Sage Super System Setup

[pcgoober]

I am looking to build a brand new Linux Sage super system and would like an expert to tell me how many video cards, etc I would need to achieve my desired configuration. Here is what I am looking to cover with full simultaneous functionality on all of the TVs but only simple viewing/watching ability from laptops in my home.

Use 1 Linux powered server running Sage with all necessary hardware to handle all TVs/laptops simultaneously.

None of the TVs will have direct access to the server's tuner cards.

Prefer not to have any PCs located upstairs (basement server only).

6 TVs

2 wireless laptops that don't have a TV cards.

2 desktops that don't have a TV cards but I can add them if needed.

all PCs not located in the basement will be connected via wireless conns to network dhcp server.

On each tv, be able to record at least 2 channels simultaneously. Or at least be able to record 4 channels total (2 per TV) from any TV and watch/pause/swap between 2 channels on the rest that are not recording.

How many TV & video cards would the server need? I also read in the FAQ that each instance of Sage requires its own TV tuner. Would that require me to run a Sage process in its own virtualized (KVM/Xen) instance of Linux or can I simply run multiple process instances of Sage in a single (non-virtualized) Linux instance and assign cards at Sage startup?

Hopefully I provided a good idea of what I am trying to achieve but if I didn't please don't hesitate to ask clarifying questions. Thanks in advance for the 411.

Cheers,

Kev

[jpappas]

Originally Posted by pcgoober

I am looking to build a brand new Linux Sage super system and would like an expert to tell me how many video cards, etc I would need to achieve my desired configuration. Here is what I am looking to cover with full simultaneous functionality on all of the TVs but only simple viewing/watching ability from laptops in my home.

I am not sure that I am an expert, but I am going through the same exercise, so here goes. I do not know your budget, so I am going with my current choices (any feedback welcome).

Right now I have a P4 2Ghz Compaq, 1G Ram, and 3 PATA HDDs (2x 300G, 500G). My card is currently a Hauppauge WinTV-PVR 500 MCE (2 Simultaneous SDTV Recordings). I am running 2 TVs with Hauppauge MediaMVP (1 wired, 1 wireless), and have 3 PC Clients. The MediaMVPs are by far the heaviest users.

There are several constraints that you should consider:
-- Since the recordings are captured and stored on the server, the TVs only need clients, not capture devices.
-- It is reported that there can only be 4 Wireless MediaMVPs on a single network, I have not tested.
-- If you want HDTV, I have not tested any of that yet (hence the purpose for the upgrade)

Originally Posted by pcgoober

Use 1 Linux powered server running Sage with all necessary hardware to handle all TVs/laptops simultaneously.

Sure. I use openSUSE 10.2 because that what I use for everything, but it has worked for me on Ubuntu Edgy and SageTV is officially supported on Gentoo. If I didn't have to manage 12 openSUSE systems anyway, I would probably go with Gentoo.

The operation of the box itself is not terribly CPU or Memory intensive, so the system really only eats up a TON of HDD (I use 2G/hr/channel SDTV) I am not sure what the HDTV streams are, but I wouldn't think that 8G/Hr/Stream is unreasonable. So for capture, HDD space is king. So depending on your budget and paranoia level, you may want to use a RAID setup for your storage. I am going to be using RAID 5, so I need at least 3 drives=2 drives of storage space. SO if I get 4x 500G, I will have 3x 500G of video storage.

The only way that I know of right now to drive an HDTV with Sage Captured HD content is to use a PC connected to the display running a SageTV Client. So keep that in mind. They are looking to release a HD capable MediaMVP (See other discussion) but I have very little info on this.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

None of the TVs will have direct access to the server's tuner cards.

True. SageTV runs/coordinates the capture, access, and storage of the recordings.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

Prefer not to have any PCs located upstairs (basement server only).

Sure. You need some type of client machine to run the SageTV Client, either a PC or MediaMVP to access the SAGETV Server and drive the display (TV/LCD/Whatever)

Originally Posted by pcgoober

6 TVs
2 wireless laptops that don't have a TV cards.
2 desktops that don't have a TV cards but I can add them if needed.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

all PCs not located in the basement will be connected via wireless conns to network dhcp server.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

On each tv, be able to record at least 2 channels simultaneously. Or at least be able to record 4 channels total (2 per TV) from any TV and watch/pause/swap between 2 channels on the rest that are not recording.

I rarely watch Live TV, as I mostly watch recordings (In my mind, this is the point of the DVR concept). Remember that recordings are not related to the TVs or Clients but completely driven by the server. SO rather than determining the channel count by endpoints (PCs/Clients), you need to determine how many channels you want to watch at one time (Again, Each endpoint can watch the same channel at the same time, it is only Simultaneous Live TV channels that matter, as all endpoints can watch any number of different recordings at the same time). I find it unlikely that you will be watching 4 different channels at the same time, but with 3x PVR-500 cards, you can get 6 SDTV channels simultaneously.

Also Remember that bandwidth is the issue here. Since you have a high number of wireless clients, you may have to run multiple access points on different channels to have satisfactory video quality. I have 2 WAPs on channels 1 and 12 in order to offset wireless interference.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

How many TV & video cards would the server need? I also read in the FAQ that each instance of Sage requires its own TV tuner. Would that require me to run a Sage process in its own virtualized (KVM/Xen) instance of Linux or can I simply run multiple process instances of Sage in a single (non-virtualized) Linux instance and assign cards at Sage startup?

I don't completely understand the question, but AFAIK you can have SageTV control multiple video sources at the same time, so I only run 1 instance of SageTV with 2 video sources. I am looking to run 1 SageTV instance with 2 HD and 2 SD TV Capture sources to drive 3 TVs and 3 PCs. I never expect to have 4 different things that I want to see being broadcast at the same time, so 4 encoders should do it.

Some background Info. I have decided to go with Intel for the cpu because it seems to be faster with ffmpeg. Since that is the methodology that SageTV uses to do Placeshifting and transcoding to other formats, that was the most important thing for me.

So my config at this point looks to be the following (all prices from NewEgg):
-- GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3R LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard ($129)
This is a very nice MoBo for the price, plus 8 SATA!
-- Intel Core2 Quad Q6600 2.4GHz Processor BX80562Q6600 ($289)
I chose quad core, so that I can safely run 4 transcode processes at the same time (ie 2 Placeshift and 2 convert to DVDs)
-- Kingston 1GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Desktop Memory Model KVR800D2/1GR ($107)
Since RAM is not a limiting factor, I went with 2 GB just in case, And a pair allows for Dual Channel DDR.
-- Maxtor DiamondMax 21 STM3500630AS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s ($99)
Good price for good drives. Since the MoBo has 8 SATA ports, 500GB drives leaves me with 4TB RAW storage. Cool. The 750s are 2x the cost and the 1TB are over 3x.

There is some debate about the case. I am looking at either the COOLER MASTER Centurion 5 CAC-T05-UW ($50) for the economy case with enough room for 8 HDDs, or the very cool Antec Nine Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower ($139). Check it out, very sweet case.

As for the encoders, this is a tough one as well. I am looking at the (currently unsupported) HDHomeRun, as well as the (currently unsupported) HVR-1600. I like the HVR-1600 as 2 of them fulfill my needs of 2 HD and 2 SD TV tuners. On the other hand, the HDHomeRun is a network connected dual tuner HDTV tuner. In that case, I would use the PVR-500 as well, so that would be the 2x2 that I am looking for. There has been discussion on the AverTV A180 on Linux, so that is an option, but it is a single tuner.

Hope that helps!
John

[pcgoober]

Thanks for the info John, I appreciate it. Here are a few replies to your comments. And, using your info, at the end of this message I have summed parts list up into a final tally that I believe I'll need, could you check that over to see if I missed anything.

Another item of extreme interest is which TV tuners to get that won't need to be swapped out once all broadcast signals go digital in 2009. I will be using comcast extended basic cable (or maybe directtv if comcast pisses me off) to feed the cards so I don't think that would affect the purchase but I would like not to have to pony up more cash for new cards in a year. And what is the significance between cards that use the PAL/SECAM tuner or the NTSC tuner?

...you need to determine how many channels you want to watch at one time (Again, Each endpoint can watch the same channel at the same time, it is only Simultaneous Live TV channels that matter...

I don't completely understand the question, but AFAIK you can have SageTV control multiple video sources at the same time...I never expect to have 4 different things that I want to see being broadcast at the same time...

Here is where the rubber meets the road for me as I'm trying to duplicate the comcast dvr functionality and I want each TV set to act as if it were the only TV on the sage system. As an added bonus I would also like to be able to have laptop/PCs be able to pull in a live channel just in case we are out on the deck having some beverages but they don't have TV tuner cards so I'm not sure they would need a tuner card first.
I want to be able to watch and/or pause or watch and/or record at least 2 different live TV channels on every TV set simultaneously. I hate commercials so bad that it is nothing for me to pause a couple different shows/games at once then watch one until the buffer runs out then pause it and switch to a different show/game that has a good buffer built up. I, unlike my wife, rarely record shows in full to be watched later. The problem lies where she wants to be recording when I want to be buffering and watching, not enough lines to go around then.

I do not know your budget

Well I figure that the ROI won't take too long if you compare the prices Comcast is charging these days for a single DVR so I guess I'll bite the bullet and put out the cash needed to have a transparent experience and functionality for all of my TVs provided the sage system can do the job.

The MediaMVPs are by far the heaviest users...the TVs only need clients...You need some type of client machine to run the SageTV Client, either a PC or MediaMVP to access the SAGETV Server and drive the display

I'm guessing that the SageTV Media Center hardware Sage is selling for 150$ is roughly the same as the Hauppauge MediaMVP just cheaper cause you don't have to purchase the additional client license? Per your comment, this piece of hw is considered the "client"?

It is reported that there can only be 4 Wireless MediaMVPs on a single network, I have not tested.

That seems like a artificial limitation, and would really bite if indeed true.

...SageTV is officially supported on Gentoo.

If I can get away with simply using their all-in-one canned installer CD to run everything then that is what I would use, the flavor of distro isn't important to me.

Also Remember that bandwidth is the issue here. Since you have a high number of wireless clients, you may have to run multiple access points on different channels to have satisfactory video quality. I have 2 WAPs on channels 1 and 12 in order to offset wireless interference.

I was wondering about this and thought it may be an issue. My wireless link speed is 52Mbps. I have no problem purchasing more links provided that I can lock down the extenders via its MAC address and run encryption to keep the network safe from prying eyes.

I have decided to go with Intel for the cpu...

I'm an AMD fan so I'll live with what it gives me. In the end, for the server, I'll likely purchase a SMP board and run 2 x64 multi-core (Opteron/Athlon - doesn't matter) CPUs. Max out the RAM and run a JBOD setup for the largest set of SATA disks the board will support. Initially I have a desktop sitting idle that I will test the sage setup out on first before plunking down all the cash for the fancy server and other hardware.

As for the encoders...

I don't need a HD signal for anything so whatever TV card supports capturing regular extended basic cable and HBO plus has multiple cable tuner inputs I will go with. PCI slots are limited so if I can get 2 tuner inputs per card x4 cards then I can have 8 live channels humming at once, correct?

**** final tally for a fully linked home ****

[In server]
a) 1 SageTV Media Center for Linux V6.1 OEM Edition

b) 4 single/dual channel WINTV-PVR- (X?) (NSTC or PAL/SECAM ?). I guess I would go with the cheapo 150 if they'll all need swapping out in 2009. However, if the analog tuner isn't of consequence when using cable/satellite then I'd go with the dual channel cards so I can get 8 input lines out of 4 cards.

*** Any special video card needed or will the onboard video do ok?

[rest of house]
c) 6 SageTV Wireless Media Extenders
d) 6 wireless access points (one for each extender above)
e) 4 SageTV Placeshifters (one for each laptop/PC)

Does this sound like it will do job for what I'm looking to do?

Thanks!

[pcgoober]

One more question too. Comcast requires a digital receiver to get a channel lineup we want on at least 1 tv. I'm guessing that box would have to go in between the outside hookup and 1 tv tuner input on the server correct?

[mohanman]

Have you guys seen those new linux mce computers called firestation or something? Looks pretty cool, I think...

Mo

[jpappas]

Originally Posted by pcgoober

Another item of extreme interest is which TV tuners to get that won't need to be swapped out once all broadcast signals go digital in 2009.

I am not a interface/capture expert, so I don't know the answers to these questions. I would expect that any of the QAM/ATSC tuners should be able to get DTV and/or HDTV. Unless you already get all digital channels, there will be some swapping, since the analog tuners don't do digital.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

I will be using comcast extended basic cable (or maybe directtv if comcast pisses me off) to feed the cards so I don't think that would affect the purchase but I would like not to have to pony up more cash for new cards in a year.

AFAIK, basic cable is still analog, so an analog (NTSC) tuner is required. For capture from an external box (DirecTV) an analog capture device would be required as well.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

And what is the significance between cards that use the PAL/SECAM tuner or the NTSC tuner?

PAL is non-US broadcast analog encoding, as is SECAM. Look at the link, and the map shows the analog encoding used in different countries.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

Here is where the rubber meets the road for me as I'm trying to duplicate the comcast dvr functionality and I want each TV set to act as if it were the only TV on the sage system.

If you want a non-centralized media setup, it seems that a SageTV centralized media server is not the way to accomplish that. I wanted to have all of my media centralized, accessible from all of my devices, hence the central DVR.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

As an added bonus I would also like to be able to have laptop/PCs be able to pull in a live channel just in case we are out on the deck having some beverages but they don't have TV tuner cards so I'm not sure they would need a tuner card first.

Remember that the server controls all encoders, so ANY number of endpoints can watch a tuner's current channel, so unless you have 6 DIFFERENT channels on at the same time, you probably do not need as many tuners as you think.
Endpoints (typically) don't have tuners, so the clients retrieve the captured streams from the server. Clients do not directly access the capture stream, rather they are served it from the server.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

I want to be able to watch and/or pause or watch and/or record at least 2 different live TV channels on every TV set simultaneously.

Remembering that this is a completely shared system, a single DVR-500 will provide that functionality. I do think that feeding the number of clients you have will only require 4 video sources, but you need to determine whether you will be watching ABC, CBS, HBO, HGTV, Discovery, & NIC all at the same time. The clients always watch a recorded stream, so you need to stop thinking about the tuners as a per client resource.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

I hate commercials so bad that it is nothing for me to pause a couple different shows/games at once then watch one until the buffer runs out then pause it and switch to a different show/game that has a good buffer built up. I, unlike my wife, rarely record shows in full to be watched later.

I do not have your usage pattern, so I am only judging from my point of view, which is more like your wife, as I almost never watch live TV. I am driven by the content and do not want to be constrained by time, so that is why I use sagetv.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

The problem lies where she wants to be recording when I want to be buffering and watching, not enough lines to go around then.

So if there are 2 of you, and you want to have 2 different channels available to you, and you want to have one available for her, then 4 tuners will be more than that. Regardless, I would start with 4 and if you see that you are bumping into each other regularly, you can always add another video source later.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

I'm guessing that the SageTV Media Center hardware Sage is selling for 150$ is roughly the same as the Hauppauge MediaMVP just cheaper cause you don't have to purchase the additional client license?

True, it is the MediaMVP+License combo. You need an "Extender" license for each MediaMVP (or PlaceShifter), and a "Client" License for each PC that runs the Client. The Placeshifter is considered an Extender, so that is a different license.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

Per your comment, this piece of hw is considered the "client"?

I call it a client as it is getting content from the server, but in the License vernacular, it is actually an "Extender"

Originally Posted by pcgoober

That seems like a artificial limitation, and would really bite if indeed true.

It is a bandwidth/QoS issue. I have found that when I have multiple streams playing over the same WAP, there tends to be some quality issue. Remember that 802.11 is a shared medium, so with more traffic comes more collisions/interference, so it is more of a real limitation than an artificial one.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

I was wondering about this and thought it may be an issue. My wireless link speed is 52Mbps. I have no problem purchasing more links provided that I can lock down the extenders via its MAC address and run encryption to keep the network safe from prying eyes.

More links will probably not buy you as much as you would like. 802.11 uses spread spectrum methodologies, so a WAP on channel 6 also uses channels 5 and 7. Channel 6 is more like the "average". So if you use a WAP on 1, 6, and 12; you will be using channels 1,2,5,6,7,11,12. You could "fit" WAPs in 3-5 (Chan 4) and 8-10 (Chan 9), but I don't think that your return will be worth the cost. And again, you can always add more. As for encryption, I run different WAPs for Sage than for my normal PCs. I run WRT54G WAPs re-flashed with DD-WRT so that I can have more granular control. On my Sage WAPs I only use MAC filtering and WEP, but on my PC WAPs I use WPA.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

If I can simply use their all-in-one canned installer CD to run everything then that is what I would use.

Then Gentoo is should be.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

I'm an AMD fan so I'll live with what it gives me. In the end, for the server, I'll likely purchase a SMP board and run 2 x64 multi-core (Opteron/Athlon - doesn't matter) CPUs. Max out the RAM and run a JBOD setup for the largest set of SATA disks the board will support.

Unless you are doing a bunch of transcoding/placeshifting, you will be fine with a single dual core Athlon. The Server process is not CPU intensive, nor is serving video to clients. It is when you transcode an MPEG2 to MPEG4 (50% Smaller), or when you are placeshifting (Essentially transcoding from MPEG2 to H264 or the like). Same with memory, you will not need a whole bunch, unless you are doing more than just sage on the server. On the Hard drive side, I recommend running a RAID setup since a failure will take down all of your TVs, plus you will lose those recordings. Granted, your expressed interest is in the timeshifting capability of live shows, so that may not be a concern.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

Initially I have a desktop sitting idle that I will test the sage setup out on first before plunking down all the cash for the fancy server and other hardware.

That is definitely prudent. My current SageTV server is exactly that.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

PCI slots are limited so if I can get 2 tuner inputs per card x4 cards then I can have 8 live channels humming at once, correct?

Then the PVR-500 is the answer. I would start with 2 cards and see how many conflicts you really have.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

[In server]
a) 1 SageTV Media Center for Linux V6.1 OEM Edition
b) 4 single/dual channel WINTV-PVR- (X?) (NTSC) or PAL/SECAM ?). I guess I would go with the cheapo 150 if they'll all need swapping out in 2009.

*** Any special video card needed or will the onboard video do ok?

I do not think the 150's are dual tuner, so you will have to go with the 500's. Again, I would start with 2. There is no special video card requirement for the server, since it will not plugged directly into a TV.

Originally Posted by pcgoober

c) 6 SageTV Wireless Media Extenders
d) 6 wireless access points (one for each extender above)
e) 4 SageTV Placeshifters (one for each laptop/PC)

You should not need a 1:1 WAP:MVP ratio. I would suggest starting with 2 WAPs with 3 MVPs on each.
Placeshifter licenses are for Concurrent access, so unless you are using all 4 at the same time, you will only need the number you intend to use at the same time.
Also note that SageTV Client != SageTV PlaceShifter. See:

Originally Posted by Opus4

What is the difference between SageTV Client and Placeshifter?

Hope that helps!
John

[ChePazzo]

Some quick things to consider:

1. Aside from the server itself, the rest of your SageTV setup can be farmed. You can have multiple recording boxes (each with multiple tuner cards), multiple viewing boxes (client or MVP or placeshifter), and multiple media storage boxes.

2. Each tuner must have a source. In the case of Analog cable, the PVR-500 can split the signal on the single coax and tune 2 channels at once. If you need to use a cablebox, I *think* you will need 1 cable box for each simultaneous channel you need. That is, if you want 3 TVs to each watch live TV using the Sage system *and* have 3 different shows record all at the same time, then you will need 6 tuners, each with a dedicated cablebox. Although, I haven't had a cablebox for more than 10 years, so maybe things have advanced since then.

3. If you need HD streamed to your TV, at the moment, there are no "extenders" to meet that need. This means that you will need to put a "client" next to your TV. A client is basically a PC (which you said you want to avoid).

4. I have seen almost no success stories surrounding streaming video over wireless (my house is wired).

PC Requirements:
Server: Ethernet
Recorder: Ethernet, Tuner(s)
Client: Ethernet, Video Output
Media Lib: Ethernet

Any of the above can be combined into the same box and any (aside from the Server) can be farmed into multiple boxes.

If you really want to build the "super system" then I would suggest farming out as much as you can to increase system availability and expandability.

Personally, I have combined Server/Recorder/MediaLib1 into a single PC (Gentoo) with 3 tuners, 1150MB of HDD for imported Video and 200MB for TV recording. P4 2.4GHz 1024MB RAM. The HDD is just for video. I have a separate MediaLib2 PC (Ubuntu) for Photos and Music (soon to be part of a RAID).

[pcgoober]

All really good stuff! I really appreciate your taking the time to answer my inquiries in detail. Hopefully I can get what I am after with having the least amount of cash going to the cable company. Just insane the prices they are charging these days for crap TV shows! This will make for a nice winter project while it is 30 below outside.

Cheers!

[wrems]

IMHO I would do some research on these forums about the tuner cards you want to use… I have a PVR500 and not sold on the overall quality it delivers. I have heard good things about these dual tuner cards: Avermedia, Nvidia (no longer available except probably used through ebay), and Vista View. Check around… I know there are a number of very happy PVR 500 owners and there are a slew of not so happy ones.

HTH

[davephan]

If you want to get a quad-core Q6600, then you may want to get one with G0 stepping, not a B3 stepping unit. The G0 draws less power, runs cooler, and can be overclocked faster. Unfortuately, New Egg will not tell you which Q6600 they send to you, until you receive it. You may need to send it back if it is a B3.

I heard of another place that sells the Q6600 G0 called Tank Guys, http://www.tankguys.com/index.php?cPath=29_181


Dave