DScaler/Elecard or other optimization beneficial for DLP Samsung with DVI from ATI??

[davedelite]

I have been using SageRecorder for up to 9 months now.....but I am going to step up to SageTV, and in doing so, I am starting to go back and optimize many aspects of my home theater SetUp.

In reviewing the forums there are always many discussions on picture quality optimization, tools like elecard/dscaler, ffdshow....etc. Much of this seems confusing to me....and I am not sure that with my set-up I can optimize any further.......so here is my question.

GIVEN...that I am running Sage on a PVR350 capture card with SVideo input from Samsung SIR-TS160 DTV box, and output with an ATI AIW 7500 via the DVI port to a Samsung HLM series DLP tv with DVI input (therefore true 720p native with the 1280 by 720 setting) and catalyst 3.9 ..... IS THERE ANY BENEFIT AT ALL to using other than the stock capabilities of Sage ....i.e. is it worth the effort to try elecard, dscaler, etc. etc. given my TV has 3:2 pulldown, DVDi by Faroudja, and all this other sexy stuff I don't understand....

Obviously, I want to optimize my PQ....we all always want to be running at the best we can. But I am concerned that I may not benefit at all from time spent, and actually end up worse off.

If anyone has optimized Sage with a like configuration.....I would love to know their set-up (i.e. any registry changes, color hues, etc. etc. best performance settings, etc.) Heretofo, I have only cranked up the bit rate to optimize...(obviously, a strongman and inefficient way to do it)

Thanks for any help

[mlbdude]

When you output via DVI are you outputting progressive or interlaced video?

[MixTracks]

davedelite, I have a HLN set, and have been using SageTV for the past 6 months.

I was also looking for different ways to get the picture better. I tried all the options listed here on the forums, but after all that I ended up keeping the default settings.

ATI 9800 to Samsung via DVI @ 1280x720
Hauppauge Decoders
All default selected in video setup

If you happen on somthing you like better, let me know, I would like to get another subjective sugesstion.

mlbdude, 720p is progressive. I do get some deinterlacing artifacts, even when I used dScaler.

[stanger89]

IS THERE ANY BENEFIT AT ALL to using other than the stock capabilities of Sage ....i.e. is it worth the effort to try elecard, dscaler, etc. etc. given my TV has 3:2 pulldown, DVDi by Faroudja, and all this other sexy stuff I don't understand....

When you feed the TV a 720p signal you are bypassing all that "sexy" stuff. On my 36" RCA HDTV @ 1280x1024i I am very happy with the Sonic Cineplayer decoders. TV looks as good as it can given my relatively poor cable feed, and DVDs are just awesome.

[davedelite]

Thanks Stranger89....that was my suspicion...but I had forgot the rational and you jogged my memory. Are you suggesting that I might see a performance increase with the Sonic Cineplayer decoders vs. the Intervideo NonCSS Video Decoder for Hauppauge?? i.e. Can a difference be made with the decoder selection here even if I am "bypassing" by going straight 720p? If so, and you think I should try, where do I get and is there any trick to install?

[mlbdude]

Just because you are outputting at 720p does not mean that you are sending progressive video. If you disable deinterlacing you will send interlaced video. Just like when you disable deinterlacing on your PC.

I asked because I was curious if you did send interlaced video if you could use all those built in features of the TV. 3-2 pulldown is quite a bit better than normal deinterlacing. I think you need to send the video out via Svideo though to get that benefit. But I am not sure .

[stanger89]

Yeah, you'd have to send the TV an interlaced signal to use the DCDi in the TV. I'm not sure if 480i over DVI would work or not. If Windows is set to 720p then as far as the TV is concerned it's recieving progressive video, regardless of how well or if the video you're playing was deinterlaced.

Different decoders will look different, some are better than others. As to whether they're better than the NonCSS ones for TV I can't really say, I never did any in depth comparisons. If you want to try the Cineplayer decoders just download the Sonic Cineplayer trial and install it: http://www.cineplayer.com After that just pick the Sonic decoders in SageTV.

[davedelite]

OK mlbdude and stranger89...I am now a tad confused. I will look at my settings tonight to see how I have it currently set up, but I think I have tried both. In any event, I have to look at my ATI AIW7500 and Catalyst 3.9 settings, since the settings in the video set-up of Sage have no effect, I think , because I am not using that Hauppauge card for output...just capture.

mlbdude, some follow-up clarifications. Basic, I know, but please confirm I have this right.

1) First, I can send progressive or interlaced stream to the TV, correct? And, the way to send progressive is to set the video card with "deinterlaced" active??? ...otherwise, it will be transmitting interlaced?

2) Progressive is considered usually better, correct?? (unless of course, the electronics on the HTPC side that is doing the progressive output this is lesser quality than the TVs ability to convert to progressive)...is my understanding still good on this?

3) Therefore, you were suggesting that I try two methods. Please confirm. Method (a) is with deinterlaced set to off and see if I can get the DVI connection to carry an interlaced signal to the TV and rely on the TV to do the progressive upconvert. Method (b) is to operate with deinterlaced active and to rely on the 720p output to the TV of a progressive stream. Is this correct?

4) In any case, I will not use SVideo because I understand it is far inferior to DVI and I will run into overscan management issues (one of virtues of the DLP and DVI is my image on the TV is a perfect match....just like a computer monitor)...therefore, with this constraint I will not be able to use the 3:2 and DCDi, etc. if the DVI connnection does not support interlaced.....correct?

Sorry for the nature of this thread, but I just wanted to make sure I am tracking with you guys and have the correct understanding......

stranger89...thanks for the insight on the decoders

[mlbdude]

I agree with stanger89 and it sounds like outputting via DVI does not give you the option to output a true deinterlace video signal. You could disable deinterlacing but then the TV would just play it back with all the interlacing artifacts. If you want to use your TV for the work you will probably have to go Svideo.

Progressive is better, however, since you are converting an interlaced signal to progressive by deinterlacing you will loose a little quality (mainly sharpness and get some motion blur). Different decoders and deinterlacing methods will produce different results. You will have to test them out yourself to see what you like best.

I use Elecard\DScaler with TomsMoComp or VideoWeave plugin. Both look good to me in sharpness and motion blur. Hardware deinterlacing in either Intervideo or Sonic decoders also looks pretty good. At some point it will come down to personal preference and depending on how far you want to take the PQ journey. If you are not picky, I would just try the Intervideo decoder with DXVA enabled. That seems to give the most bang for a little effort. Make sure you sleep Sage after each change though to force the media player to reload.

Good luck!

[stanger89]

I'm not sure what you are getting at with 1) but the rest of your statements are correct.

1) is also correct with the possible exception of this:

And, the way to send progressive is to set the video card with "deinterlaced" active??? ...otherwise, it will be transmitting interlaced?

I'm not sure where that setting is. Usually getting interlaced output from a PC is tricky, it usually involves Powerstrip or an ATI Component adapter (I've got a Radeon 9500).

The only way to get a benefit from using your TV's features (DCDi) would be to completely bypass any deinterlacing/scaling in you HTPC. This would require running your HTPC (Windows Desktop) at 720x480i. It might be harder than that, see mlbdude's interlaced output thread(s).

Overall I am very happy with the deinterlaced/scaled output of my HTPC for both TV and DVDs.

No need to apologise, questions like yours are the nature of this forum.

[davedelite]

How do you sleep Sage? Usually, when I make a change like this, I apply or save, close Sage, and reload it. Does this do the same thing? Or, is there a more elegant way to do it?

[stanger89]

Sleep is the bottom right button on the main screen, it puts sage into the system tray. It's usually sufficient to apply most settings in Sage.

[Tej]

If anyone has optimized Sage with a like configuration.....I would love to know their set-up (i.e. any registry changes, color hues, etc. etc. best performance settings, etc.) Heretofo, I have only cranked up the bit rate to optimize...(obviously, a strongman and inefficient way to do it)

Thanks for any help

Using a somewhat similar setup, - ATI AIW Radeon driving a Samsumg LCD panel via DVI - I have found an immense improvement in picture quality using the Elecard/dscaler combination. I use the "greedy" dscaler setting. The picture is so good now, even from basic cable, that I haven't felt the need to mess with registry settings, color hues, LCD tweaking, etc... I was also able to cut back the standard bitrate for encoding TV shows to DVD-long without a significant loss of picture quality, at least, not significant enough to lower the WAF

Best ~$20 upgrade to picture quality I've ever made

I think the Elecard codec comes with a two week trial. Why don't you try it out?

BTW, which model Samsung are you using, and how do you like it otherwise?

[mlbdude]

Tej,

Download the latest version of the DScaler application. With it will come updated plugins and a new one - TomsMoComp. Copy those into the common directory under Sage and overwrite the existing ones. I really like the TomsMoComp. Greedy is good too though.

[davedelite]

These DLP set top TVs that Samsung (and now others) have introduced are the cats meow. I only wish I wasn't so bleeding edge and had waited a few more months and purchased the HLN 467W vs the HLM437W I own. the 46" has a tiny bezel, mine is already small, but it is even better.......and would put a double explanation mark on the singular mark I can already use when I say, "Honey, ain't no way we can go bigger!" THe HLN series also has a the new Series 2 chip from TI which increase the contrast ratio, etc. The biggest challenge with these sets is the pq during darker movie scenes.....but the sets coming out in a couple months (I saw them at CES) have made marked improvement here........

Are there any other settings I should know about that I have to make sure are done one way or another in order to get the bang for buck you have out of elecard + dscaler?

[davedelite]

What was the $20 for? Did you have to purchase hte Elecard? I got a little confused when I went to their site because it seemed to indicate 21 day trial....like they sold the codec; whereas, Jeff indicates in the SAGE TV manual for version 1.4 that it is a free download. Is elecard/dscaler available free anywhere?

[gplasky]

No-eleecard has a 21 day demo. For $20.00 you purchase their player which includes the codec.

Gerry

[davedelite]

Ok....I am going to give the Elecard a try. What is the text string that I insert into the Sage.properties file in order to select Elecard in Sage? I presume will have to do this like I did when I tried out the Cyberlink won't I. What I am looking for is the text string that is comparable to the

Cyberlink Video/SP Decoder (ATI), Video In,Video Out

string that we use for Cyberlink....only I need it for the Elecard

[mlbdude]

Elecard does not require any additional lines in the properties file. Install it and it is ready to go. Keep in mind that the demo is version 2.0 (or was when I demoed it) and you can purchase 2.1 or even 2.2.

[gplasky]

2.2 there's now?

I just purchased it the other day (Sunday) and the download link they gave me was 2.1.


Bummer

Gerry