HDTV, QAM - General Questions

[ThePaladinTech]

Trying to learn some things about HD TV ... Right now I have nothing HD capable and I have lots of questions... So if anyone can help I'd be grateful!

1. I understand the different quality levels but how do you find out what quality a show is broadcast in? Hero's for instance... OR is it my choice what quality I view the show in? (something broadcast in 1080p I could record in 720p...)
2. I've read that you need some pretty hefty hardware to decode 1080i ... What about the other resolutions? and again what is recorded in 1080i? What's most popular for broadcast TV right now? I'm not a sports fan so that is unimportant to me. I have an AMD 64 3000+ as my server and was hoping to use a PIII 800Mhz as a client - what's the highest quality it will (probably) be able to decode? if the PIII 800 isn't up to the task then I'll look elsewhere.
3. This one may sound silly but I'm going to ask it anyway ... Can something recorded with Sage in HD be viewed on a SDTV? ... Obviously the video would have to be downgraded to SDTV - but is that possible? I don't see me having all HDTVs anytime soon so it would be nice to be able to record something in HD and view it on any TV (minus the hd quality of course)
4. Tuner cards - Is the HD homerun the only device capable of recording two clear QAM HD channels at one time?
5. Tuner Cards 2 - The Hauppauge PVR 1600 - I've read they are now capable of doing clear QAM HD ... is this a software fix (Meaning ALL PVR-1600 can do clear qam) or has the card been redesigned? And can it do two QAMs at once? Can the 1800? I’ve read their site but it’s not clear. The HD home run clearly states it will do two of everthing it does. I think the Hauppauge and avermedia offerings do one QAM/HD and one ATSC?
6. Plain old Digital Cable (non HD but digital) QAM - My current tuner Hauppauge MCE500 do not get the higher channels ... not sure if that is a big deal as I don't think I watch them too much.. Is Digital cable better then normal cable? I know they say it is but on my current SDTVs I don't see it at all.
7. Any benefit to upgrading to PCIe Tuner cards? this would require a new motherboard on my server.
8. a long shot – any got “Millenium Digital Cable” now renamed “broadstripe”? (First, if you do I’m sorry!, what a poor excuse for a cable company, but alas in my area the only choice) if you do how much of the content is available via Clear QAM?

All of these questions will help quide me in getting my sage theater set up- Right now it consists of the amd 64 3000+ server hooked to a 32 SDTV, and is recording non digital cable TV. my thoughts are:
get an HD Tuner (in order of probability HD HomeRun, a couple PVR 1600s, a couple pvr1800s and a different MB (AMD 939 most likely).

Second (after some time passes) getting an HDTV for the main viewing area. Once I have this I will be doing one of the following:
using the PIII 800 as the client (if it's good enough) - oh and it would have to be hooked up via VGA - this pc has no slots and only VGA out.
using the sage HD extender (if it exists when I get the HDTV)
building a client PC.

Final Question: is the limiting factor with SAGE (and everyone else for that matter) the limitation of UNENCRYPTED CLEAR QAM channels available? Or is there more to it then that?

Thanks for helping this n00b out

[malore]

1. Nothing is broadcast in 1080p, Blu-ray and HD-DVD can be 1080p. The networks choose which HDTV standard to use. NBC and CBS use 1080i, while FOX and ABC use 720p.
2. Search the forums for 1080i requirements, but a p3 800 isn't going to cut it.
3. I recorded HDTV and watched it on a SDTV for a half year. You can get DVD quality picture and 5.1 sound.
5. Only certain hardware version of the PVR-1600 support QAM, which also require updated drivers.
6. Digital cable isn't as susceptible to interface as analog cable, but is usually heavily compressed, so the picture may or may not look better than standard cable. Most digital channels are probably encrypted, which would require a cable card to view anyway.
7. The advantage of PCIe cards would be future compatibility, eventually PCI slot will probably be phased out. But then again cable might change so much that the current cards aren't useful anymore anyway.

[kevine]

Originally Posted by malore

1. Nothing is broadcast in 1080p, Blu-ray and HD-DVD can be 1080p. The networks choose which HDTV standard to use. NBC and CBS use 1080i, while FOX and ABC use 720p.

I believe what you are saying but I do have cable recordings that report 1080p in the detail description. Any reason why that might be?

[Djc208]

Originally Posted by enzominator

2. I've read that you need some pretty hefty hardware to decode 1080i ... What about the other resolutions? and again what is recorded in 1080i? What's most popular for broadcast TV right now? I'm not a sports fan so that is unimportant to me. I have an AMD 64 3000+ as my server and was hoping to use a PIII 800Mhz as a client - what's the highest quality it will (probably) be able to decode? if the PIII 800 isn't up to the task then I'll look elsewhere.

I have a 3000+ as my Sage machine (does recording and playback) and HD works on it but CPU usage is about 60~70% with nVidia decoder and a 6200LE. It looks good though the graphics card can't keep up in fast motion. So think of how much slower the P3 is and you'll see you're probably stuck, and if it has integrated graphics your even more out of luck.

Originally Posted by enzominator

3. This one may sound silly but I'm going to ask it anyway ... Can something recorded with Sage in HD be viewed on a SDTV? ... Obviously the video would have to be downgraded to SDTV - but is that possible? I don't see me having all HDTVs anytime soon so it would be nice to be able to record something in HD and view it on any TV (minus the hd quality of course).

If you look around lots of people already do this with their extender boxes, so the simple answer is yes. However most of the problems people have relate to the large CPU load this conversion requires (search for transcoding and you'll see).

Originally Posted by enzominator

4. Tuner cards - Is the HD homerun the only device capable of recording two clear QAM HD channels at one time?

In a single device yes that I know of. Otherwise you would need two traditional internal/USB HD tuner cards.

Originally Posted by enzominator

5. Tuner Cards 2 - The Hauppauge PVR 1600 - I've read they are now capable of doing clear QAM HD ... is this a software fix (Meaning ALL PVR-1600 can do clear qam) or has the card been redesigned? And can it do two QAMs at once? Can the 1800? I’ve read their site but it’s not clear. The HD home run clearly states it will do two of everthing it does. I think the Hauppauge and avermedia offerings do one QAM/HD and one ATSC?

The OEM windows versions are not capable of QAM according to Hauppage (though I though someone said theirs worked), the retail versions are all supposed to be. Hauppage's web site lists the part numbers that can handle clear QAM. To enable the feature you just have to install the newest driver pack.
My understanding of the 1600/1800 is that the 1600 is PCI and the 1800 is PCIe.
You are correct most of the hybrid tuners will allow one digital and/or one analog recording. The 1600/1800 can do one of each at the same time as it uses seperate tuners for analog and digital.

Originally Posted by enzominator

All of these questions will help quide me in getting my sage theater set up- Right now it consists of the amd 64 3000+ server hooked to a 32 SDTV, and is recording non digital cable TV. my thoughts are:
get an HD Tuner (in order of probability HD HomeRun, a couple PVR 1600s, a couple pvr1800s and a different MB (AMD 939 most likely).

You could probably just get by with the 3000+ and a decent graphics card (the previous or current generation ATI or Nvidia are good candidates) and a pair of 1600s or the HDHR and just keep using your existing analog card(s). You can also get most of the local digital channels in SD as well (OTA or clear QAM), which would save you from transcoding, then just turn on the HD channels when you get the HDTV.

Originally Posted by enzominator

Second (after some time passes) getting an HDTV for the main viewing area. Once I have this I will be doing one of the following:
using the PIII 800 as the client (if it's good enough) - oh and it would have to be hooked up via VGA - this pc has no slots and only VGA out.
using the sage HD extender (if it exists when I get the HDTV)
building a client PC.

If the P3 is using integrated graphics you're definitally not going to be able to use it for HD playback later, just not enough power for that. I'd get the HDTV first, there's really no reason to spend the money on all the HD hardware till you can use it.
After you get your HDTV you can add a 1600 or and HDHR (and maybe a better graphics card) to get HD channels and keep using your existing system. Or you can either move the 3000+ somewhere as a server and get an HD extender for the HDTV or build a faster system for the server and use the 3000+ as a client on your HDTV as your budget and preferences allow.

Originally Posted by enzominator

Final Question: is the limiting factor with SAGE (and everyone else for that matter) the limitation of UNENCRYPTED CLEAR QAM channels available? Or is there more to it then that?

Not really, there are ways around this, R5000 mods and firewire cable boxes mainly, but they tend to either be expensive (R5000) or troublesome and potentially limited (firewire), and the cost is multiplied by each tuner.
The limiting factor is cost/complexity vs return. It quickly becomes very expensive to get scrambled content into sage. Spending $500+ for the R5000 mod (on top of the purchase or rental cost of the box) times the number of simultaneous feeds you want to record + the cost of the Sage server vs just renting the cable companies DVR box makes Sage a bad investment very quickly.
Now if you placeshift a lot and/or have lots of TVs all hooked to Sage, and love the wow factor of this stuff then it may be worth it for you, no DVR box will match what Sage can do, but I'd guess there are really only a few such people here like that.

[malore]

Originally Posted by kevine

I believe what you are saying but I do have cable recordings that report 1080p in the detail description. Any reason why that might be?

I guess it's possible, but it doesn't seem likely to me because the majority of older non-1080p HDTVs can't handle a 1080p signal, so wouldn't be able to display anything. Plus there are reports of cable companies taking 1920x1080i and downsampling them to 1440x1080i because bandwidth is tight.

Give me a zipcode and program, because I'm curious to see what I can find out.

[kevine]

Originally Posted by malore

I guess it's possible, but it doesn't seem likely to me because the majority of older non-1080p HDTVs can't handle a 1080p signal, so wouldn't be able to display anything. Plus there are reports of cable companies taking 1920x1080i and downsampling them to 1440x1080i because bandwidth is tight.

Give me a zipcode and program, because I'm curious to see what I can find out.

I'll take a look tonight.

[ThePaladinTech]

Thanks for all the info-
I'm going with the HD tuner first for a few reasons: it's a fraction of the cost of the TV (and I'll need the tuner anyway), to find out how much HD content there is that I care about that I can get with Sage, When I get the HDTV we will have some content to watch... While I enjoy TV I find there is never anything 'on' so a PVR to catch the 'good stuff' is a must for me.

The comments about decoding HDTV with my PIII 800 have me wondering the following:
If I go with a hauppauge extender for my SDTV (bedroom), and the new Sage HDTV extender(LivingRoom) will my current server (an AMD 64 3000+, 2gig ram, ATI x800GTO AGP card, Win XP pro) be sufficient? (oh and the server will likely still be connected to the 32 SDTV)

If I must upgrade the server I may very well nix the Sage HD extender and find my existing mainboard a new home in an HTPC case... Not sure on that though - seems that would only save me $100 (and wouldn't need a seperate DVD player - which is appealing)

[Djc208]

Originally Posted by enzominator

If I go with a hauppauge extender for my SDTV (bedroom), and the new Sage HDTV extender(LivingRoom) will my current server (an AMD 64 3000+, 2gig ram, ATI x800GTO AGP card, Win XP pro) be sufficient? (oh and the server will likely still be connected to the 32 SDTV)

For just streaming content it should be fine, but transcoding HD recordings for the SD extender I'm not sure, I don't have an SD extender to have tried it. I think it would, assuming you weren't asking too much more from it at the same time (like HD playback on the server, SD playback might cause quality problems too).

[kevine]

Originally Posted by malore

I guess it's possible, but it doesn't seem likely to me because the majority of older non-1080p HDTVs can't handle a 1080p signal, so wouldn't be able to display anything. Plus there are reports of cable companies taking 1920x1080i and downsampling them to 1440x1080i because bandwidth is tight.

Give me a zipcode and program, because I'm curious to see what I can find out.

Just wanted to get back to you on this. So far, I have not found it on an MPEG2 recording. I have found it on MPEG4 recordings that were converted. It probably upconverted. Since I just started auto convert, this may have been what I saw. However, I will keep an eye on it.

[malore]

That sounds like the likely source of your 1080p recordings. SageTV gets its format information from the file and not from guide data. Examples of this can be found in the following thread: HD recordings listed as 480i