Important Version 6 Upgrade Information

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by mikesusangray

Just curious, since I reformat and reinstall Windows every year or so:

Do I have to reinstall 2.x, then reinstall 6.x? Or will the key work directly?

Just keep your old & new keys; you don't need to install the old version first. Another discussion of that is here.

- Andy

[bfhoothead]

I bought my version 4 license about 3 days before version 5 was released. That's just about six months ago now. I was a little upset when version 5 was released, but obviously very pleased to find out that I could get a free upgrade. I figured I had probably a year, maybe a little more, on my license with full support and all upgrades included. Now, I'm obviously very unhappy to find out that within six months I'm going to have to pay for an upgrade. I'd been trying to figure out why there had been no patches to version 5 for quite some time and now I have my answer. So, as I see it, after about six months I now have a completely unsupported product. I'm not sure that's a good business practice. I'd be happy to exchange my version 4 for a version 5 key and then have to buy an upgrade in six months when version 7 comes out. But, having to buy one now is just rediculous. SageTV makes the best DVR software, period, and I'm happy to support the company. But, dealing with this kind of nonsense puts me off quite a bit.

[bfhoothead]

I've spent some time reading through a good portion of this thread now, and I see several others that are also a little upset at having bought a license for version 4 about 6 months ago that can no longer be used for upgrades. I also went back and checked the release date for version 5. I bought a license for version 4 exactly 1 day before version 5 was released. I *obviously* had no idea a new version was going to be released or I would have waited. While I firmly believe that software companies are entitled to being paid for their work (I happen to be a SW engineer so I *really* get this), having to upgrade so soon seems a little unfair. To solve this problem, how about simply allowing both version 4 and version 5 users to upgrade for free?

[chadman]

One thing people have to remember is that version 6.0 is not even out. It is still in beta, and for me it is to buggy to use at this time. I know a lot of companies start working on ver 2.0 the day after 1.0 is released and sometimes before. This never has bothered me as long as the bugs are worked out of the original version. I do find it strange that companies now charge for beta products. Jrivers was the first company I saw do this and now I have seen it a few times with other companies. I feel the beta should be free to test and then offer the product for a fair price when it is stable and ready. Charging people to use an unstable product, having them test your software, send in bug reports, and help them troubleshoot problems is capitalism at its finest! Please note I did pay for the upgrade, so I guess the business model works! Even while I do not think charging for beta products is such a great idea, I know that Sage has been a great product for me and I would have purchased it once it was released.

[bfhoothead]

Everything you said makes sense and is reasonable. However, I'd be surprised if it was more than a few weeks before the final 6.0 is released. At that point, what I said is still valid in that I'm forced to pay for an upgrade in order to get bug fixes within 6 months of having bought the product. That, quite simply, isn't reasonable.

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by bfhoothead

I now have a completely unsupported product.

As far as I'm aware, Sage have not specified desupport dates for any of their products or versions.

[nielm]

Originally Posted by chadman

I do find it strange that companies now charge for beta products.

So do I, but then there are other considerations: such as stopping people from being able to run the free beta forever. Yes there are of course workarounds such as expiry dates, but they have to be possible with the licencing architecture that Sage use...

Also most people who will actively test the beta will go on to install the released version (so they will have to pay for it anyway)

Bear in mind that this beta is 'free' for 15 days, and that in the past once a release is, well, finally released, the trial period is reset to allow a new 15 day trial.

[spike5884]

Originally Posted by chadman

I do find it strange that companies now charge for beta products. Jrivers was the first company I saw do this and now I have seen it a few times with other companies. I feel the beta should be free to test and then offer the product for a fair price when it is stable and ready. Charging people to use an unstable product, having them test your software, send in bug reports, and help them troubleshoot problems is capitalism at its finest!

First. This is a comment for across the board. Not just in response to what Chadmad has said.

At first I too kind of thought this, but then I thought about it a little more and compared it to some other software I use. No one said you HAD to pay for the beta. It can be installed and tested for 15 or 30 days (don't remember which). Just like any other version of the software. What SageTV is offering is the option to pay for the upgrade at a reduce cost now. I am guessing that when 6.0 is finally released the cost of the upgrade will go back to the "normal" price. In a way, SageTV is giving a deal to have consumers test the software. Since this IS beta software, you should not be installing it on your production box. If you don't like 6.0, don't upgrade. Simple.

One thing SageTV should look into is the timeout period on beta software. One piece of software I am familiar with has a 15 day cycle for its betas. What that means is that you can expect a new beta version every 15 days. You just install the new beta version over the current and you have another 15 days to test. It also shows that the company is actively making progress on the beta because they have to.

Keep up the GREAT work SageTV.

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by nielm

there are other considerations: such as stopping people from being able to run the free beta forever.

And it's often the free betas that are cracked...

[bfhoothead]

Originally Posted by rickgillyon

As far as I'm aware, Sage have not specified desupport dates for any of their products or versions.

Okay, now that I've had a chance to think about this some more, here's the real problem as I see it. For most software a major version will be around for maybe 12-18 months. During that time there'll be bug fixes and minor upgrades to that release. As an example of an upgrade for Placeshifter I might expect to see an option to automatically reconnect to a server or adding username and password options to the command line, as were mentioned as being on the to-do list for 5.1 in this post: http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18164 . As another example from the competition, BeyondTV 4.0 was released last November and they're now on version 4.4, with exactly the kind of updates I'm talking about included in each point release. There'll probably be a 5.0 of BeyondTV in the next few months with a $29.99 - $39.99 upgrade cost. That seems reasonable to me.

Now, the problem with the way SageTV is doing this is that they're putting out a new major release within 6 months and no longer making any point releases to the previous release. Meaning that after 6 months I can no longer expect to get any bug fixes or minor upgrades to my software. That's what I mean by "unsupported". If I'd bought my version 4 license when it first became available, with the free upgrade to 5 I'd feel like I got my money's worth. But, I didn't, I bought it the day before version 5 was released which means I've got the *shortest* possible time to receive updates with my license. In my opinion, anybody that bought their version 4 license within a few months of version 5 being released should be entitled to a free upgrade to version 6 simply because of the short lifespan of version 5. Since it may not be practical to use date purchased when determining a free upgrade from version 4 I'm suggesting that all version 4 users be allowed a free upgrade.

[nielm]

Originally Posted by bfhoothead

Meaning that after 6 months I can no longer expect to get any bug fixes or minor upgrades to my software.

It has been stated several times by Sage (and repeated several times in this thread) that Sage v5 is still supported.

Just because they have said that they will not issue any new v5 public releases does not mean that they will not work with you to solve problems that you report with V5.

[bfhoothead]

Originally Posted by nielm

It has been stated several times by Sage (and repeated several times in this thread) that Sage v5 is still supported.

Just because they have said that they will not issue any new v5 public releases does not mean that they will not work with you to solve problems that you report with V5.

I believe it's also been specifically stated that there will be no point releases (bug fixes) to version 5. That's what I think doesn't add up since version 5 has only been around for about 6 months. Typically I would expect to see patch releases and minor upgrades for a version for at least a year. For instance, I'd love to see that 5.1 release with an option to auto-reconnect Placeshifter. It's safe to assume that support is not going to work with me to get that feature added to my version 5 software. I've owned my software for exactly six months, typically, I would be entitled to these kinds of things for a lot longer than that.

What you've said above does not contradict what I've said.

[JUC]

I'm jumping in way late to this discussion but i wanted to ask a few things before i really chime in with my opinion. How long was v4 out for? v5 (what-like 6 months?). Which release did Studio come into play?
Thanks,
Juc

[bfhoothead]

Originally Posted by JUC

I'm jumping in way late to this discussion but i wanted to ask a few things before i really chime in with my opinion. How long was v4 out for? v5 (what-like 6 months?). Which release did Studio come into play?
Thanks,
Juc

This post indicates that version 4.0 was released at the beginning of November, 2005: http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...hlight=release, so yes, about 6 months. I don't know when Studio came into play as I've not used it myself.

Assuming that 6.0 comes out around the beginning of November that would make 3 major releases in about 1 year. Again, I'm not suggesting that SageTV doesn't deserve to earn fees from upgrades, but with a release cycle like that it's a little fairer to the users to include the previous 2 releases for free upgrades.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by bfhoothead

I don't know when Studio came into play as I've not used it myself.

From the post you linked:

New Version 4.0 Also Includes SageTV Studio for User Customization

The inclusion of Studio was the reason the V3 beta got renumbered to V4 for release.

I've been following this thread intermittently but have so far managed to resist the urge to post. But as long as I'm here now I may as well say that in my opinion the upgrade policy is fair, even to people who bought V4 the day before V5 came out. Those late buyers got all the same bug fixes and updates that other V4 buyers got; they just got them all at once instead of spread out over several point releases. Similarly, everyone who bought V4, no matter when they bought it, got a free upgrade to V5, just as everyone who bought V5 is now getting a free upgrade to V6.

Presumably people who bought V4 did so because they felt that the V4 feature list and bug list justified the purchase price. The "bug list" part is important: the EULA clearly states that the software is sold "as is" and that there's no guarantee that bugs will be fixed or that it will ever do what you want it to do. That's why there's a 15-day free trial. If you made it through the trial and plunked down the money, you must have felt that V4 worked well enough on its own merits to be worth buying. If V5 came out the next day, that doesn't mean you missed out on six months' worth of updates; it means you got all the V4 updates that anybody else got and a free upgrade to V5, without having to wait six months for it.

At least that's how I see it. Having said that, I will now resume my previous lurking behavior.

[blade]

Originally Posted by bfhoothead

I believe it's also been specifically stated that there will be no point releases (bug fixes) to version 5. That's what I think doesn't add up since version 5 has only been around for about 6 months. Typically I would expect to see patch releases and minor upgrades for a version for at least a year. For instance, I'd love to see that 5.1 release with an option to auto-reconnect Placeshifter. It's safe to assume that support is not going to work with me to get that feature added to my version 5 software. I've owned my software for exactly six months, typically, I would be entitled to these kinds of things for a lot longer than that.

You keep saying v5 was only out for 6 months. Why does that matter? All updates in the past were free so really there isn't any difference between v2,3,4 or 5. Honestly, what difference does the version number or how long it was out make when there was no upgrade charge? I say this because it had no effect on whether or not you were going to purchase the product at that time.

If Sage had charged to upgrade from v4 to 5 and you held off purchasing the product until 5 was released I could see your point. My point is the version number had nothing to do with your original decision of whether or not to purchase Sage.

For example let's say Sage never released v5 and stayed with the v4 numbering system. You still would have purchased the product 6 months ago because it provided the same features. Ok, so hypothetically v4 has been out for 1 year and you've gotten the same number of updates as you did with v5 and are asked to pay an upgrade fee after owning the product for only 6 months. What would be different about the situation? Would you still argue that typically you get more than 6 months of free upgrades after purchasing a product?

No offense, but you bought the product towards the end of the free upgrade ride. Past numbering doesn't make much difference, what matters is what Sage does in the future now that they're charging.

For those who say it matters because they had to pay to upgrade..... well Sage knows how long the versions have been released. Obviously they wanted to provided those who purchased the product in the last 6 months to get free upgrades. If they had wanted those who've owned it for less than a year they'd have included v4 as well. Regardless of the time period they set someone will be on the fringe and be unhappy.

[badllama77]

I dont think it is unreasonable to ask for an upgrade fee for major version upgrades, good business model, works well. I do however have one comment to make. In order for this to seem reasonable to me is that there are significant changes from one update to the next. Til now while there have been some great changes to the support for hd and the stability. I would hope to see improvements to handling of media outside of tv. Offline video collections, music, metadata, and all of the reasonable functions that had become the standard in meedio before buyout, mythtv, and mediaportal. I know some of the STV's and STVi's take care of some of these functions. I think much should be handled by the program out of box without any third party plugins. I would like to say that doesn't include comskip for the obvious problems with the producers of the media.
To state it simply, why would one upgrade a system that works and is reasonably stable without some incentive.

Just my two cents.

Although looking at the features of the 6.0 I would have to say I think you get that so, nevermind, my bad hehe

[bfhoothead]

Originally Posted by blade

For example let's say Sage never released v5 and stayed with the v4 numbering system. You still would have purchased the product 6 months ago because it provided the same features. Ok, so hypothetically v4 has been out for 1 year and you've gotten the same number of updates as you did with v5 and are asked to pay an upgrade fee after owning the product for only 6 months. What would be different about the situation? Would you still argue that typically you get more than 6 months of free upgrades after purchasing a product?

No, I wouldn't. You're right. Thanks. I bought my 6.0 license .

[toddyus]

Let me first say that I think Sage TV is a great product. I've paid for the original license and a couple of client licenses along the way. Here's what bothers me about this new policy: when I bought Sage V 1.4 back in 2003, one of the significant reasons for the purchase was a guarantee from Frey that ALL future upgrades would be provided free. For life.

I assumed that this was a way to entice early adopters. I certainly did not expect them to continue this policy forever. I assumed they would alter the policy beginning at V 2.0. Version 1.4 was a great start but had plenty of bugs and limitations. In fact, when I bought 1.4 it was almost unusable for everyday mainstream use, but the promise of Version 2.0 was enough to get me to bite.

What bothers me is not the upgrade fee. Like any software product, if it offers me something useful, I'll pay it. What bothers me is the broken promise. In fact, if I could find a reference to the original promise it would be arguable as a breach of contract. What bothers me more is that to get this "generous discount" that everyone is talking about in this thread, I have to buy it now while the product is in beta. Unfortunately, my wife has a policy on beta software, and you can guess what it is.

I think Sage is great, but this is a very questionable business practice and quite possibly only feasible without repercussions in the software industry.

[toddyus]

I'm sure people will interpret this as they like, but here's a link to the FAQ about upgrades back during the V 1.4 days:

http://web.archive.org/web/200312181.../storefaq.html

A snippet:
"What is the upgrade policy for both SageTV and SageRecorder?

All upgrades to the current versions of SageTV and SageRecorder are covered when you purchase the fully licensed version of either application.

How will I be notified of available upgrades?

We will always post a link to the most current versions of either application on our home page at http://web.archive.org/web/200312181...//www.sage.tv/. "