BlackMagic Intensity Pro: recording HD via HDMI/Component

[nyle]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

While I do think the HDPVR has some issues for some (mostly older units), I have never had any issues with mine and have been using it since July. Playback is solely thru HD100/200's. I think much has to do with getting h.264 playback working which is not as tried and true as mpeg2. I have no problems recommending the HDPVR.

And NO company is going to add native support for this card. This would be a support nightmare. The complaints about the hardware necessities will be huge....

With all due respect because I do hear what you are saying, you must be one of the lucky ones. Overheating problems, lockups, immature drivers - just to name a few with the HD-PVR.

It wasn't long ago when dual core processors didn't even exist. Now a Quad core AMD Phenom II system with 4GB ram is hardly out of the ordinary. In fact 4GB or ram and 1.5TB hard drive cost less than I paid for 512MB and 250MB HD only a few years ago.

We can't all keep running our existing HTPC rigs forever and expect them to move into the digital age. Any more than our old analog TV sets can handle a true 1080i signal.

This thread has at least 2 people in it that report that they've been able to get the Intensity Pro to work with a MPEG2 software decoder all on their own. If Sage supported it, it would certainly be more feasible. Especially, as they start migrating from supporting older analog tuners.

Wouldn't it be nice to have two solutions for bringing component level HD into Sage?

[nyle]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Probably not because it requires software encoding, which is inherently problematic.

I hear you about it being a software only encoders but in the past it wasn't even reliable to use a software MPEG2 decoder. They recommended hardware for that too. Is it such a stretch to think of using a software encoder to handle an HD component signal? We're already talking about 8 core CPUs and using the GPU to do additional system tasks.

Problem is the Intensity Pro is it's a software encoder, those never work well. The cost of entry for an Intensity Pro is just way too high, $300+ for the card, plus hundreds in HTPC hardware to utilize it.

I already spent hundreds to run Sage to begin with just in analog. It's been years since I upgraded my HTPC and I'm certain I'm not alone. I'm going to upgrade anyway, if I need 1GB more ram or to spend $50 more on the video card so be it. I think most users are all for more options. If they don't want to use buy the hardware to use the software encoder than they can select the HD-PVR. Hopefully, someday other options too.

The HD-PVR is like $249 and only has composite inputs via USB MP4. The Intensity Pro is a PCI Express card with multiple input types fo $51 more. I'd hardly call that a significant price difference for just the input device. Additionally, by being software only it allows the codecs to change as time does. MP2 or MP4 or whatever the next one is.

From the first two posts to my question though - it sounds like there is little confidence in Sage being able to support the Intensity Pro. Thanks for the reply.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by nyle

With all due respect because I do hear what you are saying, you must be one of the lucky ones. Overheating problems, lockups, immature drivers - just to name a few with the HD-PVR.

The problem with fora is you only hear about the problems. It's really impossible to tell if those having problems are representative of reality or simply in a vocal minority. Also if you notice, complaints have greatly reduced of late.

Wouldn't it be nice to have two solutions for bringing component level HD into Sage?

It would be nice to have two solutions sure, but if one of them is a software encoder, I'll pass thank you.

Originally Posted by nyle

I hear you about it being a software only encoders but in the past it wasn't even reliable to use a software MPEG2 decoder. They recommended hardware for that too. Is it such a stretch to think of using a software encoder to handle an HD component signal?

Yes it is IMO, I wouldn't recommend using a software encoder for SD even, not even with the power of today PC hardware.

We're already talking about 8 core CPUs and using the GPU to do additional system tasks.

It's not so much about the raw horsepower as it is any interruption to the system is likely to cause glitches in the encoding. Software encoders are incredibly sensitive to interruptions.

There are reasons why, even though PCs have had more than enough horsepower for years, that SageTV, Microsoft, and other PVR makers have opted to only support hardware encoders.

For example you can pretty successfully run SageTV with hardware encoders and multitask on the PC without ill effects. Try the same thing with software encoders and you're probably going to have messed up recordings (not maybe, probably) regardless of how much horsepower you've got.

I think most users are all for more options.

More options are often nice, but in this case, a software encoding HD recorder is a recipie for a support nightmare.

"Help, my recording is messed up!"
"Did you do anything on the PC during the recording?"
"Yeah, I checked my email."
"Well, it probably caused an interruption in the recording that messed it up."
"Is there anything you can do about it?"
"Not really"

The HD-PVR is like $249 and only has composite inputs via USB MP4. The Intensity Pro is a PCI Express card with multiple input types fo $51 more. I'd hardly call that a significant price difference for just the input device.

The other inputs (HDMI) are worthless on it, because of HDCP, and the cost is not just the device, but the additional hardware in the PC necessary for the capture.

Additionally, by being software only it allows the codecs to change as time does. MP2 or MP4 or whatever the next one is.

MPEG-2 has been the defacto standard codec for probably the last decade or more. H.264 (which the codec the HD-PVR uses) is looking to be the defacto standard codec for the next decade.

From the first two posts to my question though - it sounds like there is little confidence in Sage being able to support the Intensity Pro. Thanks for the reply.

Don't get me wrong, I have supreme confidence that Sage could support it if they wanted to. I have no expectation that they will, and I don't really think they should, as being a software encoder it would be far more trouble than it's worth.

[nyle]

Originally Posted by stanger89

The problem with fora is you only hear about the problems. It's really impossible to tell if those having problems are representative of reality or simply in a vocal minority. Also if you notice, complaints have greatly reduced of late.

That's true but there were a large number of units overheating initially and others I've talked to have said they like their's a lot but they are far from a plug and play experience. I've had enough problems getting just my Hauppauge 1600 to work.

Originally Posted by stanger89

It would be nice to have two solutions sure, but if one of them is a software encoder, I'll pass thank you.

Fair enough, I'm anxious for ANY other options. Even if I need to dedicate a box fast enough to run it and not do anything else on the box. I'd put a high end system in the basement directrly where cable comes into the house if it'd mean I could easily get HD compoent into other SageTV systems.

Originally Posted by stanger89

It's not so much about the raw horsepower as it is any interruption to the system is likely to cause glitches in the encoding. Software encoders are incredibly sensitive to interruptions.

Maybe I won't run it on Windows then.

Originally Posted by stanger89

The other inputs (HDMI) are worthless on it, because of HDCP, and the cost is not just the device, but the additional hardware in the PC necessary for the capture.

Sure but I wasn't talking about the HDMI inputs but the component and it's $51 more. Sure they could sell if for less without the HDMI but I'm not that worried about that.

Originally Posted by stanger89

MPEG-2 has been the defacto standard codec for probably the last decade or more. H.264 (which the codec the HD-PVR uses) is looking to be the defacto standard codec for the next decade.

Agreed and MPEG2 has been decent up until the advent of HD. Who knows what codec might be on the horizon - H.264 is reported to be hard to edit based on the way it's packaged. Perhaps, a hybrid codec is on the horizon that will become the defacto. I don't know for sure. Perhaps, ATI/NVidia will find a way for their GPUs to offer hardware acceleration for specific codecs. They've already started looking at using them to accelerate other computing tasks. I personally don't care if the capture card has the hardware decoder built in, if ATI and NVidia can use software accelerated by hardware.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Don't get me wrong, I have supreme confidence that Sage could support it if they wanted to. I have no expectation that they will, and I don't really think they should, as being a software encoder it would be far more trouble than it's worth.

Fair enough and I really do respect your opinion and hear what you are saying. I know that a hardware codec takes the load off the CPU which depedning on how the hardware and OS is designed is crucial based on the load of the system. Unless you dedicate the box to only encoding or someone else offers to accelerate the process on a special purpose processor like a GPU.

I know Sage could supprt it well. Sage has to offer as many hardware options as possible. I guess we can wait but it's not like HD is new and without easy ways to bring HD into my HTPC, I'm going to be forced to migrate to a crappy cable DVR or a gasp Tivo and use my PC only for MP3 and AVC(MP4s)

I guess I'm just anxious for more options. Please forgive my impatience.

Did I mention I hate HDCP/DRM and big medias attempt to just like the RIAA force everyone to buy everything from them. Including the hardware/software to allow the simple functionality that a PVR/DVR does? Unhfortunately, unlike MP3s most users don't know about or care to set up software PVRs to push the industry to open up like they are with the RIAA.

Thanks for the good discussion.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by nyle

Sure but I wasn't talking about the HDMI inputs but the component and it's $51 more. Sure they could sell if for less without the HDMI but I'm not that worried about that.

$51 more and losing a hardware encoder.

Agreed and MPEG2 has been decent up until the advent of HD. Who knows what codec might be on the horizon - H.264 is reported to be hard to edit based on the way it's packaged.

H.264 is packaged the same way as MPEG-2. The problems editing them are due to it being new, it's no different than the early days of MPEG-2. It used to be hard to edit as well, but the tools have now become commonplace. The same will happen H.264.

Perhaps, a hybrid codec is on the horizon that will become the defacto. I don't know for sure.

Unlikely, since it's the primary codec used by Blu-ray, satellite, many/most broadcasts around the world. Quicktime HD, DivX 7, I think HD Flash, etc, etc.

Perhaps, ATI/NVidia will find a way for their GPUs to offer hardware acceleration for specific codecs. They've already started looking at using them to accelerate other computing tasks. I personally don't care if the capture card has the hardware decoder built in, if ATI and NVidia can use software accelerated by hardware.

They already exist, ATI and nVidia have GPU accellerated encoding solutions. But such a solution is generally limited to a single concurrent encoding. That's really where "software" encoding falls flat on it's face, multiple simultaneous recordings.

Fair enough and I really do respect your opinion and hear what you are saying. I know that a hardware codec takes the load off the CPU which depedning on how the hardware and OS is designed is crucial based on the load of the system. Unless you dedicate the box to only encoding or someone else offers to accelerate the process on a special purpose processor like a GPU.

Dedicated box helps, but doesn't eliminate the problems. A number of us remember using (or trying to use) software-encode TV cards to build our own DVRs way back before hardware encoding. Sure you could record things, but there'd be constant sinc problems, and other "glitches" in the recordings. Hardware-encode cards were truly a revelation in recording TV, they are solely responsible for making PC DVR/PVRs viable.

I know Sage could supprt it well. Sage has to offer as many hardware options as possible. I guess we can wait but it's not like HD is new and without easy ways to bring HD into my HTPC,

If you think the HD PVR is too hard, you really don't want to use a software encoder.

[nyle]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Dedicated box helps, but doesn't eliminate the problems. A number of us remember using (or trying to use) software-encode TV cards to build our own DVRs way back before hardware encoding. Sure you could record things, but there'd be constant sinc problems, and other "glitches" in the recordings. Hardware-encode cards were truly a revelation in recording TV, they are solely responsible for making PC DVR/PVRs viable.

That would be completely dependent on the quality of the software encoder. Ah, where's the SMPTE when you need it?

Originally Posted by stanger89

If you think the HD PVR is too hard, you really don't want to use a software encoder.

I don't think that the HD PVR is too hard.

From the fair reviews I've read the quality of the hardware has not been good. You have to admit the overheating issues and poor quality fan reports haven't left a glowing impression of the hardware quality. I've also used several different Hauppauge TV cards, while their hardware on those has been good the software/drivers have had their share of problems.

It sounds like newer versions of the drivers for the HD PVR have gotten better with their own sync issues that some people were having.

As I said, I respect your opinion. I'm only hoping to see some additional means of getting HD into our SageTV setups. Without options for HD SageTV will either end up just being a media center minus the TV or be replaced by cruddy proprietary set top boxes. YUCK. I think that we all don't want that.

HAVA looks interesting at 720P and I've considered looking at one of them. Also, With HD PVRs finally selling for under $200 at DELL, it's more enticing to buy one to test it out.

Just from previous posts and reviews online the HD PVR has seemed like a beta product. I know that many have had good luck with it but there are also legit reviews from others who have not.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by nyle

That would be completely dependent on the quality of the software encoder. Ah, where's the SMPTE when you need it?

Software encoders can offer great quality, no doubt, the problem is when you try to cram software (CPU intensive) encoding into a non-realtime system, that's where things get sketchy. All too often the realtime software encoders were "detuned" quality wise to reduce CPU load and the fact that Windows isn't an RTOS would come back to bite you quite often.

From the fair reviews I've read the quality of the hardware has not been good. You have to admit the overheating issues and poor quality fan reports haven't left a glowing impression of the hardware quality. I've also used several different Hauppauge TV cards, while their hardware on those has been good the software/drivers have had their share of problems.

It sounds like newer versions of the drivers for the HD PVR have gotten better with their own sync issues that some people were having.

All I know is what I've experienced, and it's been great since Hauppauge released official drivers.

As I said, I respect your opinion. I'm only hoping to see some additional means of getting HD into our SageTV setups. Without options for HD SageTV will either end up just being a media center minus the TV or be replaced by cruddy proprietary set top boxes. YUCK. I think that we all don't want that.

Everyone wants more options, but SageTV the most HD providers of anyone out there, I don't see that changing any time soon. Until there are other options, the HD PVR is here and it works better and better as Hauppauge and Sage find and tackle bugs.

HAVA looks interesting at 720P and I've considered looking at one of them.

From what I've heard, they record in 480p not 720p.

Also, With HD PVRs finally selling for under $200 at DELL, it's more enticing to buy one to test it out.

Just from previous posts and reviews online the HD PVR has seemed like a beta product. I know that many have had good luck with it but there are also legit reviews from others who have not.

Frankly I don't trust "professional" reviews at all when it comes to HT/HTPC stuff. They just don't care enough to spend the time necessary to really understand things. Yes the HD PVR has had it's problems, and it's not perfect. But it does work, and it works quite well. Perhaps Hauppauge should have waited a few months before release to get things stabilized and leave a better impression on people.

[dadavo]

Hello. I don't know if the Intensity Pro is still the topic of this discussion but I would like to add my two cents.

Originally Posted by nyle

Fair enough, I'm anxious for ANY other options. Even if I need to dedicate a box fast enough to run it and not do anything else on the box. I'd put a high end system in the basement directrly where cable comes into the house if it'd mean I could easily get HD compoent into other SageTV systems.

Do you plan to add more than one Intensity Pros? I still run this setup and in order for this work you currently HAVE to use SGRecorder. I am not certain if it is possible to run more than one graph simultaneously especially since all graphs will be using the exact same set of DirectShow filters.

Originally Posted by nyle

Maybe I won't run it on Windows then.

Again if you are still talking about Intensity Pro there are no Linux drivers and SGRecorder cannot run naively on Mac OS X

Originally Posted by nyle

Agreed and MPEG2 has been decent up until the advent of HD. Who knows what codec might be on the horizon - H.264 is reported to be hard to edit based on the way it's packaged. Perhaps, a hybrid codec is on the horizon that will become the defacto. I don't know for sure. Perhaps, ATI/NVidia will find a way for their GPUs to offer hardware acceleration for specific codecs. They've already started looking at using them to accelerate other computing tasks. I personally don't care if the capture card has the hardware decoder built in, if ATI and NVidia can use software accelerated by hardware.

I have an ATI card that does hardware DECODING. Since the ENCODING is not accelerated the CPU does all of the heavy lifting. While watching live TV approximately 50 - 60 % of my Intel T2600 2.16GHz CPU is being used. I also have an ATI eHome Wonder that does hardware encoding. While it does not record HD I have it set to record at 5GB /hr and watching TV only takes 10 - 15 %. Also the native capture file format for the Intensity Pro is YUV or MJPEG AVI so transcoding to MPEG2 or H.264 is necessary to get Sage to recognize the file for live playback or recording

Originally Posted by nyle

I know Sage could supprt it well. Sage has to offer as many hardware options as possible. I guess we can wait but it's not like HD is new and without easy ways to bring HD into my HTPC, I'm going to be forced to migrate to a crappy cable DVR or a gasp Tivo and use my PC only for MP3 and AVC(MP4s)

I seriously doubt they would support this, especially since the card would be used in applications that it was not originally designed for.

Originally Posted by nyle

I guess I'm just anxious for more options. Please forgive my impatience.

Did I mention I hate HDCP/DRM and big medias attempt to just like the RIAA force everyone to buy everything from them. Including the hardware/software to allow the simple functionality that a PVR/DVR does? Unhfortunately, unlike MP3s most users don't know about or care to set up software PVRs to push the industry to open up like they are with the RIAA.

While it is true you can use this to get past the HDCP/HDMI issue, the ICT (Image Constraint Token) issue can still affect you. Your provider can implement this on your box and force all output from component to be downrezed to sub HD resolutions. Of course this is a big if.

[lpitman]

Wouldn't it be nice if this device was supported???

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

We need more choices especially since the major players Haupauge etc... keep us locked into obsolete standards.

* merged *

[GKusnick]

That device has been brought up any number of times here and some people have had success in getting it to work with Sage after a fashion:

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30607

The main issue is that its native recording format produces unacceptably high bit rates and large file sizes. To get down to reasonable file sizes requires additional software-based compression, making it very CPU-intensive. I don't think anyone has managed to record more than one program at a time with this method.

I believe there's also an issue with recording protected content via HDMI. To bypass DRM protection schemes, you must use analog component inputs for recording.

So far, the HD-PVR seems to be the only viable choice for hardware-encoding HD capture from any source.

[lpitman]

Well at least that's a reasonable explaination...to bad though, HDMI would make life so much easier.