New LCD, Plasma, Projection TV??? Which one?

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by sleonard

I have a 3 1/2 year old Samsung DLP. The rating of the lamp was 3000 hrs if I remember correctly. Last time I checked (Jan. 06) it had 12000+ hrs and it is still going strong today. I am beginning to wonder if it will ever go bad!

Are you sure it's 12,000+ hours? Man, if that's so you should send that thing to the Smithsonian! That's like 12hrs/day for almost 3 years, like EVERY DAY. Sage is good, but dang! You are one "TV-aholic"!

Fwiw, my old CRT projector had wrapped up 38,000 hours on the clock before I finally sent it to pasture. It had been used (prior to my buying it) in a military flight simulator.

-PGPfan

[sleonard]

Ok, I lied just a little bit. I just checked and the lamp life is listed at 11,308 hrs after 3 1/2 years. I bought it the Christmas before Sage 2.0 came out (May 2003 I think and that puts the purchase at Dec. 2002) It's an HLN437W and it hadn't been on the market very long when I bought it.

I use it as my computer monitor as well as for watching TV via Sage but that still works out to ~9 hours a day. OMG, I've gotta find something else to do with my time!

[cummings66]

In regards to color shift, yes I mean the greyscale changes and not convergence drift.

I am picky about things and notice when somethings not right, while you can replace one tube IMO if you're fussy about things you'll notice the other tubes look soft in comparison. Examine fine details and writing for example and you can tell it's soft on the other two guns, especially on an HD set.

Of course when I get to see a TV, RPTV or DLP it's usually because they're in pretty sad shape and it's my job to put it back to working condition, hopefully as good as it was when new. The issue is that I see new every day and when an older product comes in for repair I can compare it to new and tell how far it's drifted. On the newer RPTV's with 16x9 tubes I have seen many phosphor burns due to displaying a 4x3 picture on it for the majority of the time, in fact I keep one of the old ones on my bench to show people. Even though the sets are supposed to prevent burns by using a grey bar on the edge of the 4x3 pic it does not work well over time. I have seen tubes where when you show a 16x9 cloud scene you have different tints where it crosses the 4x3 boundary. Normally damage like this is considered abuse and not covered by warranty, yet I've never had an issue getting it fixed under warranty for some reason.

You have got to treat a tube nicely now a days, or they remember. These things are based on my experience dealing with thousands of broken sets during my career, not a small handful.

For what it's worth, every thing you've said is true and I've seen it occur to back up what you're saying, but what I said also holds true for many more IME over the decades.

Every technology has benefits and drawbacks, I too look forwards to the LED lamps, gonna be great for us.

[mike1961]

Regarding your post #23 - I'm looking for a TV for downstairs and I think plasma may just be out because unlike upstairs, the downstairs one will be used for video games as well as TV. Also, since I have the kids using the downstairs TV they may just leave it on the guide, main menu or some video game. And even though Sage may have a screen saver, the video games can cause burn in. So - I'm thinking LCD is probably the best way to go (if I can find a 55"). Otherwise, I may have to settle for a DLP but is there a burn in with DLP? I also seem to notice the picture is not as bright and also really dark when looking at it from the side.

Any thoughts on what to get (DLP, LCD)?

Last - does anyone have a recommendation for how far back one should be given the size of the TV? I saw a new Samsung DLP 1080p at Costco for $3800 which seems like an excellent price for a 67" TV. But, my wife says no. She says it's too big and the problem she has heard is when you are too close, your eyes can't grasp the entire picture and you are moving them constantly to view different parts of the screen rather than the entire screen at once which makes sense. But, what is the rule of thumb for "how far back" given the size of the screen?

Thanks,
Mike

[PGPfan]

If anything, a DLP set 'should' be brighter than a comparable LCD machine. The whole principle of a DLP is reflecting light - very little loss, whereas an LCD 'filters' the light through polarization - an inherent loss. LCD's are also susceptable to 'burn-in' but to a much lesser degree than Plasma or CRT. The DLP should have no 'burn-in' to speak of.

As for distance from screen, IMHO it's more of a personal preference. I suspect that in reality there will be very little "eye movement" trying to follow screen activity, you just aren't getting THAT BIG of a screen. Maybe on 8+ foot screen, but not in any size that RPTV's come in.

-PGPfan

[Polypro]

http://www.myhometheater.homestead.c...alculator.html

I recommend LCD...stupid simple to set up for HTPC use with 1280x720 or 1920x1080. Even 1366(68)x768 is pretty simple.

P

[mike1961]

PolyPro - I guess where I'm confused is LCD to me is much brighter than just about anything. By LCD I'm thinking of computer monitors that might be anywhere from (on average 17", 19" and 21" monitors although I have see them at 15 and 24). The computer VGA monitors to me put out far more light and are clear from any angle. Maybe I'm confusing the terms since by computer monitors I'm just referring to "flat panel displays" but they are LCD. All the DLP's I've seen lose light when viewed from an angle. I'll check out the links you posted.

Thanks,
Mike

[cummings66]

Generally a 3.3 x screen height (or 81" distance for a 50" set) is used. The SMPTE spec is 30 deg viewing angle and the THX spec is for a 26-36 deg viewing angle (or 68.4" to 96.3" distance for a 50" set).

Regarding DLP being dimmer than LCD, check how they set it up. You'll find it common in stores to misadjust a TV in order to sell the one they're paying money on. There is absolutely no reason the LCD should have been brighter than the DLP so I'd guess they tweaked them. Check with other stores as well.

DLP can not be burned, but you will use more Lamps over time, might suffer rainbow effects as well. I see them, but not so much anymore. If you can watch it in a darkened room and make sure there are scenes of bright white against black to see if you notice the effect. It drives some people crazy.

In the end go with what you think looks best, but be sure they didn't tweak them to sell you on a model.

[dfitz43]

Interesting thread, I thought I'd post my subjective experience.

I started in 2003 with an HLN generation 50" Sammy DLP. At the time, I thought it was a spectacular image, particularly with live sporting events in 720p (NR for that set). Not to mention, friends were amazed at the 50" desktop and just thought it was cool. However, I did not get anywhere near the 12,000 hr bulb life that sleonard experienced. My set started to darken noticeably around 3000 hrs, and I replaced the lamp at about 3500 hrs (somewhat on the low side, but not radically atypical). Replacing the bulb restored the image (as expected) to the original brightness. So, overall, my DLP has been a great set. The only downsides I've noticed are that it's washed out in direct sunlight and the theoretical issues of rainbows (though I've never had this problem). DLP technology has advanced a lot in three years, with 1080p chips, many-segment color wheels, a new LED backlit version that has basically lifetime bulb life and no colorwheel at all. Definitely the technology is maturing and my opinion is that most non-hardcore videophiles would be impressed with a properly set up full-resolution HD image on current gen DLP.

There's definitely a vocal segment that argues that nothing currently available approaches a meticulously converged CRT FP. I'm not going to begin to argue the point, b/c I've never seen a really great CRT FP setup myself, so I really have no experience there. I could believe that this is true, but as many point out, you have to really want that last 0.1% of performance in terms of regular maintenance of the set, likely professional calibration, etc. Moreover, CRT doesn't make a lot of sense to me if you're ever multi-tasking with a little light surfing/email/desktop as well as Sage, etc, as I suspect most of us probably do around here. Much more convenient with a digital technology.

Anyway, once I got my whole house wired and the Sage Server/Client thing configured, I convinced my wife that it would be really great to be able to access Sage in the bedroom and that we should go for a flat panel.

Started with the Westinghouse 42" 1080p Westinghouse, as it was a pretty phenomenal deal for 1080p at the time (4 months or so ago). I was just never satisfied with the image. There's an extensive thread on avs on this monitor and some QC issues, and my, like many, had a subtle but annoying vertical banding (uneven backlighting) issues. Back it went.

After some more research, I finally decided to go with the Panasonic 50PHD8UK for the bedroom. Honestly, I'm not trying to advocate plasma as a panacea for everyone here, but in my situation, it has been the best A/V purchase I've ever made.

There is just an amazing depth and clarity to the image, and a three-dimensionality that I never saw with my DLP. I basically can't watch the DLP anymore. Seriously, I was somewhat of a skeptic prior to getting the plasma, thinking, it's not really going to be any better than my DLP.

It's just amazing. Even my wife immediately commented on the superiority of the plasma image, and she's (trust me here) not one to notice these things. (Though it's quite astonishing the subtle details in her shoe purchases that I'm expected to be exhilated by, hmm...)

A previous poster commented on plasma not being suited to gaming. I agree that for hard-core (8 hrs+) it may be an issue, but for a few hrs at a time, I think burn-in is basically not an issue. The current generation Panasonic plasma sets state the burn-in is at the level of CRT (possible, but you have to try pretty hard).

Anyway, just my quick observations, if it helps the OP at all. I actually think it's pretty hard to go wrong with many of the current technologies, but a great deal depends on your usage patterns. I will say don't discount plasma until you've seen a nicely setup one, though. Pretty outstanding.

cheers,
Dave

[mike1961]

Dave - I agree that the look of Plasma is outstanding. I got a 42" Maxent from Costco for upstairs for about $1500 and it looks just great. I was just concerned about the burn in playing video games. They certainly would not play them that often and not more than a few hours at a time but I'm just not sure about burn in. On the other hand, with DLP, I don't think the picture is as crisp or as bright as plasma and with plasma yuou don't have to change the lamp. I'm still researching while watching prices just drop through the floor.

Thanks,
Mike

[PGPfan]

Hi Guys,

I guess I'm that "vocal segment" that dfritz43 spoke about. Anyhow, I just thought it might be appropriate to explain my projector for the sake of referrence. First off, my DLP experience comes from owning an NEC LT-150 (yes, a bit long in the tooth but legendary in it's day) and it was my first foray into 'real home theater' (projection baby!!!). While it did blow me away, I succumbed (sp?) to the dreaded rainbow effect. Headaches after few hours, and oddly enough the rainbows were especially noticable during 'credits' at the end of programs (anyone else noticed this?).

I had to get another projector and opened my mind and went looking. I'd seen CRT projectors before (smokey bars, etc.) and was never really impressed, yet they always seemed to be used at the higher end demo's at CES (although not as common there anymore) and people rave about them at avs forum. I headed there and started poking around the CRT projector forums. Boy, was I in for an education!

Fact: These things are expensive - new they go for between $20,000 - $45,000
Fact: They are huge, by comparison to my little NEC. (My current projector is roughly 2' wide x 3' long, x 1' thick.
Fact: They are heavy (mine is about 165 lbs.)

How do they look if properly setup? Well, in a word-PERFECT! (It should for that kind of money!) They have contrast, 3D depth, etc. like nothing I'd ever seen (still haven't seen as good, but digitals are closing in).

The question became, how can I afford one? Well, there-in lies a little secret: rebuilt projectors! What? Well, there are several guys on the forums at avs that refurbish/rebuild CRT projectors and re-sell them (fully waranteed) for less than a fraction of their new price. (think $750-$2500)

I took the gamble on one from a technician in Vancouver, Canada. Best purchase I've EVER made. Stands behind it for life, incredible picture, easy to use (the secret is in the install), and unobtrusive. Huh, unobtrusive? Yep, I hang it upside down from the ceiling. You can't notice it unless you look for it (well, maybe a little but still not bad at all). I only have to maintain it (set convergence, etc.) once every 6 months or so. It takes a few hours to do, but is actually kind of fun - in a theraputic sort of way.

Anyhow, this has been a long enough post but I just thought you guys might be interested to hear of my experience.

-PGPfan

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by PGPfan

...and oddly enough the rainbows were especially noticable during 'credits' at the end of programs (anyone else noticed this?).

Rainbows seem to be a function of (or influenced by) contrast, the higher the contrast, the more readilly they appear. That's one reason why credits can be worse, they're white on black (usually) which is the highest contrast situation, plus you end up looking around the screen more, which doesn't help.

Plus isn't the LT150 a 1x machine? How many segments?

Standard practice seems to be at least 4x with 6-8segment wheels today.

How do they look if properly setup? Well, in a word-PERFECT! (It should for that kind of money!) They have contrast, 3D depth, etc. like nothing I'd ever seen (still haven't seen as good, but digitals are closing in).

Of course to get that "perfection" you have to have a completly light controlled room, because they don't put out near the lumens of the digitals.

Also, you have to consider what's involved in getting, and keeping a CRT "properly" setup. With a digital, it's basically plug it in and run DVE/AVIA/etc. With a CRT, you have to focus and converge it.

CRTs are great, but like all things in life, nothing is free.

FWIW, one of the latest "stars" in the AVS Forum PJ universe is the Mitsubishi WD2000U, on the opposite end of the spectrum from a CRT, it's truely a light canon, 3000lumens, perfect for huge screens or ambient light conditions.

[Menehune]

I remember installing and setting up an old Sony 300 lumen CRT projector at work. After two hours and about 5000 adjustments to the 1000 adjustment knobs, I finally got a decent picture only to bump the focus knob and have to start all over again

Dang projector lasted forever though. I think it was hanging in the classroom for close to 10 years before it got replaced with a 2000 lumen LCD projector. I never got around to seeing if the old projection TVs that were replaced with LCD projectors could be made into CRT projectors

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Rainbows seem to be a function of (or influenced by) contrast, the higher the contrast, the more readilly they appear. That's one reason why credits can be worse, they're white on black (usually) which is the highest contrast situation, plus you end up looking around the screen more, which doesn't help.

Plus isn't the LT150 a 1x machine? How many segments?.

As I recall, I 'think' it's a 2x 4 segment, but I could easily (read likely) be wrong.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Standard practice seems to be at least 4x with 6-8segment wheels today.

That's good to hear. Do you see any rainbows now? That was always the deal breaker for me, a 3-chip model was a must.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Of course to get that "perfection" you have to have a completly light controlled room, because they don't put out near the lumens of the digitals.

Total light control isn't always necessary. It certainly is the 'easy way', but you can use a "torus" screen and it is easily viewable in the day time. Alas, most people aren't familiar with the torus screens, nor have they seen them personally but the DO work well.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Also, you have to consider what's involved in getting, and keeping a CRT "properly" setup. With a digital, it's basically plug it in and run DVE/AVIA/etc. With a CRT, you have to focus and converge it.

I think this is the biggest myth that most people have heard. "Getting" a CRT properly setup is relatively easy. It just entails making SURE that your projector is perfectly squared to the screen, and of correct height for the type of screen you use (reflective, retro-reflective, etc.). Once this is done and you do initial convergence it will be good for the next 6 months or so.
It's only when you have to use extreme settings in your digital convergence controls to compensate for poor mechanical alignment (like having to 'force' a keystone correction) that you make the electronics work too hard and they will drift. Sadly, most people (out of ignorance) accept the inferior convergence as being a problem with CRT projectors when in reality it is with the installation.

Keep in mind, things like keystone are still a problem with a digital projector. You give up resolution to get keystone correction on a digital. It still needs to be properly setup, but it doesn't get easier than with a digital.

-PGPfan

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by Menehune

I remember installing and setting up an old Sony 300 lumen CRT projector at work. After two hours and about 5000 adjustments to the 1000 adjustment knobs, I finally got a decent picture only to bump the focus knob and have to start all over again

Dang projector lasted forever though. I think it was hanging in the classroom for close to 10 years before it got replaced with a 2000 lumen LCD projector. I never got around to seeing if the old projection TVs that were replaced with LCD projectors could be made into CRT projectors

Sony 300 lumen set? Old one, that's for sure. Back in the analog days, it was such a hassle to operate, however the modern machines are all digital in the adjustments and they 'walk you through' setup themselves. It really made a night and day difference in working with them.

-PGPfan

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by PGPfan

As I recall, I 'think' it's a 2x 4 segment, but I could easily (read likely) be wrong.

Sounds reasonable, a 2x RGBW wheel. I know my Tosh is a 4x RGBRGB wheel, and the newer/better ones at an extra green segment to help with low level dithering.

That's good to hear. Do you see any rainbows now? That was always the deal breaker for me, a 3-chip model was a must.

Whether I see them or not really means nothing to you Of course I do see them from time to time, but they've never bothered me, not in the headache/sickness way. This is my first DLP, probably won't be my last, and I think they've come a long way.

I think this is the biggest myth that most people have heard. "Getting" a CRT properly setup is relatively easy. It just entails making SURE that your projector is perfectly squared to the screen, and of correct height for the type of screen you use (reflective, retro-reflective, etc.).

That's essential with any projector, at least if PQ is a primary concern.

Once this is done and you do initial convergence it will be good for the next 6 months or so.
It's only when you have to use extreme settings in your digital convergence controls to compensate for poor mechanical alignment (like having to 'force' a keystone correction) that you make the electronics work too hard and they will drift. Sadly, most people (out of ignorance) accept the inferior convergence as being a problem with CRT projectors when in reality it is with the installation.

Haven't had the pleasure of spending any time with a CRT FP, only our CRT RP, and I'm definitely not happy with it's convergence/focus.

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Haven't had the pleasure of spending any time with a CRT FP, only our CRT RP, and I'm definitely not happy with it's convergence/focus.

I'm not surprised at all that you've had trouble with a CRT RP. They all use short throw lenses so they can fit the light path inside a cabinet. ANY short throw lens (be it photography or projection) introduces all sorts of optical distortion. By design they have to run the electronics too hard to correct this, hence the drift and subsequently the poor reputation.

I hope some day you do get to see a FP CRT in action. I bet you'd like it quite a bit

-PGPfan