Nvidia Video Card guide

[autoboy]

I have done extensive research on Nvidia video cards for my client and I thought i would share some of the information i have found.

First off, Nvidia Purevideo and Avivo from ATI produce both produce video comparable to some $2000 DVD players. Here is a good Video that compares them and here is a good article. Overall, the gist of the article is that AVIVO and Purevideo are even in the parts that matter even though AVIVO wins overall. Since Pureviedeo is better documented, I chose to go with Nvidia but both produce excellent video quality. I could not find as much information on the features of each ATI card as I could with Nvidia.

Here is a good article that explains things pretty well. This is an older article and shows where the quality has come with driver updates. It does give a good explanation for 3:2 pulldown.

The next important fact I learned was that Purevideo acceleration scales with clockspeed, not with the # of shaders. This fact was difficult to track down but I finally found it in an article concerning Purevideo HD (the HD-DVD and BlueRay player from Nvidia). I also talked with several others experimenting with clockspeed for H.264 acceleration and they confirmed this. Basically, the same programable video accelerator used to accelerate DVD video, can be used to accelerate H.264 and WMV. This silicon is in the 2D part of the card and so is independant from the 3D performance of the card. Memory bandwidth may make an impact here but it seems that only extreme cases like turbocache and the onboard video chipset 6150 are starved for bandwidth during video processing. There is still some speculation about whether Nvidia will eventually use the shaders to offload more video tasks. This is unconfirmed at this time but seems likely for BlueRay and HD-DVD. Most likely they will do some of the DRM decoding. This might allow single core cpus to play HD-DVD and BluRay.

There has been some question here whether or not VMR9 (delinterlacing) is handled in the 3D piplines. Since it is a Direct 3D feature, It is safe to say that it is likely. Whether it is handled in the 3D pipelines or in the 2D part of the card, all of the 7X00 series cards are capable of VMR9 acceleration for 1080i video. Nvidia cards seem to only work well in HD with FSE (full screen exclusive mode) enabled. So far I have only confirmed this for 720p monitors. Some questions still remain for 1080p monitors.

Despite the clockspeed being the most important part for H.264, VC-1, MPEG2, and WMV Purevideo acceleration, there are some Purevideo functions that are not available on some cards. A list of Nvidia cards showing the purevideo funcitons they support can be found here.
Explanations of features can be found here.
Clock speeds are as follows:
7300GT - 350mhz
7300LE - 450mhz
7600GS - 450mhz
7800GT - 450mhz
7900GT - 450mhz
7900GS - 450mhz
6150 - 475mhz
7300GS - 550mhz
7950GT - 550mhz
7600GT - 560mhz
7900GTX - 650mhz
etc. You get the idea

This indicates that the 7300GS and the 7600GT should be equal in their ability to offload H.264 and WMV. However, if we look at the features supported, the 7300GS lacks a key feature, HD Inverse Telecine. (Bad Edit correction is not that important) Inverse Telecine is an important feature for 1080i video. I'm still not sure why IVTC is good, but I think it basically correctly deinterlaces the 1080i signal to get a 1080p picture. Without Inverse Telecine, the card bobs to 540p then scales to your resolution. I could be wrong on this part though. Both cards support Inverse Telecine for SD content including DVD.

So this confirms that the 7600GT is the leader for HD video output. However, if you don't mind losing Inverse Telecine, the 7300GS is a great lower cost option. It can also be found passive.

The 6150 is also a good chip and can hold its own against discrete cards. However, the 6150 lacks HD Spacial Temporal Deinterlacing as well as HD Inverse Telecine. For SD content, it offers the same advantages as the other cards but comes basically free. Some have experienced problems running a full 1080p monitor with the 6150. It is probably best to run this chip at 720p. If you plan on running 1080p you might want to do some more research.

The 7300LE and the 7600GS are basically the same for purevideo. Both lack HD Inverse Telecine and both can be found passive. The 7600GS is a much better gaming card but the 7300LE is only $50 right now

The 7300GT is on the same chip as the 7600GS/GT but only has a 350mhz clock speed. It is the worst for HD Purevideo acceleration. During the Purevideo HD testing linked above, when they played with clock speed vs acceleration, 350mhz offered little acceleration, similiar to no acceleration at all. I have no experience with this card so I can't comment on its real world performance in regular HD programming. This card is also not listed on the purevideo comparison chart, likely because of its embarasing performance.

SLI is not used for video processing.

Purevideo HD is still very new so not much information exists yet. With Purevideo HD the video acceleration is very important to offload the cpu, allowing it to decode the crappy DRM. Sphere over at HTPCnews.com has sucessfully run a 7300GS with Purevideo HD acceleration. The high clock of the 7300GS enabled seamless playback of content. Since there is no deinterlacing on 1080p content the VMR9 features are not really that important. I'm pretty sure he used an analog connection because HDCP 7300 cards do not exist yet. VGA or component can still output 1080p content until the studios enable the content protection flag, limiting output to 540p, rumored to be in 2010.

The Nvidia website does not differentiate between support for 720p, 1080i, or 1080p high definition. There has been little written about powering 1080p displays and what kind of hardware is required to support 1080p. For now, until more information has been gathered, let's assume that all information presented here is for 720p displays only.

To sum it all up, any of these cards offer all features for SD video. If you primarily watch DVDs or analog TV, Purevideo will look great on any 7X00 card. For HD, the leader is the 7600GT and up. The 7600GT can also be found with HDCP and HDMI output allowing you to play BlueRay and HD-DVD with a digital connection when you get them. For users on a budget, the 7300GS or 7300LE are great alternatives and are often found passive. The features for 6X00 cards can be found on the purevideo link. I'll let you play with that if you still want or already own a 6X00 card. Some Purevideo features are missing on some 6X00 cards.

I ended up buying a 7300LE and it works great on 1080i and 720p material on my 720p DLP (FSE only. Tearing without FSE). DVDs look stunning. My system is a lowly sempron 2600+ and HD video uses 25-35% cpu. WMV encoded at 1080p uses 50%. My 9600xt could not accelerate 1080p WMV so I got 100% cpu usage and stuttering. When i get HD-DVD, i'll have to upgrade to an HDCP video card (and dual core if the video card does not offload more processing with future driver updates) so I decided to save money now. I want to make it clear that my experience with the 7300LE is with a 720p display. While it runs well for my application, it may not work the same for everyone. There are always other factors. Also, 1080p displays are still fairly rare and there has not been much first hand experience with these displays. They require more horsepower than 720p displays. If you have information about 1080p displays and purevideo, please let me know.

[ToxMox]

Great post! You basically did the leg work I was going to do in about 2 months Thanks for saving me some time.

[stanger89]

First off, thanks for the post, I'm sure it will help many here

Originally Posted by autoboy

I have done extensive research on Nvidia video cards for my client and I thought i would share some of the information i have found.

First off, Nvidia Purevideo and Avivo from ATI produce both produce video better than $3000 DVD players.

As much of an advocate for HTPCs as I am, I don't think I believe this. When you start talking $3000 for a DVD player, you must consider the Denon 5910, which is powered by the Realta HQV chip, probably the only chip which can manage a perfect score on HQV Benchmark DVD. I'd place the Genum VXP on the same level as the HQV, but with different strengths.

While far closer than previously, nothing on the PC side can match the Realta HQV or Genum VXP processors.

That said, I'd take and HTPC with it's far greater extensibility and only marginally inferior processing over a more expensive DVD player any day.

Here is a good article and video that compares them. Overall, the gist of the article is that AVIVO and Purevideo are even in the parts that matter even though AVIVO wins overall.

I assume you're basing that off the better HQV scores AVIVO has seen in some reviews. Problem is, that only tells a very small part of the story, in addition, those reviews are far from consistent.

At this point I'd put AVIVO and PureVideo on a "theortecially" equal playing field, each with their strenghts and weaknesses (AVIVO is a bit better with diagonal filtering, while PureVideo is better with film detection (the only one with HD film detection).

The next important fact I learned was that Purevideo scales with clockspeed, not with the # of shaders. This fact was difficult to track down but I finally found it in an article concerning Purevideo HD (the HD-DVD and BlueRay player from Nvidia).

While definitely true, that doesn't come close to telling the full story. First, there's the issue of different chips, I'm sure GPU speed scales with clockspeed on a single GPU, but I don't see any evidence to show that 350MHz on X GPU is equal to 350MHz on Y GPU. It may be, I don't know.

But beyond that, there is more, specifically VMR9. All the best playback softwares out there today use VMR9 for rendering video, and VMR9 performance most certainly is affected by GPU (3D) power, as VMR9 uses D3D to render video, basically as a texture on polygons.

And one last thing, is the tests in that article seem only to relate to decode accelleration, it wouldn't/doesn't surprise me that the decode accelleration is done in the 2D part of the GPU, but what about deinterlacing? Deinterlacing is, I believe, done in the 3D pipeline. This is most clearly evidenced by the different deinterlace modes available depending on renderer chosen, ie:[LIST][*]Overlay or VMR 7 (ie "default")

• Best Available
• Display Fields Separately (ie Weave)
• Combine Fields (ie Bob)

[*]VMR 9

• VMR Default
• VMR Pixel Adaptive (ie Spacial-Temporal deinterlacing)
• VMR Vertical Stretch

Further, if you look at the PureVideo product comparison, you'll see that the advanced processing (not decoding) functions (IVTC deinterlacing, etc) are tied to the more powerful GPUs.

This indicates that the 7300GS and the 7600GT should be equal in their ability to produce clean stutter free Purevideo images in HD.

On that note, did anyone notice that the firingsquad video stated that the ASUS 7600GS card offered HD IVTC, however nVidia does not list those features for the 7600GS GPU?

However, if we look at the features supported, the 7300GS lacks a key feature, HD Inverse Telecine. (Bad Edit correction is not that important)

Bad edit correction depends, with big-budget Hollywood films, no it's not a big deal, nor is IVTC, as most Hollywood films are well flagged, but in the case of SD, especially things recorded by Sage, both are very important. I've not looked into OTA HD to see how those are flagged, but they may well also be flagged poorly, in which case, again, both would be important there too.

My guess is that Nvidia disabled this feature on the 7300GS to sell more expensive video cards to people like you and me.

I suspect, no proof, that the IVTC/Deinterlacing is indeed done in the 3D portion of the GPU, and as such, requires the more powerfull GPUs to be possible.

Inverse Telecine is an important feature for 1080i video.

Quick correction, IVTC is important for HD film which is broadcast as video. Film is progressive, but most/many networks broadcast it as 1080i video. IVTC is required to reconstruct the progressive frames from the broadcast fields.

Adaptive deinterlacing is important for HD video.

I'm still not sure why IT is good, but I think it basically correctly deinterlaces the 1080i signal to get a 1080p picture. Without Inverse Telecine, the card bobs to 540p then scales to your resolution. I could be wrong on this part though. Both cards support Inverse Telecine for SD content including DVD.

That's one thing I've wondered, I've never seen Film Detection/IVTC/etc mentioned in the AVIVO documents... Is it really there, or does AVIVO just deinterlace everything?

So this confirms that the 7600GT is the leader for HD video output. However, if you don't mind losing Inverse Telecine, the 7300GS is a great lower cost option. It can also be found passive.

Yup, I'm still waiting for a 7600GT with passive cooling before I upgrade my HTPC.

The 6150 is also a good chip and can hold its own against discrete cards. However, the 6150 lacks HD Spacial Temporal Deinterlacing as well as HD Inverse Telecine. For SD content, it offers the same advantages as the other cards but comes basically free.

Judging by the comments here, it seems like the 6150 can barely get by, many have trouble with it, especially when trying to run VMR9 (again, 3D power).

The features for 6X00 cards can be found on the purevideo link. I'll let you play with that if you still want or already own a 6X00 card. Many features are missing on some 6X00 cards. The 6600 is still a good choice though.

In general, the only things missing on the 6 series are HD film detection, and on the AGP varients, H.264 accelleration.

Good work on the investigaiton though

[Kirby]

Maybe some comments about Nvidia SLI as well? Or the newer single SLI cards like the 7950? If some of those features are tied to 3D GPU power, is there any advantage to be gained with SLI? And also, maybe some notes or comments about possible card compatibility with the new PureVideo HD?

[GTwannabe]

A big advantage of PureVideo over AVIVO is that PureVideo can be used with any DX9-capable GPU. AVIVO only runs on the Radeon x1x series.

[blade]

Great posts, I've just finished a lot of research on the subject myself and your post would have saved me a lot of time and effort if it had been made a few days sooner.

Originally Posted by autoboy

Despite the clockspeed being the most important part of Purevideo, there are some Purevideo functions that are not available on cards that should be able to use them IMO. A list of Nvidia cards showing the purevideo funcitons they support can be found here.
Explanations of features can be found here.

I would like to say you can pretty much throw Nvidia's feature chart out the window. I refer people to it all the time, but in reality you may or may not get the features and they may be removed at any time with future driver releases.

WMV9 acceleration was a feature of the 6xxx agp cards, but has been removed with more recent drivers. Also it seems h264 acceleration on the 6xxx agp cards is currently only possible with a SSE2 capable CPU for some reason.

While definitely true, that doesn't come close to telling the full story. First, there's the issue of different chips, I'm sure GPU speed scales with clockspeed on a single GPU, but I don't see any evidence to show that 350MHz on X GPU is equal to 350MHz on Y GPU. It may be, I don't know.

I've wondered this as well, but haven't seen any testing on the subject.

And one last thing, is the tests in that article seem only to relate to decode accelleration, it wouldn't/doesn't surprise me that the decode accelleration is done in the 2D part of the GPU, but what about deinterlacing? Deinterlacing is, I believe, done in the 3D pipeline. This is most clearly evidenced by the different deinterlace modes available depending on renderer chosen, ie:[list][*]Overlay or VMR 7 (ie "default")

I've also heard that deinterlacing is done in the 3d pipeline.

Maybe some comments about Nvidia SLI as well? Or the newer single SLI cards like the 7950? If some of those features are tied to 3D GPU power, is there any advantage to be gained with SLI?

Everything I've seen says SLI isn't used in anyway.

[blade]

How can you tell if a card is doing IVTC and bad edit detection? I have a 6200 agp that supposedly doesn't do IVTC or bad edit detection; however, when I use smart it does 24 fps for film and 60 for video and it adjusts itself for mixed content just like my 6600gt does. Does that mean it's using those features or is that something entirely different?

[ToxMox]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Yup, I'm still waiting for a 7600GT with passive cooling before I upgrade my HTPC.

What about this Gigabyte:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814125025

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by blade

Everything I've seen says SLI isn't used in anyway.

Yup, same as I have heard. I basically was just offering suggestions as to what additional content could be useful, since we seem to be making a FAQ here (without actually providing the answers, I know, I suck!)

[autoboy]

Wow, ok, lots of responses. Stanger89, I'll try to address each response. You seem to have a lot of knowledge here and can help me make this thread better.

As much of an advocate for HTPCs as I am, I don't think I believe this. When you start talking $3000 for a DVD player, you must consider the Denon 5910, which is powered by the Realta HQV chip, probably the only chip which can manage a perfect score on HQV Benchmark DVD. I'd place the Genum VXP on the same level as the HQV, but with different strengths.

While far closer than previously, nothing on the PC side can match the Realta HQV or Genum VXP processors.

I have no experience with $3000 DVD players. There are however, $3000 DVD players that perform worse than either video card so my statement still stands. I never stated it was better than ALL $3000 DVD players. I just thought it would be nice to throw that in because it helps my justify the huge amount of money I have spent on this stupid thing.

While definitely true, that doesn't come close to telling the full story. First, there's the issue of different chips, I'm sure GPU speed scales with clockspeed on a single GPU, but I don't see any evidence to show that 350MHz on X GPU is equal to 350MHz on Y GPU. It may be, I don't know.

But beyond that, there is more, specifically VMR9. All the best playback softwares out there today use VMR9 for rendering video, and VMR9 performance most certainly is affected by GPU (3D) power, as VMR9 uses D3D to render video, basically as a texture on polygons.

And one last thing, is the tests in that article seem only to relate to decode accelleration, it wouldn't/doesn't surprise me that the decode accelleration is done in the 2D part of the GPU, but what about deinterlacing? Deinterlacing is, I believe, done in the 3D pipeline. This is most clearly evidenced by the different deinterlace modes available depending on renderer chosen, ie:[list][*]Overlay or VMR 7 (ie "default")

This was the thing that I was most interested in. I wanted to be able to ensure that my cheapo 7300LE would be able to perform the complex VMR9 rendering for HD. I put most of my effort into finding a good source on this. No source really stated this clearly. The best source i found was the one I linked for purevideo HD. This article does not make it clear whether or not VMR9 is linked to clockspeed or pipelines. 1080p video is not deinterlaced so this is probably not a good source for this. You may be right that VMR9 is done in the pipelines. However, it seems that all these cards can handle 1080i HD video and spacial temporal deinterlacing with the exception of the 6150. The 6150 has only two pipelines while the 7300LE has four. This could explain why the 6150 is not capable of more complex alogorithms. This could also be the case for inverse telecine. The 7600GS has the same number of pipelines as the 7600GT but 100mhz lower clockspeed so the inverse telecine may require lots of horsepower. I like my conspiracy theory better though . Really, as long as the card has enough power to do the VMR9 for 1080i then who cares how fast it is. We start to get into the my cpu runs cooler than yours arguement. Who the hell cares? My cpu is stable at 55C. However, it does matter how much acceleration you have for h.264 becuase it may allow you to do more with your cpu or allow you to run a slower cpu like mine.

So since these cards all all capable of rendering HD video, it comes down to features which my post tried to address. Maybe I will make it more clear what I mean by "speed."

Judging by the comments here, it seems like the 6150 can barely get by, many have trouble with it, especially when trying to run VMR9 (again, 3D power).

My 6150 has no problems with 1080i video scaled to my 1440x900 monitor. As far as VMR9 power goes, it can handle it no problem. My 5200 can certainly not handle 1080i in VRM9. Some of the more advanced features that may or may not be done by the pipelines are the question here. The 6150 does very well with video acceleration though. at 475mhz it is better than my 7300LE stock (except I overclocked my 7300LE to 525mhz to find out what the improvements where)

In general, the only things missing on the 6 series are HD film detection, and on the AGP varients, H.264 accelleration.

No, if you look at the charts the 6X00 series is all over the map for purevideo support. The video processor on the 6800 series was broken so it did not support H.264. People have been reporting that the 6600 has also been having other problems with some purevideo features. I am not familiar with it though.

That's one thing I've wondered, I've never seen Film Detection/IVTC/etc mentioned in the AVIVO documents... Is it really there, or does AVIVO just deinterlace everything?

There is really nothing that I found that shows a good comparison for AVIVO like the one I linked for Nvidia. This is a big oversite IMO because I really could not find enough information on what features the X1300 or X1600 supported. I did not consider buying them because of this.

[autoboy]

Ok, changed a bunch of stuff to make it less opinion and more fact. Added a few things from the suggestions.

[bcjenkins]

Originally Posted by ToxMox

What about this Gigabyte:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814125025

http://www6.tomshardware.com/2006/06...cs_card_quiet/

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by blade

How can you tell if a card is doing IVTC and bad edit detection?

The easiest way is to look at the decoder properties while you're watching an encoded-as-video clip (like a Sage recording). If it displays Film at least some of the time, you're getting IVTC, if it's always video you're not.

however, when I use smart it does 24 fps for film and 60 for video and it adjusts itself for mixed content just like my 6600gt does. Does that mean it's using those features or is that something entirely different?

Depends on what context you're talking in, in the case of most DVDs, they're usually film, and flagged as such, thus any flag-reading coded will properly detect them as film.

IVTC comes into play when you've got film content stored in video.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by autoboy

I have no experience with $3000 DVD players. There are however, $3000 DVD players that perform worse than either video card so my statement still stands. I never stated it was better than ALL $3000 DVD players. I just thought it would be nice to throw that in because it helps my justify the huge amount of money I have spent on this stupid thing.

I don't have direct experience either, and yes, there are clunkers out there at every pricerange, but if we're going to use "$3000 DVD players" as a benchmark, I think it only fair to consider/use players that actually performa at the appropriate level. If you're dropping $3k on a DVD player, it better be special, today, that means HQV or VXP quality.

My 6150 has no problems with 1080i video scaled to my 1440x900 monitor. As far as VMR9 power goes, it can handle it no problem.[/QUOTE]

I don't think that's really a high enough resolution to cause problems, most of the people reporting problems with HD on a 6150 were running higher resolutions. 1080p seems to be all but impossible on a 6150, and supposedly it gives 6600 (non-GTs) trouble as well. Seems like you need a 6600GT or better to do HD at 1080p.

No, if you look at the charts the 6X00 series is all over the map for purevideo support. The video processor on the 6800 series was broken so it did not support H.264. People have been reporting that the 6600 has also been having other problems with some purevideo features. I am not familiar with it though.

The PCIe 6 series is pretty consistent, lacking only HD film detection. The AGP 6 series is pretty consistent as well, lacking HD IVTC and H.264 accelleration. Only exceptions are the 6800's which have screwed WMV accelleration, and the low-end cards that lack HD adaptive deinterlacing.

[peternm22]

The Purevideo chart on NVidia's website only has the 7600GS and 7600GT listed under PCIe, and not under AGP. Would the AGP versions of these cards support the same features as their PCIe counterparts?

Thanks.

-Peter

[autoboy]

Added information about 6150 1080p problems. I remember reading awhile back that the 6150 was not rated for 1080p. I had heard some good stories that it was working and assumed it was ok. The problems most people appear to have is with blocky video overlaying the picture with the latest drivers. I had this problem too and the MSI drivers fixed my problem. I've not heard other things about it. However, i'm not a regular poster here so I don't have that much experience with it. I AM having problems with my Dualtv and fusion card though. If someone wants to help me I would be very happy. The thread is herehttp://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20139

[autoboy]

Originally Posted by peternm22

The Purevideo chart on NVidia's website only has the 7600GS and 7600GT listed under PCIe, and not under AGP. Would the AGP versions of these cards support the same features as their PCIe counterparts?

Thanks.

-Peter

That's a good question. I'm not sure if there were supposed to be official AGP versions of those cards. I would assume that they support the same features, but becuase they are not listed here, I don't know. Appartently, according to Sphere at HTPCnews.com, this list is not well updated.

[blade]

Originally Posted by stanger89

The easiest way is to look at the decoder properties while you're watching an encoded-as-video clip (like a Sage recording). If it displays Film at least some of the time, you're getting IVTC, if it's always video you're not.

That's what I thought, but wanted to be certain. I only have SD Sage recordings so it appears my 6200 agp card is doing bad edit and IVTC even though it's not listed as a feature.

The AGP 6 series is pretty consistent as well, lacking HD IVTC and H.264 accelleration. Only exceptions are the 6800's which have screwed WMV accelleration, and the low-end cards that lack HD adaptive deinterlacing.

Nvidia broke (or removed) WMV9 acceleration for the 6600gt agp with one of their driver updates and removed it from the feature chart instead of fixing it. I don't know if any of the AGP cards have WMV9 acceleration anymore. It's no longer listed as a feature for any of them on the chart.

That's a good question. I'm not sure if there were supposed to be official AGP versions of those cards. I would assume that they support the same features, but becuase they are not listed here, I don't know. Appartently, according to Sphere at HTPCnews.com, this list is not well updated.

The list is wrong on so many counts I believe the only way to know is for users to confirm whether the features work or not. Even then you never know what will happen with the next driver release.

[Kirby]

one other point that should be made I think, Nvidia's numbering system does not increment based on which cards are better. Example, my 7800GTX sounds like it should be better than a 7600GT. In fact, mine has a core clock of 460mhz, 7600GT has 560mhz. I'm sure that there are more features that are like this, like pipelines and whatnot, that just from a new user's standpoint wouldnt be obvious based on model numbers.

So who has tried the 7600gt passive cooling? How's it doing for you?

[lobosrul]

Originally Posted by Kirby

one other point that should be made I think, Nvidia's numbering system does not increment based on which cards are better. Example, my 7800GTX sounds like it should be better than a 7600GT. In fact, mine has a core clock of 460mhz, 7600GT has 560mhz. I'm sure that there are more features that are like this, like pipelines and whatnot, that just from a new user's standpoint wouldnt be obvious based on model numbers.

So who has tried the 7600gt passive cooling? How's it doing for you?

Ehh... a 7800GTX smokes a 7600GT.

I remember when those babies came out last summer ('05) they were a giant leap forward in video card speed.

If you dont belive me: http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphi...=529&chart=231

Look for the two lines in blue.

Edit: my bad sort of (the GTX selected above is a 512MB OC'd modeled). See this chart: http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphi...=529&chart=231 Still much higher though. And yes the clock speed of the GTX is lower, it has way more pipelines though im sure.