Do you want to record analog HD with no DRM? Look here...

[mikesm]

Take a look at this item:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/21/f...-a-worlds-fir/

I've mentioned the previous version of this part before, but now the full 1920x1080 h.264 encoder has arrived. It works well based on what I saw at CES. It will allow you to encode in high quality and realtime a full 1080i or 720p HD video source from component inputs. It is the first chip of it's kind to do this.

While it's designed to support moving analog HD around via a wireless network using a companion decoder, using the single encoder chip and making it look like a normal encoder to Sage would be quite powerful.

So, if you want this, ask Sage to ask Hauppauge to make a tuner with it. If they don't want to, I bet Sage could get an Asian ODM to make a card, and could sell it for Sage customers. Wouldn't that be a differentiator, being able to record analog HD from a DBS or Cable STB in the clear?

Folks, if you want it, speak up and tell folks to build a card with this chip in it!

Thanks,
Mike

[HawgGuy]

What about this for HDMI capture:

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

At $249 I'd be willing to spring for that. Windows & Mac OS X compatible PCI-E.

[mattdcknsn]

Originally Posted by HawgGuy

What about this for HDMI capture:

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

At $249 I'd be willing to spring for that. Windows & Mac OS X compatible PCI-E.

This wont record HDMI sources with copy protection set.

From the blackmagic site:
The HDMI standard sometimes includes copy protection encryption, such as commonly found on DVD players and some brands of set top boxes. When connected to these copy protected sources, the HDMI specification defines that Intensity cards cannot capture. Always confirm copyright ownership before capture or distribution of content. Intensity media file formats are fully compatible with DeckLink and Multibridge capture cards. Compatible with Microsoft Windows™ and Apple Intel based Mac Pro systems. Apple Power PC systems are not yet supported.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mikesm

Take a look at this item:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/21/f...-a-worlds-fir/

I've mentioned the previous version of this part before, but now the full 1920x1080 h.264 encoder has arrived. It works well based on what I saw at CES. It will allow you to encode in high quality and realtime a full 1080i or 720p HD video source from component inputs. It is the first chip of it's kind to do this.

Unfortunately, it appears we're just as close to a capture card as we were then.

Originally Posted by HawgGuy

What about this for HDMI capture:

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

At $249 I'd be willing to spring for that. Windows & Mac OS X compatible PCI-E.

In addition to being HDCP-less (and thus somewhat crippled), there's no hardware compression so the system requirements are astronomical.

[mikesm]

My point is, the hardware is here now. Back in January, the part then only did 1440 wide...

Thanks,
Mike

[stanger89]

True, but 1440x1080 would be plenty for analog HDTV capture as most broadcast HD is compressed so that that's all that's left (if that).

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by stanger89

True, but 1440x1080 would be plenty for analog HDTV capture as most broadcast HD is compressed so that that's all that's left (if that).

Broadcast HD isn't this issue as much a premium HD content that's encrypted on the wire...

Thanks,
Mike

[stanger89]

Well by broadcast I was trying to distinguish between HD that's transmitted vs stuff like HD DVD/BD. HD DVD and BD are really the only formats that have a hope of utilizing the full 1920/1080. Most "broadcast" (cable/sat especially) is either 1280x1080, 1440x1080 to start with, or compressed so much that it might as well be.

[lobosrul]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Well by broadcast I was trying to distinguish between HD that's transmitted vs stuff like HD DVD/BD. HD DVD and BD are really the only formats that have a hope of utilizing the full 1920/1080. Most "broadcast" (cable/sat especially) is either 1280x1080, 1440x1080 to start with, or compressed so much that it might as well be.

I've never seen any broadcast TV (OTA) at any format except 1920x1080 or 1280x720 (and 480 line of course).

Now whether its downres'd before broadcast, I dont know. And of course they might not be broadcasting with enough bandwidth.

If this chip encoded at 720p30 or 720p24 I'd be perfectly happy with that.

I have a feeling we'll never see the kind of device that will take component input and create a nice encoded h.264 file. The MPAA will have a cow. I guess it might be made overseas and we might see some imports.

[jmiddleton]

This is the "analog hole" content owners are so concerned about. Rest assured they will do everything in their power to prevent analog HD capture cards from coming to market. If they fail, the HDCP spec has a provision to reduce the resolution to 480P for a component connection. No one is enforcing that capability now but you can expect that to change if component capture cards come to market.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by jmiddleton

This is the "analog hole" content owners are so concerned about. Rest assured they will do everything in their power to prevent analog HD capture cards from coming to market. If they fail, the HDCP spec has a provision to reduce the resolution to 480P for a component connection. No one is enforcing that capability now but you can expect that to change if component capture cards come to market.

If they do, a LOT of people will HOWL about it. There are still a ton of HDTV's out there which ared connected only by component. Screwing them will be a VERY unpleasant thing.

Thanks,
Mike

[lobosrul]

I wonder how easy it would be for the providers to restrict component output on current boxes. I bet some cable-co's could simply send a signal to all their leased boxes out there, and it would be done. That probably cant be done with sat.

[opy01]

For those looking to capture HDMI at 1080i this may work. One of my co-workers is going to try to capture HD from his PS3 DVD player to the Blackmagic card using an analog component to HDMI converter. This is what he is going to try to use http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=4173. If it work then I am definately investing the $600 for both devices to get HD into my PC. Does anyone know if the Blackmagic will work with SageTV?

[lobosrul]

Originally Posted by opy01

For those looking to capture HDMI at 1080i this may work. One of my co-workers is going to try to capture HD from his PS3 DVD player to the Blackmagic card using an analog component to HDMI converter. This is what he is going to try to use http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=4173. If it work then I am definately investing the $600 for both devices to get HD into my PC. Does anyone know if the Blackmagic will work with SageTV?

If he hasn't bought all that yet, STOP HIM NOW. First off Blackmagic now makes a card that will do component in, so theres no need for a converter.

Secondly, I hope he realizes this thing is taking a raw vid stream in. You'll fill up an entire 500 GB drive in a couple of hours! It will however do real-time encoding to J-MPEG with a reasonably fast machine, but that will still be something like 10 times bigger than your average HD MPEG-2 TS.

[opy01]

We were not sure if it actually has the RGB or the Y/Pb/Pr conectors on the dongle since we never saw the dongle itself. I even looked on their site and there is no manual for it online. I guess I will have him call them and see how they connect. Do you know if Sage supports the Intensity Pro?

Edit: Talked to a sales rep for Blackmagic and he said the intensity pro should work fine. Since it is capturing through the analog component instead of digital but still at 1080i are the file sizes going to be too huge before compression?

[lobosrul]

Originally Posted by opy01

We were not sure if it actually has the RGB or the Y/Pb/Pr conectors on the dongle since we never saw the dongle itself. I even looked on their site and there is no manual for it online. I guess I will have him call them and see how they connect.

If your buying the $349 Pro version then component is included and you have no need for a converter.

Originally Posted by opy01

Do you know if Sage supports the Intensity Pro?

I'm curious to know that myself. If it can be used as a windows capture device then yes Sage will have access to the stream. The problem will be whether sage can playback the stream or not. Since this device can do realtime lossless encoding into JPEG AVI, sage needs to be able to play that back. This means you might need to find the appropriate dshow filter.

Originally Posted by opy01

Since it is capturing through the analog component instead of digital but still at 1080i are the file sizes going to be too huge before compression?

Yes. But according to their own website their JPEG AVI compression for 1080i is 12MB a sec. Thats about 42GB for an hour long show. That would work for the occasional capture but not for PVR usage (unless your have a BIG raid array). By way of comparison a 1 hour mpeg-2 TS from an ATSC HD channel is never bigger than 8GB.


On Windows, Blackmagic's full resolution (1920 x 1080) professional quality compressed HD codec can capture JPEG AVI files in real time using Premiere Pro. Unlike HDV and DVCPRO HD which uses reduced resolution 1440 x 1080 video, Blackmagic's Online JPEG maintains the full resolution 1920 x 1080 resolution of HD video without the huge file size of uncompressed HD video. Blackmagic's Online JPEG is so efficient that full motion 1080i HD video can be recorded at only 12 MB per second vs. a massive 119 MB per second for uncompressed HD video.

Edit: Maybe it can downconvert to 720p @ 6 MB/sec. Thats would make one cheap 500GB able to hold roughly 23 hours of video.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by lobosrul

I'm curious to know that myself. If it can be used as a windows capture device then yes Sage will have access to the stream. The problem will be whether sage can playback the stream or not. Since this device can do realtime lossless encoding into JPEG AVI, sage needs to be able to play that back. This means you might need to find the appropriate dshow filter.

The other, bigger question is, can Sage record in Motion-JPEG? Blackmagic specifically says with Premiere Pro for recording with MJPEG.

It's quite likely that if Sage were to see the Intensity, it would attempt to record in MPEG (as Sage uses MPEG for software encoders), this would lead to two potential problems, either Sage/Intensity/Encoder would downconvert to SD, or the act of attempting to record HD to MPEG in realtime would crush the PC.

[lobosrul]

Originally Posted by stanger89

The other, bigger question is, can Sage record in Motion-JPEG? Blackmagic specifically says with Premiere Pro for recording with MJPEG.

It's quite likely that if Sage were to see the Intensity, it would attempt to record in MPEG (as Sage uses MPEG for software encoders), this would lead to two potential problems, either Sage/Intensity/Encoder would downconvert to SD, or the act of attempting to record HD to MPEG in realtime would crush the PC.

It would depend on how the graph is setup, and if sage would actually use that graph. And more importantly if Premiere Pro uses an unlocked dshow filter, or if you can find a suitable alternative.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by lobosrul

Yes. But according to their own website their JPEG AVI compression for 1080i is 12MB a sec. Thats about 42GB for an hour long show. That would work for the occasional capture but not for PVR usage (unless your have a BIG raid array). By way of comparison a 1 hour mpeg-2 TS from an ATSC HD channel is never bigger than 8GB.

File size is not the only consideration. Disk bandwidth and latency will also come into play. At typical MPEG2 HD data rates, a 64K cluster is good for about 30 msec of playback, or about three or four seek times. At Blackmagic data rates, it's good for only 5 msec of playback -- about half a seek time. So if the file becomes significantly fragmented, or there's more than one file being read or written at the same time, the disk will be hard pressed to keep up and you're going to get playback stutter and/or damaged recordings.

Another way to look at it is that one Blackmagic stream puts the same load on your disk subsystem as six or seven normal HD streams, or about 20 SD streams. For simultaneous recording and playback of multiple streams, 12 MB/sec is not going to cut it, no matter how big your disk is.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by lobosrul

It would depend on how the graph is setup, and if sage would actually use that graph. And more importantly if Premiere Pro uses an unlocked dshow filter, or if you can find a suitable alternative.

Sage builds it's own recording graph, AFAIK you can't tell it what codec to use.