Hardware requirements for multiple DTV-C tuners

[eibsen]

Hi,

I am considering using SageTV for a new media center I'm building (getting tired of MCE), and need help on the hardware requirements / plan.

Currently I'm running 2 Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-500 MCE cards (4 tuners in total) and found that 3-4 tuners fits my needs pretty well.

I want to go to digital (DVB-C) and therefore consider using FireDTV or FloppyDTV. To fit my requirements I would therefore need 3-4 of these.

This is where my questions come in:
1) I believe I have read that Sage should support multiple tuners. Is this correctly understood, and does that go for FireDTVs or FloppyDTVs as well?

2) I have been able to record 4 shows simultaneously in MCE with a single SATA disk. I do not know whether the hardware requirements go up by going to digital. E.g. will the harddisk bandwidth be higher? And is there more encoding CPU power needed when using the FireDTVs compared to Hauppauge tuners?

3) Has anyone done this before, or will I be venturing into unknown territory?


I hope someone can help with answers to some or all of these questions.

Thank you in advance for helping me move away from MCE!

/Erik

[eibsen]

bump

really? - no-one can help with answers for this?

[eibsen]

final bump

I guess Sage does not want my business

[Opus4]

This is a user to user forum. If no one knows the answer, then try contacting SageTV tech support.

- Andy

[voidpt]

Can confirm that it should work. I use 2x FloppyDTV C/CI (DVB-C) tuners in my SageTV server. With Conax CAM's and 2x SmartCards for encrypted channels (CanalDigital in Norway). I did use the MyTheatre plug-in proxy for a long time (was stable as a rock). But now I do use SageTV directly, as intended. It is now stable enough, and I usually get the few H.264 HD channels to work too (something MyTheatre do not support yet).

I will say one thing though. I have experienced different stability with different firmware's on the FloppyDTV through the years. The positive thing is that they still develop the firmware, and that they still support all their products. So I'm always carefull to check stability on a new firmware before going for it 100%. As of now I use the 1.2.10 (and not 1.3.0, did not seem stable) version. But I got the first hardware revision of FloppyDTV C/CI. The ones sold now are newer with a separate path of firmwares.

When it comes to 'bandwith' and hardware requirements. They are minimal. With DVB-C you are grabbing the raw TS stream. Nearly no CPU needed for that. But this means you cannot 'throttle' the quality you want on stream. You get what they send bit-for-bit. Usually MPEG2 SD varies around 4-6MBit/s. H.264 HD about 10-15MBit/s (if I remember correctly).

If I were you I would buy 1 tuner and try it out. If all seems to work, go for it. Remember though, if encrypted channels, you will need a separate SmartCard for each tuner. Also, if 4 tuners, you'd need 4 FireWire ports.

[tkraang]

Originally Posted by voidpt

Can confirm that it should work. I use 2x FloppyDTV C/CI (DVB-C) tuners in my SageTV server. With Conax CAM's and 2x SmartCards for encrypted channels (CanalDigital in Norway). I did use the MyTheatre plug-in proxy for a long time (was stable as a rock). But now I do use SageTV directly, as intended. It is now stable enough, and I usually get the few H.264 HD channels to work too (something MyTheatre do not support yet).

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I see that you have a VERY similar setup to me. Did you have any problems getting the second FloppyDTV to work? I am using FireDTV boxes instead of the FloppyDTV cards, but the results should be comparable.

I have had one FireDTV box working properly now for a couple of weeks, decided to get another one. After plugging and restarting SageTV Service, the new FireDTV gets detected. However, channel scanning does not work properly, I am not even asked what DVB-C provider I would like to use. When adding my first FireDTV, I am always asked what provider to use, with CanalDigital as the only option. This might be why the #2 FireDTV is not scanning properly, because it doesnt know what transponders to use? If I try to use the lineup for FireDTV #1, the channels are not scanned correctly.

I have tried switching CA-modules between the two FireDTVs, both are working properly. I've also tried replacing the cables, thus making the first box #2 and the second box #1, and now the old (@ #2) box is no longer working while the new one is! So my guess is that this is not a firmware-/driver-problem. I am using SageTV 6.3.5.


Terje

[voidpt]

Originally Posted by tkraang

I have tried switching CA-modules between the two FireDTVs, both are working properly. I've also tried replacing the cables, thus making the first box #2 and the second box #1, and now the old (@ #2) box is no longer working while the new one is! So my guess is that this is not a firmware-/driver-problem. I am using SageTV 6.3.5.

No problem. Only happy to help if I can. First, can confirm that I had no problems at all with 2 FloppyDTV's in same server at the same time. Shows up as 2 tuners (one with #2 behind). As you say, FireDTV external should be nearly same hardware, just in an external enclosure. I can't see why it should not work.

Back to good old problemsolving From what I can understand you actually got the new box to work if you switched firewire port on server. One question in this regard, are these 2 firewire ports, on the server, on the same type of chipset ? I do know that some firewire chipsets have problems in some contexts.

Also, when you changed boxes, did you change the signal-cable from the wall ? On the boxes ? Just wondering if you have any problems with splitter on the signal-cable from wall ? But if you only changed the firewire cable, this should not be it.

When installing the FireDTV drivers. Did you read the info in the guide about the 2 KB hotfix'es for Windows XP (if that is what you are using):
SP2 Hotfix for DVB: KB896626
SP2 Hotfix for 1394: KB885222
Also if you added the 2nd firewire port with an extra card after you installed KB885222. Read the notes on KB885222 about editing the registry to get correct speed on port.

Thats what I can think of now.

[rtengvad]

Hi all

I'm using sage with two FloppyDTV DVB-C tuners. My shift from analog to digital has not been without some difficulties unfortunately. This is my findings so far.

1) My biggest problem is that first time I start or restart Sage none of the tuners will tune the first channel. After a tune-stop cycle on both tuners everything works. Sage has confirmed this as a bug but has not had time to look into it yet. I’m having one Floppy tuner from each hardware revision with the newest firmware.

2) In the beginning I had a bit of stuttering problems. But that has now gone. I suspect it had something to do with my Viaccess CAM cards. They are very sensitive to the RF signal.

3) Since introducing my FloppyDTV tuners to my system the standby function has been broken so right now I’m running 24/7.

4) I had to manually modify the .frq files to fit my lineup. It is not very user friendly but I haven’t found a better way yet and when its done its done.

5) The newest tuner version has a firewire plug so you can connect two tuners (at least) in serie to one firewire connector. That’s what I’ve done.

Originally Posted by voidpt

I did use the MyTheatre plug-in proxy for a long time (was stable as a rock). But now I do use SageTV directly, as intended. It is now stable enough, and I usually get the few H.264 HD channels to work too (something MyTheatre do not support yet).

This is very interesting considering my problem 1). I wil try to revert back to the old firmware to see if that helps my tuning problem.

Originally Posted by tkraang

I have had one FireDTV box working properly now for a couple of weeks, decided to get another one. After plugging and restarting SageTV Service, the new FireDTV gets detected. However, channel scanning does not work properly, I am not even asked what DVB-C provider I would like to use. When adding my first FireDTV, I am always asked what provider to use, with CanalDigital as the only option. This might be why the #2 FireDTV is not scanning properly, because it doesnt know what transponders to use? If I try to use the lineup for FireDTV #1, the channels are not scanned correctly.

I recently did a reinstallation of my system and in the beginning I had scanning problems too. That was with 6.3.6. I uninstalled Sage. Updated Java and installed 6.3.5. Problem gone.


Hope this can help

Rasmus

[rtengvad]

Hi again. Just to give you an update. Reverting back to the previous firmware didn't solve my tun-ing problem

Voidpt, I would very much like to hear a few more details about you setup since your system works.

Thanks

Rasmus

[voidpt]

When you say tuning problems, do you still refer to the first-tune-after-boot problem ? Because I'm not a 100% sure that I'm totally without that problem too. Haven't been too noticable to bother, and haven't really tried to check it out. I have my 2 FloppyDTV tuners in a server/PC (WinXP Pro) that goes 24/7 with an automatic reboot once a week. So if there actually is a consistent problem with first tune, I might not have catched it. When I say my system is stable now, I'm really relating that to past history. Because it has been hell learning about all this, going through firmware/driver revisions through my initial tryouts

A little more about my system. I'm using 2x FloppyDTV (DVB-C) with firmware 1.2.10, to tune to CanalDigital here in Norway (Sandvika). Driver in use is FireDTV_BDA_DVBC.sys (4.8.0.0). CanalDigital is using Conax as encryption, so I have 2x Conax 5.0 CAM's with 2x SmartCards.

It is not perfect, but it's good enough with the fact that I do not need to reset tuners, ever, through the week. And all favourites are recorded without problems. But I do have things I would like fixed. The HD channels are a little tricky, but usually works. Audio tracks on some channels here in Norway are 2x Stereo that really are 4x Mono languages (Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, English). So I would have liked SageTV giving the option to 'tune' to one part of the stereo channel. Also the subtitle/texting over DVB is not supported by SageTV. I do see someone has made a DVBViewer proxy network tuner that may handle it now. But I would like to stay with SageTV as the tuner. Sort of happy with that after all the MyTheatre stuff.

Just tell me any other info you want and I'll try to supply you with it.

BTW: I also do the .frq manually. Makes for easier channel lists, and 100% hits. Usually use DVBViewer to get values for it.

[rtengvad]

Thanks for the info Voidpt.

Yes, its my first-channel-tuning-after-sage-start/restart that creates troubles for me. I get “no signal”. I have Sage on the case and would therefore very much like to know if you have the same problem.

I have the audio issue as well where some channels have English in one loudspeaker and Danish in the other. Very irritating! Nothing to do about I think.

Rasmus

[voidpt]

They should make it possible to choose on a channel that audio should be stereo'ed out from one mono-track. Would solve it. Think I asked about this long time ago. Not on the priority list I guess.

I will try to check out the tune-on-first-boot. I have some recordings going now. So can't do it just now But could you check out a few things for me ?

Depending on you running SageTV Server in service or application mode. Can you replicate the problem by only stopping/starting the SageTV Server service, or closing/starting the SageTV Server application ?

And if you after a reboot where you should have the problem, schedule a timed recording without watching it. And this is the first thing being done. Is the problem the same ? I'm asking because I have sometimes had the 'none-signal', especially on HD channels, but the 'progress-bar' and file on server have still started recording the data.

[rtengvad]

Im running in service mode and yes, I only need to start or restart Sage service to have the problem.

Just to be sure, I scheduled a recording and did a Sage restart just before. The file was created but only "no signal" was recorded.

So now I wonder if this issue could indeed be the cause for your problems as well. Look forward to hear more about that.

If you do have the same problem please file a bug report to sage, so we can crank this up the priority list

rasmus

[voidpt]

Have now tried out several times to force the issue you have. Cannot generate it on command at least. I was running on 6.3.5 and tried it out, stop/start service, reboot. Always picture on first tune. No problems. Also upgraded to 6.3.8 RC, to match you. No problems here either. That is, after getting the fixed TSSplitter.ax file from this thread. My SageTV service was crashing on command, nearly every time I tuned with 6.3.8 RC before this fix. Have you applied it too ? Seems to be a general bug for DVB in 6.3.8 RC.

Other than that I don't know what to do. It really works for me, 99.9% stable. I have had a few cases with 'no signal', but they are really rear now, and over months I can count that on one hand.

Guess this does not help you. Only real difference between us two now is the Conax vs Viaccess CAMs. Because I remember I had serious problems with Conax on very early firmwares for FloppyDTV. Often had to power off server to get them out of a 'locked' state. Now they never lock up.

Just remembered one thing. I do change a few things in Sage.properties file (on server). Not sure how important they are as of today. But they have saved me before, especially when watching a channel and crossing an 'EPG' show border. The properties I set are these:
• seeker/fast_mux_switch=false
• videoframe/safe_fast_file_switching=false
Don't remember if you need to add them, or change existing. But they are real properties that should have effect.

[voidpt]

Remembered one thing. I do not run any of the system tray 'status' apps that are included with FireDTV. Think they are called RC / CI (remote control & CAM/status app). No need, and I think they might create problems in some cases.

[rtengvad]

Hi Voidpt

I really appreciate all your help. I did the changes in the property file you suggested but unfortunately it didn’t help.

I also run without the CI-program that came with FloppyDTV. So there our setup is the same. The only thing is that we have different component in the rest of the setup since my system is an Amd based and yours an Intel based.

I think there is nothing to do but to wait for Sage to solve the problem.

Rasmus

[SyrA]

Hi

I also run without the CI-program that came with FloppyDTV.

I have a problem with SAGETV because i HAVE to use the CI program to get decoding to work. Is there any settings that i can tune to get rid of that problem?

Causes me some problem becuse i run sage tv as a service on a WHS machine and typicly i wouldnt be logged on to the server to be able to run a interactive program.

[rtengvad]

Originally Posted by SyrA

Hi

Causes me some problem becuse i run sage tv as a service on a WHS machine and typicly i wouldnt be logged on to the server to be able to run a interactive program.

I understand your problem, but no, I haven't done anything. To me it does not matter if I run the CI program next to Sage or not. It just works with the above mentioned limitations.

What tuner-card are you using??

Rasmus

[SyrA]

I use FireDTV DVBT with CI.

And i have a Hauppauge nova-t DT for the freechannels.