Important Version 6 Upgrade Information

[alijiwani]

Originally Posted by bkmurphy

The real problem here is that many of us bought licenses (I bought mine in April 2006) for what ultimately became v5 though we now don't have v5 licenses. When I bought a license in April 2006 , I did at the same time I installed v4.1.xx beta (and eventually there was a 4.1.xx RC later that month), only to have that v4.1.xx beta renamed as v5 a couple weeks later - near the end of April. I think the issue here is that if those of us who bought earlier this year had known this upgrade policy AND that v5 was around the corner (instead of another point upgrade to v4.1), we would have simply waited a couple weeks for the official release of v5 to buy our licenses and we would now have a free upgrade. It seems we are now being penalized for buying while v4.1.xx (now v5) was still in beta.

I think most of this thread is missing the real ire of many of us - and bkmurphy summarized it above very well. I purchased one of my server licences while we had the 4.1.XX/v5 betas but was issued a v4 serial number. By the convention Sage is using right now, that should have been a version 5 serial then, not as Sage Support told me a v4 number. By the information I was emailed, it seems that Sage decided that until the official release, all serials were v4. I would say by the same token, then all these v6 betas should now be considered v5 and not ask us to pay for an upgrade.

And to all those people who say things like "well you should have waited" and another nasty comments - take the fact that Sage, in its usual desire to try and remain as secretive as apple, gives us no information about release dates or any other information. None of us knew v5 was going to be v5 till the day it was announced as everything stated v4.1. We didnt know Sage was going to go back on its word to fix issues with v5 and make those fixes v6. We didnt know v6 was coming out now. Maybe someone here has the magic 8 ball, but it seems the majority of us do not. Most companies either have a release schedule thats regular or known, or do tiered upgrades. It seems that Sage has neither, making any semblance of waiting moot point. It also didn't occur to us that Sage would be the type of company to later claim that because you bought your licence during a beta period, your licence would be considered the older version - especially since we assumed we were getting 4.1.xx not 5.0.

[blade]

Originally Posted by DynamoBen

Sigh...Its not about price it is about a business model change, expectations, and the future. Obviously some are not following my point conceptually.

I think most get your point, many just disagree with it. If it was stated when I purchased the product that I got free upgrades for life I would totally agree with you; however, Sage never promised free upgrades and always said they reserved the right to change their policies in the future.

I loved the fact they didn't charge for upgrades, but at the same time I can't expect the developers to continue to add new features and give them to me for free.

[DynamoBen]

Opus, thank you for keeping things somewhat civilized.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by DynamoBen

jominor, if you don't like this thread THEN QUIT READING IT! I don't appreciate the name calling. Read and understand my posts before the personal attacks! I may not agree with your point of view but I have a right like anyone else to voice my concerns.

I do understand your post, but "whiners" was out of line. Sorry.

However, I will keep "cheap".

[jominor]

Originally Posted by alijiwani

I think most of this thread is missing the real ire of many of us - and bkmurphy summarized it above very well. I purchased one of my server licences while we had the 4.1.XX/v5 betas but was issued a v4 serial number. By the convention Sage is using right now, that should have been a version 5 serial then, not as Sage Support told me a v4 number. By the information I was emailed, it seems that Sage decided that until the official release, all serials were v4. I would say by the same token, then all these v6 betas should now be considered v5 and not ask us to pay for an upgrade.

And to all those people who say things like "well you should have waited" and another nasty comments - take the fact that Sage, in its usual desire to try and remain as secretive as apple, gives us no information about release dates or any other information. None of us knew v5 was going to be v5 till the day it was announced as everything stated v4.1. We didnt know Sage was going to go back on its word to fix issues with v5 and make those fixes v6. We didnt know v6 was coming out now. Maybe someone here has the magic 8 ball, but it seems the majority of us do not. Most companies either have a release schedule thats regular or known, or do tiered upgrades. It seems that Sage has neither, making any semblance of waiting moot point. It also didn't occur to us that Sage would be the type of company to later claim that because you bought your licence during a beta period, your licence would be considered the older version - especially since we assumed we were getting 4.1.xx not 5.0.

Like MS. Like Intuit. Adobe? IBM? Most of thise companies routinely miss ship dates, MS being the most egregious offenders. Most companies don't give schedules because of situations just like this. Look out if they miss their date.

Most companies don't talk about features until they are close to releasing the product. If they announcing features to soon, they get accused of FUD. If they drop anything, of overpromising.

This situation is as old as software purchasing.

[Olive]

Originally Posted by jominor

Like MS. Like Intuit. Adobe? IBM?

I know I'm taking this quote out of context, but MS and IBM certainly do release fixes for older versions of their software. I just hope Sage will as well.

I'm not familiar with software from Intuit or Adobe, but I walways thought this was standard industry practice.

Olive

[briands]

Will this thread ever contain another post with value to the topic "Important Version 6 Upgrade information"?

[blade]

Originally Posted by jominor

Most companies don't talk about features until they are close to releasing the product. If they announcing features to soon, they get accused of FUD. If they drop anything, of overpromising.

Not to mention their competition knows what they're up to and have more time to implement the feature themselves.

I know I'm taking this quote out of context, but MS and IBM certainly do release fixes for older versions of their software. I just hope Sage will as well.

Yes you did take it completely out of text. It was in reference to dates and plans for future release dates and a roadmap of features. Nothing about fixes for older versions.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by Olive

I know I'm taking this quote out of context, but MS and IBM certainly do release fixes for older versions of their software. I just hope Sage will as well.

I'm not familiar with software from Intuit or Adobe, but I walways thought this was standard industry practice.

Olive

How much do you pay? Hundreds of dollars for Office or Windows, thousands for Websphere AND for IBM, don't forget that 18% maintenance fee.

Also, how many times has MS said that a fix was available only for XP, not say Win2k?

That hasn't come up in conversation. Quite a bit of the stuff I've seen comes with that fee built in. Should Sage do that, too?

I mentioned Intuit because I upgraded to Quicken 2006 and not 3 months later I got an email for 2007 at the cost of $60 dollars. Guess what, I'm not buying. Problem solved.

As I've mentioned, I just got my copy of Comicbase 11@$100 for the upgrade. And their data upgrades last just one year. And their non-upgrade price is $300.

[blade]

Originally Posted by briands

Will this thread ever contain another post with value to the topic "Important Version 6 Upgrade information"?

Like what type of information? The initial post was to inform users of the new upgrade policy and the last line of the post was "Feel free to discuss this on this thread". Looks like this thread is being used for what it was initially intended. Technical issues are addressed in another thread completely.

[Olive]

I just ran a quick search through google and found these free updates (I'm specifically refering to bug-fix updates here, not version upgrades):

Macromedia Shockwave: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/thiggi...g_soon_sho.cfm

Marketcircle Daylite: http://www.marketcircle.com/wp/?p=156

BareBones BBEdit, Mailsmith, Yojimbo, TextWrangler: http://www.barebones.com/support/updates.shtml

Sega Football Manager: http://www.gamershell.com/news/20480.html

Quark QuarkXpress: http://www.quark.com/products/xpress/65update.html

Adobe Flash Media Server: http://www.adobe.com/support/flashme..._updaters.html

Parallels Desktop for Mac: http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/update/

I believe not all of them cost in the hundreds or even thousands, and believe it is therefore right to assume that free updates (again, as opposed to version upgrades) are standard industry practice.

Olive

[MeInMaui]

Does anyone else find it impressive that Sage specifically endorsed a place on the forums to discuss the upgrade policy and vent frustrations? I know of certain other forums (which will remain unnamed) where that kind of discussion would be smacked down so quickly your head would spin. Yet another reason why I love these forums.

Mike

[jominor]

Originally Posted by Olive

I just ran a quick search through google and found these free updates (I'm specifically refering to bug-fix updates here, not version upgrades):



I believe not all of them cost in the hundreds or even thousands, and believe it is therefore right to assume that free updates (again, as opposed to version upgrades) are standard industry practice.

Olive

Sage has released bug fix upgrades. We are, I thought, talking about version upgrades.

[Olive]

Originally Posted by jominor

Sage has released bug fix upgrades. We are, I thought, talking about version upgrades.

They have. But this post makes it sound like that for V5 they won't anymore:

Originally Posted by Narflex

There won't be a V5.1 release.

We're still supporting V5.0...it is our current release product. But there will probably not be anymore updates to it released.

which makes me fear I will never see any bug fixes for my 5.0.4 problems :-( I am not arguing about the upgrade policy, I just have an issue with the support policy.

Edit: and my previous posts were aimed at showing that it is to be expected to have to deal with support for older versions when a paying upgrade is released.

Olive

[Polypro]

DirecTiVo $4.95 a month x12 = $59.40 per year.

Old TiVo was $12.95 a month x12 = $155.40 per year. Now it's:

One-year service commitment is $19.95 a month, or $224 prepaid.
Two-year service commitment is $18.95 a month, or $369 prepaid.
Three-year service commitment is $16.95 a month, or $469 prepaid.

Sage 2.2.8 - 5.0.4 = $79.95 one time fee.

For me, my v5 is rock solid perfect and I don't *need* v6....but I want it and $30 is fine by me. Sage has been an absolute joy for me and my family. JMHO

P

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by Olive

They have. But this post makes it sound like that for V5 they won't anymore:

which makes me fear I will never see any bug fixes for my 5.0.4 problems :-( I am not arguing about the upgrade policy, I just have an issue with the support policy.

Edit: and my previous posts were aimed at showing that it is to be expected to have to deal with support for older versions when a paying upgrade is released.

Olive

And maybe we're all jumping the gun. Maybe he means there wont be any more point releases for 5. But maybe there will be a bug fixe or two. Maybe there won't be. I'm not going to put words in anyones mouth. And if no fixes come out $30 will get you them.

But Sage is also trying to encourage sales and generate revenue. There are people who were running ver. 2.2.8, ver 4 something and were perfectly happy. Hasn't anyone noticed the increase in personal answering some questions on the forum? Have you noticed the release of the Linux product, the work going on now for the MAC OSX version? People are clamoring for some type of HD extender. It all takes time, money and resources.

Someone pointed out the business model changed. I'm not sure that's true. They always said they would TRY to keep upgrades free, but just like life, there are no guarantees. They've always said they reserve the right to change the policy at any time. They have. Get over it. As many links as you can find for free upgrades I can find twice as many for upgrades that cost. Even some of the links provided have had upgrades that cost prior to this.

It's just boggles my mind how there appears to be an attitude that if its available on the Internet it should be free in some aspect. The product should be free, upgrades should be free, something. So maybe now we can all hope that we don't pay an upgrade until version 7. But maybe we have to pay an upgrade for every .5 version. Who knows? But if they price it fair and add new features I'm in. (And I'm proclaiming right here and now they have done that for this version. Fair price and new features are there.)

Gerry

[briands]

Originally Posted by blade

Like what type of information? The initial post was to inform users of the new upgrade policy and the last line of the post was "Feel free to discuss this on this thread". Looks like this thread is being used for what it was initially intended. Technical issues are addressed in another thread completely.

Sorry, I stand corrected... I got this one confused with the other beta release thread...

Debate away... I'll just stop reading this one...

[rfutscher]

Originally Posted by Polypro

....
For me, my v5 is rock solid perfect and I don't *need* v6....but I want it and $30 is fine by me. Sage has been an absolute joy for me and my family. JMHO

P

For me v5 is not rock solid. There are tuning issues and program guide issues with v5. I have worked with tech support to define the issue so that they could duplicate the problem. I have been waiting patiently for months for v5.1 with the bug fixes. Now I find out the bugs have been fixed and are only available in v6.

Sage has never worked correctly for me. Now I need to pay an additional $40 to get the bug fixes. Maybe if I had been nasty at the start of the v5 beta cycle the bugs I am having problem with would have been made a higher priority and fixed before the final release of v5. That would have made me a happy camper.

[Olive]

Originally Posted by gplasky

It's just boggles my mind how there appears to be an attitude that if its available on the Internet it should be free in some aspect. The product should be free, upgrades should be free, something. So maybe now we can all hope that we don't pay an upgrade until version 7. But maybe we have to pay an upgrade for every .5 version. Who knows? But if they price it fair and add new features I'm in. (And I'm proclaiming right here and now they have done that for this version. Fair price and new features are there.)Gerry

And what boggles my mind is that although I made it very explicit on several occasions, people like you keep ignoring the distinction between a bug-fix UPDATE and a version UPGRADE.

I find it insulting that you would distort the language I used. I never said any product should be free. I never said any upgrade should be free. I only gave some references supporting my view that it is not uncommon for UPDATES to be free.

Originally Posted by gplasky

As many links as you can find for free upgrades I can find twice as many for upgrades that cost. Even some of the links provided have had upgrades that cost prior to this.

If you actually read my post and if you actually followed any of the links, you would have seen that they are all for product UPDATES. That's the term that is specifically used on all these pages. I simply fail to understand why you keep mentioning "free UPGRADES".

As a matter of fact, I already stated in another thread that I believe the new features do justify a new version. I just fear that there will not be any v5 bug-fix UPDATES for those of us that are not interested in those new features.

Now repeat after me "an UPDATE (U-P-D-A-T-E) is not and UPGRADE (U-P-G-R-A-D-E)".

Olive

[blade]

Originally Posted by Olive

And what boggles my mind is that although I made it very explicit on several occasions, people like you keep ignoring the distinction between a bug-fix UPDATE and a version UPGRADE.

Sage has already said they would charge for version upgrades and not point releases. I would assume the point releases will be mostly bug fixes. Whether or not they'll offer updates for v5.0 is something you'll have to ask Sage. Have you actually contacted them about your problems since the announcement to see what they intend to do or are you just assuming they won't provide anymore support? Even if they don't provide another v5.xx releases that doesn't mean they couldn't provide fixes on a case by case basis.

For many people v5.0 is very stable and no bug fixes are needed and for others it is not. I may be wrong, but I wouldn't expect the company to devote a lot of resources to solve the problems of a few people using an older release especially if it is more economical to provide fixes on a case by case basis.

From a purely business point of view you'll never have 100% customer satisfaction and there will always be someone experiencing an uncommon problem and a company has to decide when a problem becomes insignificant enough that it no longer warrants dumping resources into fixing. I'm not trying to belittle your problem just stating a fact of business.