-2004 at 07:12 AM.
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#9
02-02-2004, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
I believe it has to do with the network interface. It is easier (and consumes less bandwidth) to have the server jump to the next location in the file that to transfer the additional data for the TiVo like FF and RW. This way the client and server behave the same. Quote:
One thing to look into is the MediaMVP from Hauppauge. This way you can send Ethernet to each TV and have an MVP there to do the display. The MVP does MPEG decoding and currently plays only pre-recorded programs. There is suppose to be a SageTV client in the works, at which time it will make an ideal set top box. Quote:
The only problem will be network bandwidth. Plan on using about 8Mb/s for each program (both read and write). I believe that all MPEG data flows through the SageTV server, so if the files are on a remote file system they will be transferred from there to the server and then out to the client. Quote:
The mouse interface has been cut back (temporarily) in 2.0, i.e., there aren't any icons on the on screen display like there was with 1.4. I use a Gyration RF keyboard and mouse and think it works wonderfully. My primary way to control SageTV is with the Hauppauge silver remote. Quote:
The big one is the hardware decoder. It will let you get away with a lesser PC, but if you will be hooking to a HDTV I don't think you want a lesser PC.
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#10
02-02-2004, 07:18 AM
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One more thing I forgot to ask, just out of curiosity.
I guess I just assumed that SageTV used some not-for-profit guide database. If they both use the same databse, and TiVo charges monthly fees, why doesn't SageTV? Not that I want them to!
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#11
02-02-2004, 07:47 AM
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Tivo was designed from the start to make money off the guide data. Frey currently rolls the price of guide data into the software purchase, although they did originally charge for it over a year ago.. The software market is currently much more competitive than the standalone PVR market, hence the better deal. But to be honest I don't know how any of the software companies that do this can afford it.
__________________
"Between you and me, my name's irrelevant."
Last edited by justme; 02-02-2004 at 07:49 AM.
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#12
02-02-2004, 07:50 AM
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I know this IS a SageTV forum, but are there any other software packages I should at least take a look at?
Again, the networking ability is what sold me on SageTV. Thanks, Mike
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#13
02-02-2004, 08:01 AM
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Frey has always been very good about allowing fair discussions of competitive products.IMO The other main packages to check out would be:
SnapStream(BeyondTV) and MythTV. MythTV is a free linux based application. Check out this thread for a great comparison of the products. As I said before I don't use Sage's network capabilities so I'll let you see the differences for yourself. Also I'm sure a person that uses Sage's network feature will respond very soon. Let's just hope it doesn't become another which is better thread.
__________________
"Between you and me, my name's irrelevant."
Last edited by justme; 02-02-2004 at 08:04 AM.
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#15
02-02-2004, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Good luck,
__________________
Jeff
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#16
02-02-2004, 09:42 AM
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The recording quality is the same if you are using a PVR-250. Out of the box BTV uses far fewer bits to store the video in. You can create your own profiles with higher bit rates to match SageTV.
However, you can have more control over picture quality in SageTV as you can use DScaler. So if you like to tinker you can end up with a better picture quality if needed using SageTV. Carlo
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#17
02-02-2004, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Thanks,
__________________
Jeff
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#20
02-03-2004, 06:53 PM
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I have, (had) replay TV, and now use Sage exclusively for most of the same reasons as above. With a little planning, noise should not be an issue. My replayTV is louder then my PC. I have a 36" gateway monitor for daytime viewing and a digital projector for nightime viewing and the quality of the video is much improved using sage, then replaytv. Not to mention the the replaytv tuner sucked, so I had to use the cable box, while the tuner on the PVR250 is better then the cable box.
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