Beware V 2.05 Wireless Extender

[John Colburn]

Let me start by stating that I generlly like what I bought, it is doing most of what I expected it to do (replace the Ultimate TV receivers I had been using, and eliminate monthly fees.) , but I am sour on technical support.

The $400 I paid to Sage for my components is not a lot of money, but face it, this is not a “Heath Kit” world (the older persons here will know that name). This is a consumer product world, where viewers are challenged by being able to set the correct time on the VCR. Modifying a PC, perhaps raises the bar a little for customer IQ, but the system one purchases must be easily implemented if the vendor wants testimonial-induced sales.

In my opinion, the documentation is not as to the point as it should be, the software is buggy and frequently does different things on separate boots (more features may appear), and the sales order staff is out of touch with currently-shipping technology. (Or the variations that may occur in service).

Everyone wants to purchase the latest and greatest debugged system, but they want product support personnel to be familiar with everything and to be able to get things working quickly.

As a designer, manufacturer, and marketeer of electronic hardware and PC software that works with the hardware, I appreciate the difficulty of keeping manuals up-to-date, and of the cost of technical support, particularly as a product evolves.

A quick-start, to the point, settings and hookup guide is essential and sorely missing. Moreover sales staff should know how to troubleshoot, without the customer relying on other customers to train/advise him.

In my case, I wanted to use my old Windows 98 server and was told it would work (email inquiry). I bought. However, the Sage bundle was supplied with a CD containing drivers for the dual tuner that are not recognized under W98. A download supplied by Sage, still was not recognized by W98. I had to upgrade to Windows XP. XP then would not work with my old CD drives, so I had to purchase two new drives. Total unanticipated cost = $327 more than the $400 planned. (Still having other things to do to fix old PC to do its old work as well)

Then the wireless MVP (mfgr by Hauppage, purported as a Sage product) was supplied with a software CD, which I attempted to install. It would not install and I was berated by Sage email for trying to use it at all. I was advised to cease trying as the Hauppagaue software was not used at all. If a CD is not relevant, then don’t ship it to a customer.

The MVP simply would not connect (V 2.05) and no Sage instructions helped make it work, even other on-line purchasers offered no experience).
I tried opening ports in the Windows firewall as the Sage manual suggests, and they would not work. Finally, in desperation, I referred to the Hauppage manual (about their software) which states the wireless MVP device will not work with an active XP firewall.

Kill the server XP firewall and it works, but you live day by day without security. This is the price of wanting a wireless MVP for your Sage system.

What I have now works, in its still flawed fashion. It could be done differently by Sage, but Sage doesn’t seem to care about customer observations and really doesn’t care if the customer is satisfied with his experience.

John
Texas

[blade]

Originally Posted by John Colburn

Kill the server XP firewall and it works, but you live day by day without security. This is the price of wanting a wireless MVP for your Sage system.

Many people are running the MVP with the XP firewall. Just because you couldn't get your particular setup configured properly doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Also there are many free 3rd party firewalls that are far superior to windows built in firewall. I always replace the generic windows firewall with something better anyway.

[bcjenkins]

Originally Posted by John Colburn

Kill the server XP firewall and it works, but you live day by day without security. This is the price of wanting a wireless MVP for your Sage system.

Hi John,

You should be able to get this to work. IIRC the documentation leaves out port 68 (UDP) for TFTP loading, but it has been a while since I have had a server running a firewall. Since my home network is protected by a hardware firewall to the internet, and I don't let anyone come plug into my network, I am comfortable with this arrangement. I can try this out in a week or so when I am back at home if you haven't figured it out by then.

HIH

B

EDIT --

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...19&postcount=2

I don't think I have ever sent that into SageTV Support though.. I am not sure if it is valid any longer.

[scoful]

It's true, SageTV is not an appliance like Tivo (or a Toaster for that matter). That being said, and from reviewing the forums (with any software product, I always look at end user information to balance out marketing) it should be relatively easy to conclude that beyond the default installation on a single computer, SageTV's advanced setups are for advanced users. This is the price we pay for having the flexibility of being able to use a variety of different hardware and OS combinations. I looked at several other options before investing in SageTV, but the end user community support and open development architecture is what sold me. I would never ask my wife to set up any advanced features, much less a client PC or MVP - she could not do it. But, she does appreciate the functionality of all of the customizations I have set up. I believe the up front investment is miniscule compared to the value I have recieved.
As far as support - the Sage guys have always answered my emails faster or as fast as any other software vendor I have used, and the people on the forums are fantastic.

[Fluffdaddy]

Originally Posted by John Colburn

Then the wireless MVP (mfgr by Hauppage, purported as a Sage product) was supplied with a software CD, which I attempted to install. It would not install and I was berated by Sage email for trying to use it at all. I was advised to cease trying as the Hauppagaue software was not used at all. If a CD is not relevant, then don’t ship it to a customer.
John
Texas

I have to agree with the above statement.

But the Bottom line is........You want plug & play buy a Tivo. I would never buy sage for my mom and dad

Ahhhh “Heath Kit” my dad and I built my first radio.......damn I'm old

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by bcjenkins

IIRC the documentation leaves out port 68 (UDP) for TFTP loading

Is that port used by the Hauppauge software?

I'm told that UDP port 68 is not used by SageTV. For the MVP, SageTV should be using the ports listed in this FAQ. Of those, 16881 was a recent addition to the list.

- Andy

[bcjenkins]

Originally Posted by Opus4

Is that port used by the Hauppauge software?

I'm told that UDP port 68 is not used by SageTV. For the MVP, SageTV should be using the ports listed in this FAQ. Of those, 16881 was a recent addition to the list.

- Andy

TFTP runs over port 68 by default. As I mentioned in my post above this was quite a while ago (January) so it is not a recent validation and I don't know if it is still current. It worked for me though when I was running a firewall.

B

[omega]

For the record, TFTP actually uses port 69 by default. UDP port 68 is assigned to bootp/dhcp (client side). The first thing an MVP does at boot is send a DHCPDISCOVER packet from 0.0.0.0:68 to 255.255.255.255:67 to determine its own IP address. So, this port is not used by SageTV itself, but if one is running DHCP on one's Sage server, it would need to be open to that server program. Much more common, however, is to run DHCP as a builtin function of a router or access point.

[mayamaniac]

Title of this thread is misleading, is there a problem with v2.05 of the MVP or is there not?

SageTV is a small company as far as I know and depends largely on this forum for support. As they grow, the official tech support has to be improved with more personel. By the way, I only know of only one tech support guy, which is George, are there any others? If not, that just demonstrated the small size of the company. They don't even have a manual. The included one is made by a forum moderator, Andy/Opus4. I don't know if Andy is employed in anyway by SageTV, but I think he did a damn good job with the manual and moderating this forum (Although, censoring and removing "D*mn the UNC Paths" is a bit absurd ).

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

They don't even have a manual. The included one is made by ...

??? For anyone confused by that contradictory statement: there is definitely a manual provided by SageTV -- it is installed with every copy of SageTV and SageTVClient, and is also available as a separate download. I'm not sure how including a manual can be considered not having a manual. It may not be absolutley perfect, but there is one.

I don't feel any need to fully explain my relationship with SageTV (the company), but the manual is certainly provided by the efforts of people at the company.

- Andy

[bcjenkins]

Originally Posted by djc78

For the record, TFTP actually uses port 69 by default. UDP port 68 is assigned to bootp/dhcp (client side). The first thing an MVP does at boot is send a DHCPDISCOVER packet from 0.0.0.0:68 to 255.255.255.255:67 to determine its own IP address. So, this port is not used by SageTV itself, but if one is running DHCP on one's Sage server, it would need to be open to that server program. Much more common, however, is to run DHCP as a builtin function of a router or access point.

Thanks for correcting me. I don't know how I screwed that one up!

[John Colburn]

At the typical risk of being assaulted in any forum with "opinions", I offer this summary of the advice provided to me, above.

A) My computer will still not work. It will not read some CD drives due to some incompatability with the old motherboard and the XP drivers, so I have lost use of the computer for anything other than web brousing and email and Sage TV. Microsoft office cannot be installed. It is new Motherboard time. My advice to those listening to my post rather than reacting to my "abuse" of Sage is -- do not try to use an "old" computer whose hardware was never considered in XP development.

B) As I stated at the outset, Sage TV has been satisfactory. I only complained about the lack of convenient access to information for setup. Now that I know George is a one-armed paper hanger in a company struggling I have a better perspective.

C) As I also stated, I am a manufacturer of software and companion hardware. And also a small company. If Sage has a full time tech support guy (George) they are doing better than we can do. We actually include setup facts from pull-down menus within our software as few end-users will pour through a manual.

As I have learned from the faithful users of Sage TV, the problems are with the end-user. He must be a techie, and if he is not, buy a TiVo and pay a fee for every room in which he desires to watch incoming content.

1) A small company should be forgiven for not including the facts in a manual that they distribute with their product.
2) A small company should rely on a user to write a manual for them, rather than invest in an organized set of facts.

I give my customers toll-free numbers for support and will answer calls anytime between 10 am and midnight CDST. True, we answer what may be considered trivial questions, but when the information is not at one's fingertips, it is a customer's last resort. A kind answer gets you testimonials.

Brusque replies on this forum do not defend, but demean Sage, so be advised that attitude makes all the difference in making a small company with a good product accepted by others who may need a helping hand.

John

www.soildoctor.com

[blade]

Just curious as to what hardware you're trying to run Sage on? I assume it must be ancient because I'm running XP on my Sage server and it's an old BX board with a celeron 366. Luckily I've never had any compatibility issues.

As for running the Pvr500 (I assume this is the dual tuner board you're talking about) on 98 I believe you must have 98 second edition. Don't know if you had it or not, but I know I've seen others running 98 without problems. Blaming Sage for the driver CD included is like blaming Newegg when you buy the card from them. Sage doesn't manufacturer the product they're just selling it. I've never gotten a computer product with an up to date driver CD included.

As you've found out Sage is for the those who want a PVR and a hobby. It's definetly not a turn key solution for the novice. With that said I was a complete noob when I started and had no problems getting up and running with the manual that is installed when I installed Sage. I'm sure if I had to run into an odd quirk it would have been a different story, but luckily it was as smooth as could be expected.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by Opus4

??? For anyone confused by that contradictory statement: there is definitely a manual provided by SageTV -- it is installed with every copy of SageTV and SageTVClient, and is also available as a separate download. I'm not sure how including a manual can be considered not having a manual. It may not be absolutley perfect, but there is one.

Sorry about that Andy, my wording on that post could have been better. What I meant was, assuming you are not employed by SageTV, that SageTV (the company) didn't write the manual themselves. Instead, as a SageTV user and forum moderator, you wrote the manual.

I don't feel any need to fully explain my relationship with SageTV (the company)

Yes, you don't need to explain your relationship, but since you never mentioned it, I'll just assume that you aren't employed by them and that your work is mostly by volunteer. And in return, the benefit is that you have access to early betas and work-in-progress info that the rest of us don't.

Anyway, all that stuff is irrevelant. The intent of my previous post was to show an example that SageTV is a small company, that is all.

Originally Posted by John Colburn

My advice to those listening to my post rather than reacting to my "abuse" of Sage is -- do not try to use an "old" computer whose hardware was never considered in XP development.

I think this is just a general rule in computing or almost any electronic equipment, it is not limited to XP or SageTV. If you use old hardware, there's always a risk that it won't work. And this is a problem not even Microsoft can fix, nevermind a small company like SageTV.

As I have learned from the faithful users of Sage TV, the problems are with the end-user. He must be a techie, and if he is not, buy a TiVo and pay a fee for every room in which he desires to watch incoming content.

Yes, and I've said it many times too on this forum, along within the review in my signature at the bottom. If you want hassle-free setup, get a Tivo or even a Microsoft MCE PC.

1) A small company should be forgiven for not including the facts in a manual that they distribute with their product.
2) A small company should rely on a user to write a manual for them, rather than invest in an organized set of facts.

There are many large companies that failed to provide those information, or provide satisfactory customer support. I think at one time or another, we all had to deal with them. SageTV suport is no where near that bad in my opinion, small company or not.

Brusque replies on this forum do not defend, but demean Sage, so be advised that attitude makes all the difference in making a small company with a good product accepted by others who may need a helping hand.

I have not seen such behaviors from the regular users here. Most are pretty rational and polite in their replies. In fact, most of the disruptive posts are from new frustrated users such as yourself. But this is not meant as an attack on you John. We've all been there when we were pulling out our hairs trying to get something to work. But this is what the user-to-user forum is for when the one-man-tech-support is too slow to respond.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

What I meant was, assuming you are not employed by SageTV, that SageTV (the company) didn't write the manual themselves. Instead, as a SageTV user and forum moderator, you wrote the manual.

Yes, you don't need to explain your relationship, but since you never mentioned it, I'll just assume that you aren't employed by them and that your work is mostly by volunteer. And in return, the benefit is that you have access to early betas and work-in-progress info that the rest of us don't.

I usually advise against making assumptions... especially since I already said that the manual is provided by the folks at SageTV. Have fun with any assumptions based on that comment.

- Andy

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by Opus4

I usually advise against making assumptions... especially since I already said that the manual is provided by the folks at SageTV. Have fun with any assumptions based on that comment.

- Andy

Good, you should get paid for your work here. I'm glad.

[Opus4]

You know what... I'm a bit of a private person, but I just realized that this could be confusing to new people on the forum, who might wonder what is going on. So...

I thought it was obvious that I work for SageTV in some manner, based on things that have been posted here & there. The manual & forum administration were never volunteer projects & aren't the only things I do for them. I just don't care to go into what my job description might be, since that isn't something that needs to be spelled out on the forum.

- Andy