Important Version 6 Upgrade Information

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by Olive

And what boggles my mind is that although I made it very explicit on several occasions, people like you keep ignoring the distinction between a bug-fix UPDATE and a version UPGRADE.

I find it insulting that you would distort the language I used. I never said any product should be free. I never said any upgrade should be free. I only gave some references supporting my view that it is not uncommon for UPDATES to be free.



If you actually read my post and if you actually followed any of the links, you would have seen that they are all for product UPDATES. That's the term that is specifically used on all these pages. I simply fail to understand why you keep mentioning "free UPGRADES".

As a matter of fact, I already stated in another thread that I believe the new features do justify a new version. I just fear that there will not be any v5 bug-fix UPDATES for those of us that are not interested in those new features.

Now repeat after me "an UPDATE (U-P-D-A-T-E) is not and UPGRADE (U-P-G-R-A-D-E)".

Olive

Last time I looked you weren't the only one making comments in this thread and maybe you're not the only one I'm talking to.

I was referencing your post for other people's comments too.

As for UPDATES...I think Narflex said "probably" not "definitely" no more updates.

Gerry

[jptaz]

I am an SageTV uber dork....I was looking and I purchased SageTV Server on May 19th, 2003. My first installed release Version was 1.3.8.
EDIT: I actually think I had 1.2.8 Installed prior to purchasing 1.3.8, but I am not positive.
Over the Years I have purchased the following software from Frey:

Order Number: 5B14017729913403M
May 19th, 2003 - SageTV Server License

Order Number: 1118
August 11th, 2003 - SageTV Client License

Order Number: 1228
September 3, 2003 - SageTV Recorder License (Network Encoder)

Order Number: 2318
Janruary 16, 2004 - SageTV Recorder License (Network Encoder 2)

Order Number: 6673
November 30th, 2004 - SageTV Client License from PC Alchemy

Order Number: 11285
December 17th, 2005 - SageTV Media Extender License

Order Number: 11538
December 24th, 2005 - SageTV Media Extender License

What is even worse I still have the following release Client and Serveer installers on my server:
1.3.8, 1.4.10, 2.0.19, 2.0.20, 2.1.10, 2.2.7, 2.2.8, 4.0.0, 4.1.3, 5.0.1, 5.0.2, 5.0.4

I have a boat load of Beta versions on my server too...No clue why.

When my lovely wife said I do she got 2 bits of baggage: my 10 year old dog and my obsession with SageTV

[spacecadet]

First of all, I would like to state my agreement with the posts relating to support based fixes ("updates" as Olive might say ). It would be nice if bug fixes were available as a point based release to 5.0 rather than requiring an upgrade to 6.0.

Secondly, I do have a couple of questions and it would be great if I could get some constructive answers rather han a reply from one of the couple of users who seem to keep posting with the "if you don't like it don't buy it" or "it's only $30 just shell out the cash tightwad" responses. I congratulate Sage for starting a sticky post that allows people to "vent" their concerns with an upgrade policy. But it would be great to get an official answer to some of the legitimate questions that have been asked here. I know that Sage employees don't typically respond to these forums, but without an official response here, the current dialog is just not very constructive. If there is a better place to get official answers to these questons, then please feel free to direct me there.

Anyway, I too would be interested in understanding a couple of things:

1. How will bug fixes to 5.0 be handled? With a "free" update or by upgrading to 6.0?

2. What will the upgrade policy be for versions beyond 6.0? If I opt to pass on upgrading to version 6.0 and continue to use version 5.0, do I lose the option to upgrade in the future? That is, if I am a version 4.0 user today and I remain on version 5.0, will I have to buy the full version of 7.0 when it is released? or will I still be able to upgrade from 4.0 to 7.0 for a nominal fee?

Based on the policy for 6.0, I might assume the following:

+ If you paid for a full license to use the current version, then you can upgrade to the next version for free
+ If you paid for a license to any version other than the current version, then you must pay a nominal fee to upgrade to the next version

I guess I would like to understand if Part 2 will continue to be true going forward..... or is the ability to upgrade really old versions (1.x, 2.x, 3.x) just a one time deal? And then going forward you will need to have a version 6 upgrade license to upgrade to version 7.

Any thoughts on this? At this point, I don't see any features that are compelling me to upgrade, but I would like to understand if passing on an upgrade now will preclude me from upgrading to a future version down the road from here. I think that there are examples out there of software companies doing it both ways - some will allow you to purchase an upgrade license from any previous version, others require a license for the latest version. I know that "$30/year isn't a big deal and I should just pay it", but that doesn't mean I can't ask for some clarifications before I make a decision

Thanks!

[jptaz]

I am interested to answer 1 as well.

I have had problems with HD TV playback and really do not see any improvements or features in 6.0 I want, but would like to see my playback issues resolved. In an ideal world that would just be a patch to 5.0.4, but if they actually correct the issue in 6.0 then I would gladly pay...though honestly I will pay either way to keep supporting SageTV. I in fact would have no issue with paying $30 for 1 year upgrade protection and support fee. I know others will disagree, but for them to continue to improve the product and keep adding new hardware to the supported list, maintaining these servers, providing EPG data, etc. costs money.

Just my thoughts,
John

[jptaz]

I would also like to add that I actually have worked with SageTV Support on a number of HDTV issues, some have been fixed, while others have not. I even physically shipped 3 old Hard Drives with raw HD Data Dumps to SageTV support along with a USB to IDE Adapter to troubleshoot with my actual data in July of this year.

I know that bad HD Streams can be problematic, but my big issue with that argument is that the exact same file SageTV has issues with Windows Media Player plays back with no issue at all and can even be fastforwarded without problem.

If I actually bought SageTV at version 5 I would probably be more agressive in wanting the issues resolved. I in fact bought my original SageTV license in 2003 for $59.95...Yes I have purchased clients and stuff, but really pretty cheap over a 3 year period. I may consider not paying for the upgrade if they do not resolve my issues.

John

[blade]

Originally Posted by jptaz

If I actually bought SageTV at version 5 I would probably be more agressive in wanting the issues resolved.

Why? Those that bought v5 get a free upgrade to v6.

[nielm]

Originally Posted by spacecadet

1. How will bug fixes to 5.0 be handled? With a "free" update or by upgrading to 6.0?

the official response is here. Official support has always been via email, and never in the forums, so for a 5.0 bug, reported by email/support web-form you will only get a response via email.

Olive: just because there will be no more public releases of v5, it does not mean that there will be no fixes for you for your problem(s). It has been clearly stated that this version is still supported.

2. What will the upgrade policy be for versions beyond 6.0?
+ If you paid for a full license to use the current version, then you can upgrade to the next version for free
+ If you paid for a license to any version other than the current version, then you must pay a nominal fee to upgrade to the next version

Who knows, and Sage are notoriously quiet on commercial issues, but this seems like a logical continuation of the policies enacted for V6.

Whether (old licence + v6 upgrade) will be considered equal to (v6 licence) for future upgrades remains to be seen.

Version numbering in the past has seemed a bit random, and a bit 'keeping up with the neighbours' but I guess it will get more strict from now on to take into account upgrade licencing considerations. We may see more 'point' releases with minor updates...

At this point, I don't see any features that are compelling me to upgrade.

Thats fine (although for me the music lib updates are a massive improvement!), but one other thing to consider is that at some point in the future STVI authors may no longer support <v6 versions of Sage.
Personally, I will try my best to make my imports backward compatible, but this is extra effort, and I will be unable to test on older versions (and you can see an example of this problem in the recent release of the dynamic menus).

[Olive]

Originally Posted by nielm

the official response is here. Official support has always been via email, and never in the forums, so for a 5.0 bug, reported by email/support web-form you will only get a response via email.

Olive: just because there will be no more public releases of v5, it does not mean that there will be no fixes for you for your problem(s). It has been clearly stated that this version is still supported.

Sorry nielm, I know you are one of the few upgraders who did understand my issue and you made the fair statement above a couple of times already. I was only responding to people who (a) don't seem to get the point at all and (b) add insult to injury by posting infuriating comments.

As for private support, the answer I got at the time I first reported my problems was that they would be fixed in 5.1. Only because I expected 5.1 to be free, did I decide to patiently wait. Now that it appears there will be no 5.1, I did contact Sage again, pointing them the new policy and asking for clarifications. But I only got a very short pro-forma and ambigous answer Hence my persistent fear, which I voice here in support to the other members who are in the same situation.

Olive

[spacecadet]

Thanks to neilm for your well thought out response.

Thats fine (although for me the music lib updates are a massive improvement!), but one other thing to consider is that at some point in the future STVI authors may no longer support <v6 versions of Sage.
Personally, I will try my best to make my imports backward compatible, but this is extra effort, and I will be unable to test on older versions (and you can see an example of this problem in the recent release of the dynamic menus).

That's a great point! All your awesome plug-ins add additional great "features" to Sage (personally I use IMDB search and Intelligent Suggestions and love them both). Certainly something like a plug-in could compel me to upgrade. Or if I understood how the upgrade policy will function going forward I might be compelled to upgrade also, just to "stay in the loop". The one feature in the new release that does look interesting to me is the ability to "auto-compress" shows, and although I don't have an immediate need for that functionality yet, I may upgrade just to keep my options open with this.

the official response is here. Official support has always been via email, and never in the forums, so for a 5.0 bug, reported by email/support web-form you will only get a response via email.

I guess a couple have responded to item #1 (will there be "free" bug fixes for 5.0) by pointing to the Narflex response. And I, like others, find the response to be incredibly ambiguous. I read the response as:

"The product is supported and you will continue to recieve free EPG updates. And if you contact support with a question, we're not going to ignore your email and we'll be happy to work with you to diagnose the problem to determine an answer. But, if there's something wrong that requires an update to the software, we're *probably* not going to do anything about it in 5.0."

To me that says: "No free bug fixes for 5.0 unless the problem is so catastrophic that our entire user community would benefit from an update, and then we might consider releasing something." Call me cynical, but that's my take on it, anyway.

Sounds like Olive has also contacted support directly and recieved no satisfaction via that route, so I guess the question is still unresolved (in my mind anyway).

I suppose I'd also like to add a Question 3 to my list:

3. How long will v5.0 users receive free EPG updates?

At the (unspecified) point in the future when v5.0 is no longer supported, will v5.0 users still receive EPG updates? Even though one of the things that drove me to purchase Sage was the idea that I wouldn't be paying for access to an EPG, I can understand if Sage were to move to this model and I wouldn't be completely disappointed to pay $30/year, which is great value for the service Sage provides (as I am sure it is not free for them to supply us with an EPG, although maybe I am wrong about this).

Any thoughts on this latest question?

I know that Sage is private, etc, etc. But when I buy software, I am entering into a contract with the company. Typically, that contract is spelled out in a License or Terms of Use and would define (some) these answers so that I am not left to guess what I am getting for my $X. Perhaps these Terms of Use are available and I don't know about them, so please feel free to direct me there if such a document exists (I'll admit that I'm lazy and haven't looked).

For example, (my apologies for bringing M$ into the discussion), when I purchase Microsoft Money 2006, very clearly noted in the License is: "you will receive access to Microsoft Money's online features for 24 months after you first activate the product". So, I know going in that okay, I spent $X on MS Money and for my $X, I am getting 24 months of access to stock quotes, etc at which point I need to pay $X more to upgrade and continue getting access to that feature. Then I can ask myself the question, "Do I want to spend $X every two years to keep using M$ Money?" And the answer is, yes, I am happy to spend that because the features are worth spending $X every two years.

It's unfortunate that there aren't clear answers to these questions, as these answers are going to play into my decision regarding whether or not to plunk down $30 for the upgrade. In addition to knowing what features I am missing out on (which are very well published), I would like to understand what level of service I can expect (which is not well published) if I choose not to pay the $30.

Right now, I can choose to not pay $30 and hope that these assumptions are correct (Bugs fixes will be made for 5.0, you will always be able to upgrade from 1.x to the latest for a nominal fee, EPG support will continue forever) or I can choose to not pay $30 and in 8 months down the road find out that these assumptions are wrong and am left holding the bag for a full priced upgrade to the next version.

Just my two cents. (And before you reply, yes, I should probably just "quit being cheap and throw my $30 at Sage for this awesome product")

[jptaz]

Originally Posted by blade

Why? Those that bought v5 get a free upgrade to v6.

Because it would mean that I purchased the product within the last year, and not over 3 years ago...I am not sold that the issue is resolved in 6.0

[spacecadet]

Originally Posted by spacecadet

I suppose I'd also like to add a Question 3 to my list:

3. How long will v5.0 users receive free EPG updates?

I was able to find this in the SageTV Manual:

"Currently SageTV provides Electronic Programming Guide data service (the "EPG Service") for the US and Canada to End Users at no charge. End User acknowledges that SageTV reserves the right to discontinue provision of the EPG Services or may separately charge users for provision of the EPG Service."

Also found an EndUserLicense.txt file in my SageTV directory, but this file looks like it is there to satisfy the licensing requirements of the third party software packages used by Sage, but doesn't provide other detail to the End User.

I guess the manual offers some insight into the EPG updates question - if only to muddy the picture by saying "EPG Updates are not guaranteed to be free forever". I guess I'd still like clarification on this - although as neilm and others have pointed out, this clarification is not likely to be forthcoming.

[Opus4]

Olive:

BTW, you do know that the first issue you linked to was fixed & available at the time in an updated translation file from support, right? I posted that in the thread you linked to.

I'm not entirely sure about the 2nd one, but I thought that one was related to assigning a keystroke to a command. Have you tried using the keyboard to assign that keystroke to the appropriate command & then tried the remote button again?

- Andy

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by spacecadet

I guess the manual offers some insight into the EPG updates question - if only to muddy the picture by saying "EPG Updates are not guaranteed to be free forever". I guess I'd still like clarification on this - although as neilm and others have pointed out, this clarification is not likely to be forthcoming.

What is there to clarify about this? There is nothing muddy about the fact that there is absolutely no way in the world to guarantee that SageTV could provide a free EPG service forever, so they are pointing out that there is no guarantee in order to prevent anyone from thinking there is a guarantee. It doesn't mean there is an inevitable change; it doesn't mean there will be no change. It just means that's the way things are today.

- Andy

[Olive]

Thanks for trying to resolve my issues, Andy.

Originally Posted by Opus4

Olive:

BTW, you do know that the first issue you linked to was fixed & available at the time in an updated translation file from support, right? I posted that in the thread you linked to.

I did contact support but the only thing I got from them was a statement that they "found the issue and will be fixing it for the next release."

The updated translation file I received from flavict in the forum rather than from support solved my first translation issue but not the second one (see my last post in that thread).

At that point, considering I was then using an unofficial translation file and support had not been that very helpful, I decided to just wait for the promised next release.

I think I've been nice and patient. My girlfriend just had to learn English in the meantime

Originally Posted by Opus4

I'm not entirely sure about the 2nd one, but I thought that one was related to assigning a keystroke to a command. Have you tried using the keyboard to assign that keystroke to the appropriate command & then tried the remote button again?

That one was not too bad indeed. As a workaround, I just had to manually remap all the remote buttons.

But I'm still waiting for a fix for my first problem (the second part of it at least), and my point really is that I'm not the only one in this situation. Other people are expecting their own fixes. And the least that can be said is that Sage has not been very clear about whether or not they will eventually provide fixes (in whatever form and by whatever means). Stating the fix will be in the next release is simply not satisfactory for those of us that decide not to upgrade to version 6.

Olive

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by Olive

The updated translation file I received from flavict in the forum rather than from support solved my first translation issue but not the second one (see my last post in that thread).
...
At that point, considering I was then using an unofficial translation file and support had not been that very helpful, I decided to just wait for the promised next release.
...
But I'm still waiting for a fix for my first problem

That updated translation file you downloaded from flavict is the offical fix, as it came from support (I made the change in the file & it was never changed after that). It looks like you chose not to use the provided solution!

Now, you said you fixed the second problem with the remote by doing just what I said would have fixed it.

So, the resolutions for both of your issues have already been provided to you(except for the actor's issue; more below): 1) the problem with seeing 'true' instead of the episode name and 2) the remote <-> command link problem had a work-around fix that you just acknowledged doing.

The actors issue will probably take a full re-translation to resolve & that hasn't even been done yet for v6, so there is nothing to give about that for v5.

It doesn't look like you are missing any updates at all & the fixes are available by contacting support... thus those issues are _still_ supported and resolved for v5 users. I don't foresee an entirely new v5.0 version being released just to fix these 2 problems that affect a few people and have easy fixes that can be applied as needed. What a long string of posts to find out your issues were fixed long ago...

- Andy

[Goodspike]

I don't mind paying the $30.00 to upgrade, but I will point out that there are some of us who bought the key just to use the prior beta which was the first HD Sage product. So basically, as I understand it, I'll have to pay even though the only version I've ever used was the current version (including the betas of the current version).

Stated differently, using a date of purchase might be a better option for those of us that have only used Sage versions that support HDTV.

[Olive]

Originally Posted by Opus4

It doesn't look like you are missing any updates at all & the fixes are available by contacting support... thus those issues are _still_ supported and resolved for v5 users. I don't foresee an entirely new v5.0 version being released just to fix these 2 problems that affect a few people and have easy fixes that can be applied as needed. What a long string of posts to find out your issues were fixed long ago...

I'll state that again: saying the actors issue has not been fixed in v6 either does not resolve my v5 problem.

Olive

[Opus4]

And, that's a better way to write your post, the 2nd time around.

- Andy

[Olive]

Fair enough. It wasn't nice of me to play stupid the way I did, but I believe we now understand each other.

All my apologies.

Olive

[blade]

Originally Posted by Olive

I'll state that again: saying the actors issue has not been fixed in v6 either does not resolve my v5 problem.

Olive

Nor does it resolve the problem for anyone else. Your complaint was having to pay for bug fixes which obviously isn't the case if no fix has been provided for v6 yet.

If you don't get a fix for v5 once it is resolved with v6 then I could see your point.