Not a Sage user yet, wondering if a setup like I want is possible

[otakucode]

Hey everybody, I've got a friend who swears by SageTV and I am thinking of setting up a system (mutliple machines) and running SageTV on it. My current setup is just using a couple modded Xboxes running XBMC to stream content from a fileserver.

What I would like to have:
2 or 3 cable boxes hooked to a PC dedicated to the capturing, this box hidden in my server closet. Recording digital cable content in DVD quality (6mbps 720x480, preferrably MPEG-4) and recording HDTV transport streams from ATSC and QAM.
A separate box hooked to my TV that allows me to watch Live TV, either through another cable box hooked directly to it or, optimally, streamed across the network from the capture PC in the server closet, watch recorded programs streamed over the network with no transcoding involved, upsampling to 720p resolution, including DVD ISOs. Would also like this machine to be able to dump my DVD collection onto my fileserver or the recording box over the network and then stream those ISOs with menu support and such. Output from the machine hooked to my TV should be component with optical audio supporting Stereo, Dolby Digital, and DTS.
Would like to have the ability to compose DVDs of recordings on the machine hooked to the TV and burn there, pulling the content across the network, either in DVD format or, most importantly, in the format it is stored in.
Definitely need to be able to also stream the music, video, etc that I already have stored on my fileserver.
Indexing and being able to browse offline media (DVDs, or collections of MPEG-4 files on DVD) with the system asking you to insert the needed disc if you attempt to play.

How much of this does SageTV support? I've read a bit about the network encoding servers and such and it sounds like I might be able to do most of it, but haven't really found any place that describes the kinds of setups possible in detail.

Thanks for any information!
OtakuCODE

[paulbeers]

First off, as far as I know Sage can do all of this, with the exception of recording from within the Sage software. That would require additional software. Here is what I know. Some may have to add more to things I don't currently do.

1. Of course sage can sit in a closet with 2-3 boxes hooked to it. That is how everyone does it with DTV and Dish Network. You will need a USB-UIRT if you are using digital cable boxes (unless they can be controlled via a serial connection).
2. Of course you can stream live tv. What would be the point if it couldn't? Just a simple recorder? That's no fun! No box needed next to the tv.
3. Upsampling will actually be a function of your Sage Client hooked to the tv. Your tv out cards (using either component or dvi/hdmi) will actually do the upsampling (not so much Sage). Obviously your tv encoder cards will only record at 640x480 but your video card will take care of the rest. I recommend a 6600 or better if going nvidia
4. While I don't currently have my DVD collection on my servers (I only have 400GB of space in my Sage Server), I know this is working. Many are doing it. In fact in the new Beta versions, they have DVD playing over the MediaMVP's even.
5. Streaming audio/pictures/videos is possible. In sage 1.0-5.04, the audio searching isn't necessarily the best, however, I understand that 6.0 Beta is much improved (I haven't tried it yet).
6. DVD recording - You could do it on the client I would imagine, but wouldn't be thru sage. Personally I wouldn't recommend doing it from the client hooked to the tv regardless if it was an option or not. Why? I would be worried about buffer underruns due to a network drop out/slow down. Just my thoughts anyway!
7. Inserting Disk - I haven't tried this either. Someone else will have to advise if this works or if it is ever been tried.

[SHS]

upsampling to 720p resolution

Upsampling and downsampling resolution is done by video card it self but if want ture 720p resolution video file you have no chosse but to transcoding 720x480i in 1280x720p

dump my DVD collection

This can be done but can not be done with in SageTV and don't think any one has created Custom STV plugin for this..

compose DVDs

Should work but I'm sure if the plugin also work in SageTV Client I don't do mine that way I always copy the file from the server and make my own menu (Ulead DVD MovieFactory) and edit the the clip to remove the ad's(Womble MPEG-VCR)
paulbeers being up a good point at buffer underruns due to a network drop out/slow down.

Indexing and being able to browse offline media (DVDs, or collections of MPEG-4 files on DVD) with the system asking you to insert the needed disc if you attempt to play.

This I'm not sure about try ask in SageTV Customizations

[otakucode]

Thanks for the info, guys! I'm not very worried about network issues causing problems with DVD burning... I burn all my DVDs over my gigabit network as it and I have absolutely no problem. I usually burn at 8x if I am simultaneously doing something like watching a streamed DVD (since now I burn at my main PC). My main desire to do it from there is just because I am a bit of a digital packrat, I don't like to delete anything. You never know when you might want to pull out that old show that got cancelled after one season and give it another watch (altho since I buy the DVDs of most shows I like for the extra features and improved quality).

One thing I saw mentioned in the FAQ, but didn't find a good explanation of is Sage's "Archived" content feature... what is that? It sounded like Sage could still have information about content you moved offline. Also, does Sage treat content recorded directly in Sage much differently than content just hosted on a Samba share? Can it still keep track of whether things have been watched, save bookmarks, etc? I run Democracy Player on a server and have it dump its downloads onto my fileserver and watch a great deal of content that way. XBMC doesn't do things like keep track of what you have watched or anything, but it will at least keep bookmarks. Even if Sage just let me move the stuff I have watched into some other directory, that would be fantastic and make burning it much easier.

Hardware-wise, what types of MPEG-4 encoding cards are supported? And you mention the resizing would be done by the video card... I have an ATi Radeon 9800 Pro card that I was planning on using (got it for free and they can be modified to run with passive cooling) on the playing box, is the upscaling configurable? Like can I tell it to do precise bicubic resizing or am I just stuck with whatever algorithm it uses? My HDTV is 3+ years old, so it lacks in several areas, and its scaling is one of them, so I was hoping to be able to compensate with Sage or the video card.

Do the Sage extenders like the MediaMVP support full HD transport streams? The main reason I want to upgrade from my current setup with XBMC is because it simply doesn't have the processing power to handle the high data load of TS streams.

Thanks again for the info, I definitely think I will be getting into Sage soon. MythTV has some features I want, but I really don't want all the hassle it appears to be.

OtakuCODE

[PGPfan]

You can set up SageMC (the custom STV that mimicks Media Center from Microsoft) to do the "offline" DVD thing. Overall, I can't see anything from your list that Sage can't do. It will take a little work to set it all up as you have a healthy list of requirements, but that is all part of the fun!

-PGPfan

[otakucode]

Heh, I agree, I love playing with this stuff, just wanted to make sure I could eventually get to where I want to be. I will start off slowly and keep expanding. My main concerns are HDTV recording and some other things I have a feeling I'll just have to do without. Can you even watch On Demand content through Sage? I'm fairly certain you can't record it, but is there passthrough?

Also, any recommendations on cards that capture in an MPEG-4 format? (Divx, Xvid, MP4, any flavor is fine really)

Thanks,
OtakuCODE

[lobosrul]

Otak, you can capture anything from a cable box thru s-video.

Most boxes should have a firewire connection. I (and many other users) use this for HDTV playback/recording, and other digital channels However, the cable co's are only required to have this port activated for local OTA channels (ie ABC, NBC, CBS). Comcast, in my location, only encrypts a few channels (HBO for instance), but I've heard that some people have everything in the clear, while others have almost nothing.

I dont know of any consumer level MPEG-4 hardware cards. I think I saw a used box that did something liek that on EBAY, but it was well over $1000.

[SHS]

Sage's "Archived" content feature see screenshot

Hardware-wise, what types of MPEG-4 encoding cards are supported

Only this one Plextor ConvertX TV-402U or ConvertX M-402U

MediaMVP support full HD

No nor dose it support DivX/XviD hardware decoding it only dose MPEG1/2 decoding in Hardware.

[lobosrul]

Only this one Plextor ConvertX TV-402U or ConvertX M-402U

Does that work with Sage? Add in 480p component input and thats a really sweet device.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by SHS

Only this one Plextor ConvertX TV-402U or ConvertX M-402U

But from everything I've read, those aren't very impressive, you're better off recording to high-bitrate MPEG-2 and transcoding to H.264 or something.

[lobosrul]

Ah thats a shame Stanger. I've actualy found I get better quality encodes with h.263 2-pass than h.264 single pass. And h.264 2-pass takes too damn long.

[stanger89]

Well, H.264 was just an example, basic idea is the quality of encoders in the Plextor, combined with the amount of memory and realtime constraints, ends up with them not being able to come close to matching the bitrate-to-quality ratio most people expect of MPEG-4.

IIRC, I think the general comment was they'd create MPEG-4 recordings at 50% or greater vs MPEG-2, that means 2-4Mbps.

You can get good results with H.264 (eg Nero Recode) at under 1Mbps.

My basic point was that most people expect MPEG-4 to mean the kind of quality/bitrate you get for offline converted DVD rips, ie close to DVD quality at bitrates under 1Mbps. The Plextor's just can't do that.

[SHS]

There are some Realtime H.264 hardware acceleration encoder and transcoders but they cost a lot of $$$$$.
The run of mill chip don't even make use of all advanced features find in MPEG-4, DivX, XviD and etc like High Profile , High Definition.
stanger89 I know it not the hottest thing in world but it is only low cost one there is.

[otakucode]

Ahh, thanks for the information about that Plextor card, I was looking into it. I'm not really interested in transcoding the MPEG-2, one level of lossy encoding is quite enough for me. Good thing big hard drives are pretty cheap

Hopefully someone will develop an affordable chipset for realtime H.264 encoding before too long and we'll see some cards with it that aren't too much.

[korben_dallas]

Originally Posted by otakucode

Ahh, thanks for the information about that Plextor card, I was looking into it. I'm not really interested in transcoding the MPEG-2, one level of lossy encoding is quite enough for me. Good thing big hard drives are pretty cheap

Hopefully someone will develop an affordable chipset for realtime H.264 encoding before too long and we'll see some cards with it that aren't too much.

The ConvertX is fairly trouble-free with MPEG-2, but way too many issues (at least in SageTV) with DivX/MPEG-4/H.264 recordings. Since 3rd party apps and upcoming SageTV V6 can do transcoding within SageTV, it is not a very attractive capture device.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by SHS

stanger89 I know it not the hottest thing in world but it is only low cost one there is.

True, just suggesting the possibility that in light of it's limitations, that...

a) It's not such a big advantage as is normally associated with "MPEG-4"
b) Recording to MPEG-2 with a newer/better card (eg the ViXS ones) and transcoding may be a better option.