Need help with PQ on TVout

[krutaw]

I've been fighting with my PQ for quite some time now, and have the PQ looking absolutely stunning when I use the Hollywood Plus decoder card, however, it's not Wife friendly as you have to look at the monitor and the tv at the same time.

Anyway, I'm currently using a Xentor32 Maxi-Gamer TNT2Ultra video card that has tvout.

I had purchased a Geforce4 MX420 64MB PCI for my HTPC, however, the video out on it was even worse than the Xentor32.

I'm at my wits end trying to make the display look at least as decent as a vhs tape.

I had tried every codec that I could get my hands on when it finally hit me. . . it's not the codec that looks like crappy, it's the video on the tv. It doesn't matter what application I'm using, it just doesn't look right on the tv (text is blurry, graphics are smeared etc.)

On the Geforce4 MX420 the reds are over-whelming and I've tried playing with the hue / color settings etc.

If anyone has any ideas on what I could do to boost quality on the tv out on either of the cards that I already own, or recommend a video card to purchase that will have video quality similiar to a vcr, please let me know.

[mlbdude]

Both of those older video cards have horrible TV out quality. You can use a program called TVTool to help them but not sure how much.

Hollywood Plus decoder there really is not any video card you can get to exactly match the output of the Hollywood Plus decoder, but the newer ATI cards (9000+) are close. I have not has as good as luck with the newer nVidia cards 5200+ but some users swear by them too. Either of the low end cards in those lines should run around $50.

Good luck!

[krutaw]

Originally posted by mlbdude

but the newer ATI cards (9000+) are close. I have not has as good as luck with the newer nVidia cards 5200+ but some users swear by them too.

Okay, so if I go with say the ATI Radeon 9000 64mb AGP w/ tv out, the quality should be alot closer to the actual TV quality than the cards I'm using now?

I ask this because I'm going to use the "Best Buy Loaner Program" ... god I love being able to return stuff for 30 days... to test your theory out.

Btw, you were right, tvtool did like very little for the quality of the tvout of either the Xentor32 or the MX420. I think I will be putting the MX420 up on ebay.

[justme]

Like mlbdude said no regular video card will ever match the PQ of a hardware decoder like the H+, Xcard, or PVR350. But you can come close. However if the videocard you try does not meet yout expectations, you might want to look at using some kind of setup to automatically switch your TV's input to each output when needed/wanted. ie H+ for watching Mpegs on TV and the Videocard for when you watch AVIs or want the OSD on the TV.

There are all kinds of kludges out there that switch the inputs automatically. Some people use Girder with an IR blaster. Some people program micros into their remotes that handle the switch. I personally want to work on a external SVHS switch that is controlled by Sage's current condition. Maybe Sage2 will somehow allow for better control over which source is selected. Since only Sage really knows what it's doing at that moment, this would be the best solution. IMO

[krutaw]

Originally posted by justme
Like mlbdude said no regular video card will ever match the PQ of a hardware decoder like the H+, Xcard, or PVR350.

That's what I'm really concerned about... See, I want the quality to look just as good as the Tivos that I've played with, and to be quite honest, right now it's just not the case. Now, with the hardware decoder, it surpasses it, but perhaps that's what the aim really should be anyway.

I guess I'm just going to wait to see what Sage 2.0 has support for before I proceed at all. I mean, I hate spending mulah when I'm not 100% sure. And they have said that the PVR-350 will have OSD support through it's output, so if that's all that is supported, it would be well worth the expense.

Thanks for all the replies guys... I'll let you know what I come up with once Sage 2.0 comes out.

[ErsatzTom]

Originally posted by justme
Like mlbdude said no regular video card will ever match the PQ of a hardware decoder like the H+, Xcard, or PVR350.

This is an issue which I've been a little concerned about. I'm planning on building a STB in about a month. I want to use the Antec Minuet case w/ a PowerColor ATI 9600 low profile video adapter. I'm worried, though, that I'll get the whole thing put together and be really unhappy with the PQ and be stuck. One possibility that I've been playing with is trying to make an xcard fit if I hate the way the video out looks on my sd set. While it is clearly a full height card, it IS shorter than the bracket. I was thinking that it just might fit in the case with the bracket removed or cut down and a little creative cutting of the case. I guess when I have the case in front of me I'll have to ask someone who has one of these to measure its vertical clearance off the motherboard.

t

[mlbdude]

The main problem with outputting via your video card rather than a hardware decoder is that you need to deinterlace. If you do this properly you won't have that issue. Also, you can then throw in ffdshow to take the image even further. By doing this I have an image that we like better than the original.

However, for standard def TV's the easiest way (especially if you are not comfortable with using the additional filters) to get full quality is with either a hardware decoder or a Matrox card using DVDMax. However, with the Matrox card I have heard of users having driver issues.

Also, don't forget that outputting TV via a hardware decoder will make the video worse for HD TV's. So when/if you upgrade you will have to revisit using video card out.

[ErsatzTom]

Well, I don't mind tinkering with additional filters and the box should have enough horsepower to run ffdshow. I'm planning on using it for a bit of gaming so it won't be totally wimpy. Guess I'll have to cross that bridge when I get there.

t

[krutaw]

Originally posted by mlbdude

Also, don't forget that outputting TV via a hardware decoder will make the video worse for HD TV's. So when/if you upgrade you will have to revisit using video card out.

Why would it make the PQ worse with a hardware decoder on an HD TV?

[mlbdude]

HDTV's expect a progressive image and not the low resolution interlaced one put out by a hardware decoder.

Once you get an HDTV you can use your HTPC as a post processor and line doubler. Or you can buy a set top version for $1000 .

I think with the XCard though you can still use it for outputting a progressive image (XCard owners will have to chime in), however, other than CPU usage you won't get a better image than what your video card can do via DVI, VGA, or Component.

[mikejaner]

I would do it in Xcard, if possible, though, I don't think it does line doubling. I would then get a hardware based line doubler. IMHO everything you can do in hardware vs software is always the better way to go. Software has too many chances to fail, and if you rely on it for too many things(decoding, deinterlacing, post processing, line doubling), your bound to run into problems more often.

BTW, for my own knoledge, and I've asked this before, how does a line doubler improve an image. How can a source look better after it has doubled in resolution. I keep thinking about taking a 800X600 image and stretching it on my 1600X1200 desktop, and I see no improvement in the image........

My $0.02
Honer

[mlbdude]

The AVS Forums is a great resource when you get into the HDTV HTPC stuff. You should find everything you ever wanted there.

Increasing the resolution of an image will make it "appear" sharper as well as assist in removing any aliasing (jaggies) on the image. Also, when doing some post processing like noise reduction it is more efficient to do it on a higher resolution image. Of course you can go too far as well and end up making it look worse.

There are lots of discussion on the AVS Forums about ffdshow and DScaler and how it is better than any hardware out there right now. Especially when the hardware they compare it to is in the $3000+ range.