Sage2 vs MythTV

[mikesm]

Hi, I am seriously thinking about moving off the Sage TV platform to the MythTV platform for HTPC functions. I was wondering if folks here could comment on Sage 2's capabilities vs. what some of what MythTV provides...

The MythTV system allows different PC's running the package to have a common database of media, whether it's MPEG encoded TV, ripped DVD's, Music, Pictures, etc... Will Sage 2 be able to have such a common database between systems?

MythTV has a very well integrated DVD ripping capability, as well as DVD playback from media in a DVD drive. It's indexed and archived in the media database and is really nicely done, with options to select quality levels etc... Will Sage 2 have this capability?

A WAP version of the remote web interface to allow remote control of recording selections via PDA's and cell phones? This seems very neat indeed when you forget to select a recording.

Ability to control an LCD display so the front panel of the HTPC can display info about the content being displayed.

PS Is there a datasheet for Sage2 that outlines all the new features of the product? I feel silly asking questions like this but I can't seem to find the answers in the groups...

Thanks,
Mike

[ToxMox]

The MythTV system allows different PC's running the package to have a common database of media, whether it's MPEG encoded TV, ripped DVD's, Music, Pictures, etc... Will Sage 2 be able to have such a common database between systems?

The current version of SageTV already does this by using the Sage client.

[malore]

Information about version 2.0 and the SageTV Studio is provided here. There also is an interview at HTPC news.

[Beelzebub]

MythTV is ahead of SageTV in alot of ways.
Picture in Picture
Support for Hardware Decoding
Commercial Detection/Skipping
Mpeg Editor
Webserver for remote scheduling. One thing I really miss from my Tivo.
Media ripping software
Fully customizable Interface
Module Based Software design. So updates/Addons will be easy to create.
Runs under Linux.

Its only downfall is, its only ment for advanced users. It would be cool if someone could make a build of Linux a HTPPC. It would kill Windows MCE thats for sure.

I really can't speak for SageTV 2.0, I know it will at least have the New Interface and Gui support for the pvr-350.

The best thing to do is try both of them. I'm sure both have their Pro's and Con's. Just don't waste your time with Snapstream or Showshifter both are crap.

[mikejaner]

Uhhh.... SageTv supports Hardware Decoding

mikejaner

[mikesm]

Information about version 2.0 and the SageTV Studio is provided here. There also is an interview at HTPC news.

Thanks for the pointers, but I haven't seen details about integrated functionality other than the GUI. For example, will Sage 2 have integrated DVD ripping? What about commercial skipping or integrated editting to excise commercials? I know I should be able to integrate other apps to do this under the customized GUI, but I'm curious about what Sage is going to support "out of the box".

I know HD support depends on getting a card that has good windows support. We really don't have one yet. The pcHDTV card that Myth supports is close, but it has no windows drivers. The Fusion III may be the card to get in the future, if it ever ships, and would have HD QAM support that the pcHDTV card doesn't.

What about networking between Sage HTPC's? Where one Sage instance can access another Sage instance's media in an integrated catalog? This isn't that big a deal since Sage supports multiple tuners, but there are some interesting possibilities that are created by enabling these devices to be tied together with an integrated media database, particularly if a lot of clients can be served by them. (I am thinking about a possible hospitality application)...

Thanks,
Mike

[mlbdude]

What about networking between Sage HTPC's? Where one Sage instance can access another Sage instance's media in an integrated catalog?

You can pretty much do that now.

I doubt seriously if Frey will ever include DVD ripping in their app due to legal reasons. Same could have been said about commercial skip but since SS is doing something similar I would not be surprised to see that.

[mikesm]

Originally posted by mlbdude
You can pretty much do that now.

I doubt seriously if Frey will ever include DVD ripping in their app due to legal reasons. Same could have been said about commercial skip but since SS is doing something similar I would not be surprised to see that.

People tried to make the same logic about commercial skip, but that has been around since the days of the VCR. It just can be done a lot better with digital media.

There are a number of packages out there that do DVD extraction and even copying that are sold at retail. I am unaware of any of them being sued. Sure, MPAA and others will bluster a lot, but in the end they'll only sue if they think they have a reasonable chance of winning, and the DVD extraction/copying utilities wouldn't be able to survive the legal onslaught of the media companies if they wern't on the right side of the line.

But right now I'm just trying to understand what Sage 2 will be able to do out of the box or not. If the answer is yes great, and if it's no but there is a simple way to enable it, that's also OK. But I can't find the answer in the different messages about what its supposed to do.

Also, on the Myth comparison front, I found this quote about Myth's scheduling abilities:

"I currently use a PVR-350 in a 2.4GHz P4 box. For the most part things work great. And the scheduling is rather intelligent - MythTV it won't record a program if you already have it, and it can sometimes even resolve schduling conflicts on its own (i.e. if program A and program B are on at the same time C, and you've set both to record, but program A is on later at time D, MythTV will record program B at time C and program A at time D without
intervention)."

Can Sage 2 do this? My Replay doesn't come close to this sort of capability!

Thanks
Mike

[Opus4]

Originally posted by mikesm
"I currently use a PVR-350 in a 2.4GHz P4 box. For the most part things work great. And the scheduling is rather intelligent - MythTV it won't record a program if you already have it, and it can sometimes even resolve schduling conflicts on its own (i.e. if program A and program B are on at the same time C, and you've set both to record, but program A is on later at time D, MythTV will record program B at time C and program A at time D without
intervention)."

Can Sage 2 do this?

Um... unless I'm not reading that description correctly, I'm sure Sage 2 will retain the functionality that is already in Sage 1.

- Andy

[Beelzebub]

Originally posted by mikesm

Also, on the Myth comparison front, I found this quote about Myth's scheduling abilities:

"I currently use a PVR-350 in a 2.4GHz P4 box. For the most part things work great. And the scheduling is rather intelligent - MythTV it won't record a program if you already have it, and it can sometimes even resolve schduling conflicts on its own (i.e. if program A and program B are on at the same time C, and you've set both to record, but program A is on later at time D, MythTV will record program B at time C and program A at time D without
intervention)."

Can Sage 2 do this? My Replay doesn't come close to this sort of capability!

Thanks
Mike

SageTV already does that, and much more. It builds profiles from what you watch and records related shows. Just like the Tivo's Thumbs up/down but much better.

[mlbdude]

BTW products like DVDXCopy and sucks have been sued and settled. They just make enough enough money to pay the lawsuits and keep going. At least until the big one comes.

There are lots of features of MythTV that Sage can incorporate, but there are some that they can't since they actually sell their product.

[malore]

From: News.com

Hollywood studios Paramount Pictures and 20th Century Fox sued a handful of small software companies Wednesday, alleging that their distribution of DVD-copying software violates copyright law.

The studios filed suit against Tritton Technologies, QOJ, World Reach and Proto Ventures in New York federal court, asking for unspecified damages and a court-ordered halt to the distribution of the various software packages.

Lets not forget about ReplayTV
ReplayTV said Tuesday that its new digital video recording boxes won't include some of the features that have angered copyright holders.

ReplayTV has come under fire from major TV networks and movie studios for offering the features, which let consumers play back TV shows without commercials or send the shows to others.

[mikejaner]

Replay TV did just impliment a new feature called chapter skip, or something like that, to replace the commercial skip feature they took out last year. This is a smart way for them to give their customers the commercial skip without getting sued because Chapter skipping sections off the scene changes during the whole show, not just the commercials. It just happens that commercials are scene changes.
mikejaner

[mikesm]

Wow, I just saw the announcement of the new lawsuits, but was unaware of previous suits. I have never ripped a DVD I didn't own, so it's interesting to see how much effort is being made to prevent this technolgy from being distributed, even though the crooks will easily find ways around it, and consumers who want convienence will be the only ones encumbered. Sigh...

Thanks everyone for setting me straight on the legal background. I do appreciate it.

In any case, I am just trying to find out what Sage 2 will do out of the box...

Thanks,
Mike

[mikejaner]

hehe, anything it can legally.

mikejaner

[valnar]

Commercial skip would be nice, but there is no reason to have Sage include DVD ripping. Is there anything better than DVD Decrypter? No, so why reinvent the wheel. I don't want features I have with other applications.

If you run Windows and truly want transparency in your DVD's with *all* protection off, get a little app called AnyDVD from Slysoft.

Adding features that pertain to the product's core application is what is most important. Before integrating DVD ripping or beefing up the MP3 playing, I'd prefer to see closed captioning and a web-based guide.

-Robert

[mikesm]

Adding features that pertain to the product's core application is what is most important. Before integrating DVD ripping or beefing up the MP3 playing, I'd prefer to see closed captioning and a web-based guide.

Well, that depends on what you think the product is supposed to be. If you think the product is a Tivo replacement, then you are absolutely right. If you think the product is supposed to be a media server that enables digital distribution of all kinds of media digitally within the home, then mp3 and DVD ripping are essential to the purpose of the product.

I already have a ReplayTV. What I want is a media center that does SD/HD PVR, and serves as a repository for all the media in the home that can be accessed by a varity of clients, all with digital fidelty. I hope that's what Sage2 is going to be. Just a PVR isn't worth leaving TiVo and Replay...

Thanks,
Mike

[jmeeks]

Mike, I don't agree.

SageTV is a PVR that has distribution capabilities that exceed what you'll ever be able to get from ReplayTV or TiVo. Incorporating HD capabilities and client integration with devices like MediaMVP, needs to be the focus. DVD ripping, etc, are better done with other products and if Frey wants to put together an integrated solution of a media center with all the various products, then shouldn't that be a separate product?

I think HD is coming up short right now, not because of Frey and their ability, but qutie frankly the existing available hardware to support HD seems to be quite lacking. However the MediaMVP looks very promising and if and when Frey is able to work with Hauppauge and integrate the client functionality through the MediaMVP that will be terrific.

SageTV2.0 seems to be going in a direction to satify customers needs to personalize their own interface to their liking while developing out of the box a lot of features in functionality that Frey's customers have been requesting.

We as customers, in my opinion, need to allow Frey to keep their eye on the ball, and if we want other thinkgs like DVD ripping, etc., we should request other products in my opinion.

I personally think SageTV right now gives me more than I can ever expect from ReplayTV or TiVo.

[falchulk]

mikesm, I agree with you that what you want is the goal of most people. What I don't agree with is that side functions like DVD ripping hould be done by sagetv. It's impossible for 1 programmer to have the in depth knowledge in these varying subject matters to do a good hob. I rip DVD's and compress them using divx. Each one takes me 15 minutes to rip and compress to 500 megs. I use 2 freeware utilities without any difficulty at all. Sage 2.0 seems to be positioning itself as a complete front end. If it has this functionality , you could launch these apps from sage. I really would not want to run them on my sage box as ripping and encoding is processor/disk intensive.

[mikesm]

Wow, lots of comments... First off, as I have said before, I am primarily trying to understand what Sage 2 will support out of the box from a functionality perspective. If DVD ripping and such aren't supported, but the hooks exist to interface my own software, then that's not quite as good, but still a great product. I guess we'll have to wait for the beta to see what the details will be like. The Frey team is quite good and builds great code. I am just trying to determine what targets they intend to bomb, so to speak. :-)

falchuk, you bring up an point that does touch on why I think the target product conecpt is so important. It looks like you rip DVD's and transcode them to MPEG-4 for archiving. Myth does something similar as a option. But it seems that the Sage products are really architected around MPEG-2, or rather not doing a lot of transcoding, which makes sense for a lot of reasons. But if you want to have Sage be the core of a media center, you want to make sure the video player that's integrated in the clients can handle formats like MPEG-4, in addition to MPEG-2, because formats and devices change over time. You want to have the flexibility to incorporate new media types into the library.

On the other hand, this makes clients a lot more complicated. While a PC or Xbox can display MPEG-4, MediaMVPs and such can't. One of the functions of a backend would be to manage transcoding issues for the user, so that processes to do this could be kicked off automatically. Of course, I am sure you could use add-on's to do this within a framework, but the question is whether the core architecture supports managing these issues. So for example, if disk space becomes an issue, could you take archived TV shows that you encoded from Cable (so quality isn't really an issue), and transcode them to a more compact format for archiving. Is media archiving part of the product design? If I burn bunch of old episodes of dragnet to a DVD for archiving, are they still part of the media catalog? When I load that DVD onto the backend, will they be automatically incorporated into the media guide that the clients display? That's what I mean by archive management...

For playback, managing these functions in the framework of diverse clients becomes even more important. Transcoding from MPEG-4 to MPEG-2 isn't that CPU intensive, though I am unsure you could do it in real time. Certainly the reverse direction is impractical with today's CPU capabilities, at least on one machine. But if you could, wouldn't that be cool to support display of MPEG-4 on MPEG-2 only devices. Backends for set top devices have to deal with this sort of issue all the time, because the hardware guys try and keep the hardware spec as clean as possible for ease of testing and such, but the diversity of formats argues against this approach. Trascoding, sometimes on the fly is how many of these issues are dealt with.

Format transcoding isn't just an issue for video, it's an issue for audio and pictures too. I may have devices that only support MP3, for playback, but maybe I want to archive radio programs (my wife loves Dr. Laura for example) from the Internet and convert them to MP3 format so they play on my Rio when we are going on a long trip (nothing like fast forward to cut through radio commercials!). BTW, ReplayRadio is a cool utility for doing things like this, though it's implemented as a bit of hack.

Another point is whether or not multiple backends can have tasks shuttled around on them for more optimum processing. For example, shuffling off a heavy duty transcoding job to my desktop at night when I'm asleep is really pretty practical now with high speed home networks and networked file systems. Sage already does this with tuners, but all kinds of resources could be mapped into this model as well.

I'm not bringing up these items as a wish list as much as trying to give an idea of why I think architecture is important, and why knowing what product you are ultimately trying to build is important. It goes well beyond a decision to include DVD ripping because you don't want to get sued. Even if you don't provide the functionality for a specific function, making sure that function is architectured for so the downsteam implications on clients, formats, media management etc... are already taken into account is important.

Thanks,
Mike