Basic help needed - analog phased out?

[cavalli]

I'm sure this is a very basic issue affecting many. Yes, I'm even sure it's already been discussed somewhere here already... I tried searching the forums, but my knowledge is relatively limited, so I'm not even sure what I'm searching for.

I just got off the phone with Comcast (regarding a channel issue) and they informed me that ALL my analog television will discontinue and that as of 2/1/08 I will need cable boxes for every TV / SageTV analog drop. This is the main reason I've stayed with cable over satellite in the first place, because I have 3 TV's and a 3 PVR250 tuner SageTV box.

Assuming this to be true, I'd rather have DirectTV over cable anyway, but I'm not sure how to go about having a 6 converter house. Comcast (at $7 each) sounds like a ripoff. From what I know of DirectTV, I don't even know if I can have 6 of them.

To get me started, is there any wider / smarter solution that can maximize what I have? Is there a basic hardware upgrade that can integrate the compatible tuner inside the box? Do I really need 6 external boxes and somehow control the 3 SageTV ones with the computer somehow?

ANY basic starter guidance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Conejo]

Originally Posted by cavalli

... I just got off the phone with Comcast (regarding a channel issue) and they informed me that ALL my analog television will discontinue and that as of 2/1/08 I will need cable boxes for every TV / SageTV analog drop.

Posted on most TV station websites:
"February 17, 2009 -- The deadline is coming!
If you receive any TV signals in your home by an antenna, you will need to convert to digital TV before February 2009. Congress has ordered all TV stations to turn off old analog signals on this date and only broadcast in digital TV afterwards. Click here to learn more about the federal deadline."

Rather than restate or rehash what has already been said x-number of times I'll direct you to these SageTV Forum links found via SEARCH:
Analog Cable-TV Customers
Feb 17 2009 - Bye bye analog broadcast tv
The Beginning of the End?

The searches really aren't that difficult. Try using 'February 17' or '2009' as your keywords. I'll let others chime in on your Sat Box questions.

[ToonGal]

Originally Posted by Conejo

The searches really aren't that difficult. Try using 'February 17' or '2009' as your keywords. I'll let others chime in on your Sat Box questions.

Yes, search is very easy to use (thanks for the tip and the links), but only if you know what keywords to use. Heck, I even acknowledged someone might already have threads regarding this issue. However, my post had nothing to do with verifying if analog was being phased out. My post acknowledged that as a given.

What I really need is practical advice for an overall solution: can this work for either cable or satellite, what choices of digital hardware should I investigate, is my 3-4 TV set + 3 PVR250 tuner SageTV box too many set top boxes to reasonable afford / technically work, what other devices are required to make it all work, etc.

I apologize if this too is 'easy' to find here, but I am basically lost in the technical jargon / abbreviations. I even hoped this would eventually be a 'sticky' for those less technical users who need to convert before the February deadline.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

[Conejo]

Cavalli, ToonGal - I'm confused, if I'm right I believe you're the first split personality, or psychically linked people, I've ever chatted with on this forum.

I only responded to a small section of the Original Poster's query, mostly because the date stated for Comcast's Analog drop dead date (02/01/08) precedes the NTSC broadcaster's drop dead date by over a year.

To say that Comcast will STOP all analog broadcasts... even on the Feb 2009 date, is just unimaginable. Here's a snippet I found from an October 2007 industry newsletter (.pdf):

Comcast plans to continue offering an analog tier; Revell said that having basic channels available without a set-top box adds value to the subscription. But the company is gradually moving what it calls “niche Channels” to the digital tier.

Yes, they want to 'slim down' their analog offering and push as much programming to digital (encrypted-QAM) to create artificial 'tiers' to increase their revenue stream via packaged subscriptions. As a bonus they can add more digital channels in the space previously occupied by the analog transmissions. But the cost... 15 years ago I never imagined a $65 fee for basic cable.

This means that your Analog tuners will still work but with a severely limited lineup (but how long, no-one knows) .

What are your options? This is really an open question.

With everything headed for digital, and HD digital at that, we can't use the Analog SD paradigm to evaluate our DVR options; there are few Digital HD HTPC paradigms available to work with, it's still being invented. And the biggest obstacle is DRM (Digital Rights Management), the 800lb gorilla that the pre-HDTV SD world didn't have to contend with.

You want the upper tier channels. That will require a Set Top Box with an authorized subscription, be it Cable, Satellite or FiOS. Now how to get it into your DVR when you only have the choice of RF-Out, Composite, S-video into your current cards -- or upping the quality and trying to record the Digital Streams while avoiding encryption and/or 5C flagged (copy protected) output.

The previous links I posted go into these matters.

My power just went out, which is probably a good thing.

[sainswor99]

I have been overly confused by this issue since the beginning, and various posting on the net have done little to clarify; however, there several avs boards have at least a few posts indicating that Comcast has decided to supply all of their subscribers with at least one digital conversion box, which would meet the FCC standard allowing them to discontinue carrying an analog tier after the February 2009 transition date.

In sum:

• in February 2009, analog broadcasting will stop. Cable companies are obligated by "must-carry" rules to carry local broadcasters.
• According to a September 11,2007 ruling by the FCC, cable companies must either: a) continue to provide analog versions of the local channels, as well as the digital SD and HD versions (if available), or b) provide a means for ALL subscribers to access digital content.
• Comcast has been cited on a number of occasions as being dissatisfied with the 9/11/2007 ruling, and has indicated that they will either slim down their analog offerings or move to eliminate them in various communities. (do a Google search for "comcast analog")

The OP's post of February 2008 doesn't sound unreasonable for Comcast to begin shifting their customer base; if they can supply all of their customers in a given area with a digital conversion box by February, 2009, they can stop transmitting the local analog streams in that area.

Stu

[MattHelm]

Originally Posted by cavalli

To get me started, is there any wider / smarter solution that can maximize what I have? Is there a basic hardware upgrade that can integrate the compatible tuner inside the box? Do I really need 6 external boxes and somehow control the 3 SageTV ones with the computer somehow?

ANY basic starter guidance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

I know you said DirectTV, but here is a quote from Dish network.

"F. Additional Tuners and Receivers. We may allow you to place additional receivers on your account in our sole discretion. Each additional receiver will be authorized to receive the same Services as your initial receiver. This option is only available if your initial DISH Network receiver and all additional receiver(s) are located at the same residence and are continuously connected to your same land-based telephone line. Unless otherwise specified in the customer agreement(s), if any, applicable to the promotion(s) pursuant to which you are receiving Services and/or Equipment, DISH Network will charge you a monthly additional outlet programming access fee (“Additional Outlet Programming Access Fee”) for each tuner activated on your account beyond the first. If you desire to receive Services at two different residential locations, you must open a separate account for each location. You agree that you will not directly or indirectly use a single account for the purpose of authorizing Services for multiple DISH Network receivers that are not all located in the same residence and connected to your same land-based telephone line. If we later determine that you did, we may disconnect your Services and, in addition to all other applicable fees, you agree to pay us the difference between the amounts actually received by us and the full retail price for the Services authorized for each DISH Network receiver on your account."

To me, it looks like you can have any number, but all must be hooked to the phone line. Now they might chanrge you extra for each receiver! Didn't see anything about that.

I used their "Design your system" web page, and it only lets you have 4 TVs. More than that, you have to call 888-825-2557. Give them a call.

[mistergq]

It is my opinion that Comcast is having their CSR to use tactics to scare consumers into getting more digital boxes. If you wanted to be prepared, you can pick up a USB-UIRT and extra IR emitters, s-video and audio cables, a stereo to mono head phone splitter so that you are ready to go when they discontinue service. Then once you find out they discontinued service, go down to their office, pick up a couple of boxes, and you will be back online pretty quick. but unless you want to record digital channels now, there is no reason to switch over...and it just gives coNcast more money now.

[kevine]

Originally Posted by cavalli

From what I know of DirectTV, I don't even know if I can have 6 of them.

I do not think anyone answered this question yet. Yes, you can have at least
7. I know that because I had that many when I was a customer. Now on cable because they charged $5 for additional receivers. However, the more difficult problem I had was connecting 7 receivers to my sage server. Plus, no
HD unless I got a R5000. You can search for that here if you wish.

Gotta run. Fire alarm going off at work.

[ybrew]

By default now, the most directv receivers you can order as a new customer is 6. You can probably get more, but you have to talk to a CSR to order that many.

I have 5 (2 HD DVRs and 3 basic receivers connected to sage).

Since I also have cable modem I have basic cable connected to a couple of other tuners. And I have 2 HD tuners connected and two others currently not in use.

I probably don't need the cable tuners, with the 3 dss and the 4 ota, but I will say I have very few conflicts!

I ditched cable last time the rates increased.

[GKusnick]

If you have only three capture cards, why would you need six STBs? The only reason you'd need an STB at the TV is to watch TV directly off the satellite without going through Sage. But you can just as easily watch live TV through Sage instead. So my advice would be to put all the STBs at the Sage server and none at the TVs. If three isn't enough for that, add a fourth capture card and STB. But it seems unlikely you'd need as many as six shows recording or being watched live at the same time.

Of course if there are kids involved, this would mean training them to hit Stop when they're done watching live TV in order to avoid tying up tuners indefinitely. For some folks this is apparently a deal-breaker. YMMV. (But then again, locating an STB at each TV is pretty much equivalent to tying up tuners indefinitely.)

[kevine]

Originally Posted by ybrew

I have 5 (2 HD DVRs and 3 basic receivers connected to sage).

Just curious, how do you connect your DTV receivers to Sage? Also, on the DVRs do you record there first and import to Sage? Thanks. I just want to keep my options open as well should cable raise the rates again.

[VCRUser]

I'm in a similar position to cavalli, with some additional issues. I am not (yet) a Sage user, but am considering it among other options. My most significant issue is being able to record multiple shows simultaneously without monthly STB fees. Currently, I have Comcast analog cable, which feeds multiple VCRs and DVD recorders via splitters and no STB. With these, I can program my multiple vcrs/dvd recorders to tape multiple shows simultaneously without paying extra connection fees, dvr fees, tivo fees, and every other fee the cable/fios/satellite systems would like to charge me beyond their basic fees, which are already over $50.

I live midway between the New York and Philadelphia markets, which means I can get virtually nothing over the air, even with my (admittedly ancient and until recent test-runs unused) rooftop antenna. (Looking into getting a better antenna) Most of what I like to tape is on the "broadcast" channels, and I like having the multiple PBS stations cable provides. But I also tape a few shows on non-premium cable channels.

So, I am looking for the best cost and convenience options. Since I occasionally tape 3 to 4 things at once, I'm worried about having enough DVR capabilit without excessive costs. I don't know if a better antenna would let me get these broadcast channels in digital, since I don't yet have a digital tuner.

I currently have an ATI All-In-Wonder 9000 Card, which does analog capture, and am running Windows 2000 on my main computer, which has 1G ram, Sempron 3000. I would prefer that any updated tuner cards I buy work under Win2K or at worst XP. I don't really want to buy a new Vista box if I can possibly avoid it. The main drawbacks I see for Cable (etc.)-provided DVR are:

1. Monthly fee for each DVR (will multiple tuners with Sage require multiple licenses on the Sage side and still require multiple cable-boxes to get the stations?)
2. Reliability issues with those DVRs (how reliable is Sage: if I tell it to record something, can I be as sure that it will do so as I am with my current VCR setup?)
3. Difficulty of offloading recorded shows for long-term storage (I know that for this purpose the Sage system would be superior; recording to VHS or DVD I just keep the machines "fed" and then watch/recycle as I choose).

What I *don't* care about:
1. Hi-def
2. On-Demand/PPV programming
3. Listings/services that guess what I might want to watch
4. Cable/satellite music
5. Sports
6. Movies

I welcome any thoughts, including specific recommendations, pointers to sources of good info on the true costs and capabilities of various setups, and comparisons of providers.

Thanks!
Edit/Delete Message

[Tiki]

VCR User. From what you have described as your needs, you are probably best off with a couple of Hauppauge 1600 or 1800 cards (the 1600 is PCI, the 1800 is PCIe) and Comcast. Each card has one Analog NTSC tuner plus one Digital ATSC/QAM tuner and can use both tuners simultaneously. They also have 1 Composite/S-Video input which can accept analog signals from a VCR or Cable Box. This can be used at the same time as the digital tuner, but only one analog input can be used at a time. All the encoding is done in hardware, so you can record a lot of shows simultaneously without requiring much computer power. These cards cost about $80.

Sage allows an unlimited number of tuners/tuner cards with a single license. If you want to connect multiple TV's to Sage, you will need 1 of the following for each extra TV:
1. A PC running Sage Client (each Client requires a separate license for ~$30).
2. A Hauppague SD extender (need a ~$30 license for each extender used at the same time, but Sage includes the license if you buy the extender through them).
3. A Sage HD Extender (license included).

For each of these options, the main Sage Computer and the Clients/Extenders must be connected to your home network via Ethernet or Wireless. Wireless connections tend to be bit spotty, so hardwire is best if possible.

A 4th option is to use the PlaceShifter to watch videos on your PC/Laptop, either over your home network or over the internet.

In my area, Comcast has slimmed down their analog offering to channels 2-20. Everything else requires a converter box or a QAM-capable tuner. As I understand it, many of the basic cable channels (2-100) will be encrypted and all of the premium channels will be encrypted. However, I don't think Comcast is allowed to encrypt anything that is broadcast unencrypted to begin with (local Network channels like ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, PBS, etc). If Comcast ever does completely phase out analog, you can still use the analog input with a set-top box from Comcast, Dish, Direct TV, or whoever. The Digital ATSC/QAM tuner won't work with Dish or DirectTV - only Cable or Antenna.

[VCRUser]

For Comcast (or for that matter, for satellite or Verizon FIOS), is whatever you get in clear qam something you can split for multiple tuners or locations, or do you still need STBs (and STB fees)? I was looking at some of the literature on the Hauppuage cards, and one mentioned that you could use only one IR blaster because of some driver issues. Can multiple tuners use the same IR blaster simultaneously (or nearly so) to blast different targets, or are you still stuck with one program at a time?