SageTV HD Media Extender

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

As far as I know, all broadcast signals are interlaced, whether it's HD or SD. HD is at 1920x1080 interlaced at 29.97fps square pixel. SD is at 720x480 interlaced at 29.97fps non-square/D1 (0.9) pixel. This is the standard broadcast format, regardless of the source, which maybe 24fps or 30fps depending on where it comes from.

So where do you get content that's 1080p/30 or 1080p/60? Are the contents on Blu-ray/HD-DVD really 1080p or are they 1080i and the hardware on the player is deinterlacing it to 1080p?

No, a couple of the networks here in OKC broadcast in 720p. 1080i and 720p are broadcast standards. 1080p is only used on HD-DVD and BD.

[KarylFStein]

For a minute I thought I'd wandered in to avsforum...

I'm just planning to pass the source signal to the TV and let it do what it needs to do to display it. If it looks bad, guess I'll have to get a new TV .

[mikejaner]

Originally Posted by KarylFStein

For a minute I thought I'd wandered in to avsforum...

I'm just planning to pass the source signal to the TV and let it do what it needs to do to display it. If it looks bad, guess I'll have to get a new TV .

LOL, I might have to go buy a scaler after Stangerpedia let me know how much I am missing out!! Anyways, thanks for the info Stanger. I tried to hold my own

[bialio]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Regardless of that, 1080i can transmit all content (available today, ie 1080p24, 1080p30, 1080i60) 'losslessly'.

If the Stangerpedia has time, could you elaborate a little more on this point? Specifically about 1080p24 -> 1080i60?

Thanks,
btl.

[autoboy]

As collin stated correctly is that you don't lose resolution when you deinterlace, you lose it when you interlace an image. So I would worry about video content that is scaled from 480i to 1080p then interlaced, as well as 720p video content like all my football games, that is then scaled to 1080p, then interlaced. With video you end of losing some resolution on camera movements.

One other thing I could do, is to use my regular extender for SD content and pipe it into the ReonVX scaler to get the best SD image quality, and then set my HD extender to 1080i and maybe sacrifice some 720p clarity. My GF would just use the HD externder all the time, but with a Logitech remote, this would be pretty seemless to me. It's a thought. I am probably worrying too much. This wait is killing me. I think i will just go ahead and get the damn Onkyo 875 and be done with it. If I don't use it, oh well, i'll have it if I need it.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mikejaner

LOL, I might have to go buy a scaler after Stangerpedia let me know how much I am missing out!! Anyways, thanks for the info Stanger. I tried to hold my own

I don't have one either. Not yet. If I decide the HD extender can replace my HTPC, I'll probably upgrade my AVM20 to a spiffy Gennum VXP processor /drool

Originally Posted by bialio

If the Stangerpedia has time, could you elaborate a little more on this point? Specifically about 1080p24 -> 1080i60?

Thanks,
btl.

Put most simply... if your progressive framerate is less than or equal to 1/2 your interlaced refresh rate, you don't have to discard any information to transmit the image as interlaced fields, you just split them up.

To illustrate:

Easiest case is 1080p30 -> 1080i60. You simply send even fields one refresh, and odd the next, rinse, lather repeat with next frame.

1080p24 -> 1080i60 is a little trickier since they're not even multiples, so it ends up being even, odd, even, <start next frame> odd, even, odd, <start next frame>, etc.

With either of these, all fields are intact.

1080p60->1080i60, you lose something:
even, <start next frame> odd, <start next frame> even ....

You lose half your fields this way.

Originally Posted by autoboy

As collin stated correctly is that you don't lose resolution when you deinterlace, you lose it when you interlace an image.

Actually deinterlacing is exactly the point where you can lose resolution. Asside from the converting 60p to 60i, nothing need be lost by transmitting a stream interlaced vs progressive.

So I would worry about video content that is scaled from 480i to 1080p then interlaced, as well as 720p video content like all my football games, that is then scaled to 1080p, then interlaced. With video you end of losing some resolution on camera movements.

Yeah, you would lose something in that conversion, 60p to 60i.

[bialio]

Originally Posted by stanger89

1080p24 -> 1080i60 is a little trickier since they're not even multiples, so it ends up being even, odd, even, <start next frame> odd, even, odd, <start next frame>, etc.

So if my math is correct, comparing refresh rates of 24 and 60, for every 2 refreshes on the 24p side there are 5 on the 60i side.

So each progressive frame from 24p source has to be spread over 2.5 refresh cycles in the 60i container.

Is that where 3:2 pulldown comes from? first progressive frame [even, odd, even] second progressive frame [odd, even], then repeate?

btl.

[Baylo]

Yes, that's essentially correct. You can see from this that every other frame (progressively speaking), half the the frame - either the odd or even field - gets repeated. This means two things:

1) All the information from a 24p source that has been converted to 60i can be reconstructed with a good de-interlacer - it's simply a matter of finding the right fields and reconstructing the full frame. This is why the fact that HD-DVD players can currently *only* do 1080i, while Blu-Ray does 1080p is actually largely irrelevant to the ongoing HD debate, since the 1080p frame can be reconstructed anyway. At least when we're talking about film sources at 24p.

2) This is why you see credits at the end of films judder their way up the screen rather than moving smoothly. Although we've become so used the effect we hardly notice it these days...

Mark

[cncb]

You would think that with all this banter that some of it would actually be about the HD extender (at least I read through every recent post hoping that was the case) . I would consider next week the "middle of November" so here's hoping...

[Taddeusz]

I'm personally waiting on pins and needles for the HD extender. I've gotten a Mac Mini and Leopard to satiate my desire for new technology.

[CollinR]

Mini ITX systems have dropped like mad too. SD XP Pro clients can be built in the $450 range and P4 C2D HD HDCP units a couple hundred more. They probably won't have the stability of an extender but they will have much more flexability with a full Windows XP (or Vista I guess) install.

[Enormous]

Originally Posted by CollinR

They probably won't have the stability of an extender but they will have much more flexability with a full Windows XP (or Vista I guess) install.

Been there, done that for many years now. I'm more than ready to trade some flexibility for stability and ease of use. I can't express how happy I'll be with a solid device that my wife won't have to complain about rebooting if something goes wrong! I get so much less grief troubleshooting the MVP ("just unplug it and plug it back in") than I do my full client.

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by Enormous

Been there, done that for many years now. I'm more than ready to trade some flexibility for stability and ease of use. I can't express how happy I'll be with a solid device that my wife won't have to complain about rebooting if something goes wrong! I get so much less grief troubleshooting the MVP ("just unplug it and plug it back in") than I do my full client.

Well put, that's exactly the same way I feel

[geogecko]

Originally Posted by Enormous

Been there, done that for many years now. I'm more than ready to trade some flexibility for stability and ease of use. I can't express how happy I'll be with a solid device that my wife won't have to complain about rebooting if something goes wrong! I get so much less grief troubleshooting the MVP ("just unplug it and plug it back in") than I do my full client.

I'll third that.

On top of that, if the power glitches, I've got either a hard drive case that remains off, even after a power outage, or a router that loses it's mind...

[briands]

Originally Posted by geogecko

I'll third that.

On top of that, if the power glitches, I've got either a hard drive case that remains off, even after a power outage, or a router that loses it's mind...

UPS? I've bought several small ones just to cover power glitches...

[geogecko]

Originally Posted by briands

UPS? I've bought several small ones just to cover power glitches...

I will be checking this out soon. All I need is about 20 seconds of coverage, which shouldn't be too difficult, or expensive.

[Apap]

Originally Posted by briands

UPS? I've bought several small ones just to cover power glitches...

It's the only way to go!

Central Floriduh is full of lightning in the summer. An indirect hit on the power grid within 10 miles of me usually results in a 1 to 5 second dropout and subsequent power surge. All my major electronics have UPS protection. I consider it a well spent investment for the aggravation factor alone.

[LehighBri]

Originally Posted by Narflex

Q: When will it be available?

The target for release is mid-November, in plenty of time for holiday purchasing and gift giving.

mid-November will be here before we know it... any update here? It'd be great if you could continue to be transparent about this... I'm happy to get an update that says "we had to push this back to x date for such and such reason" instead of mid-November arriving and us not hearing anything. Tick tick tick...

[mdnttoker]

Originally Posted by Apap

It's the only way to go!

Central Floriduh is full of lightning in the summer. An indirect hit on the power grid within 10 miles of me usually results in a 1 to 5 second dropout and subsequent power surge. All my major electronics have UPS protection. I consider it a well spent investment for the aggravation factor alone.

All UPS's die after about a year...such a waste of money...and replacement batteries are not cheap

[KarylFStein]

I get about 3 years out of mine (APC branded batteries), but no, they're not cheap. With the HD extender, that will be one less UPS I have to maintain...That means in 12 years or so, it'll pay for itself .