New LCD, Plasma, Projection TV??? Which one?

[steingra]

Well I am just wondering what kind of experience people have with different kinds of TV's lately? The prices seems to be dropping on the larger tv's and someday within the next 6 or 9 months I would like to purchase a 50,52, 56" HDTV.

I just dont know which ones to consider and which ones to avoid. And is there a better size to consider for technological reasons vs just pure size.

There are a lot of brands and a lot of choices. When I look at the larger samsung LCD models vs Sony models (at circuit city) the samsungs looks brighter and crisper, and I liked the smaller footprint around the outside of the screen (there were no speakers, etc, just mostly the frame of the TV). Since I will plan a separate surround sound system.

I did notice that several of them claimed to support 1080p at the top end.

I am in no hurry to do this, because I wanted to get much more educated on the subject first. So any comments or suggestions are appreciated.

If there is another thread I didnt see, about this topic, feel free to move me there.

Thanks

[cummings66]

While I won't tell you exactly what to buy, I will point you out.

First if it's in your budget a 1080p will be best as it gives a very nice picture compared to the 720p based sets out there.

Stay away from RCA of any model. Toshiba is good as far as I can tell. I don't have personal experience with other brands as far as repairing them.

You might consider a projector if you've got the room, you can get a much larger picture and enjoy a more movie like experience.

Personally I like DLP technology, dislike LCD based displays and find Plasma to be OK, but rather bright in a dark room. So, given the choice here's the way I'd go when looking at large TVs. DLP, Plasma, CRT and LCD. Of course a DLP projector is actually what I like best.

[Mark SS]

www.avforums.com or www.avsforums.com would be a good place to start for reviews and advice.

[JUC]

definately visit AVS forums--and be prepared to spend hours of your time reading! Great information though. I went through the same thing last fall. Bought a Sony LCD rear projection but returned it because it just didn't have the 'pop' I was looking for. And--replacement bulbs are around $200 each. I ended up with a Toshiba Plasma and absolutely love it. But--models varry by year and I wouldn't look at any new 2006 Toshiba models--they are outsourced to Orion so the quality went down apparently. Panasonics and Pioneers are always a good bet (Pioneers being great but $$$). This year's samsung models are good as well compared to last years.
Can't really provide much information on LCD's unfortunately but i hope this helps,
JUC

[cummings66]

Not everything Toshiba is outsourced to Orion for what it's worth. Most likely they're doing like some other manufacturers and outsourcing the smaller no profit stuff.

They can't build this stuff for what WalMart wants to sell it for so they let small peas build the cheap stuff. The high end gear is not outsourced in most cases except for RCA and the HD-DVD player they've got.

[PGPfan]

First, I'd decide whether you want projection or not. Will this be in a light controlled room (home theater?, or living room environment?)?

Second, be aware that ALL 'bulb based' display devices (LCD, DLP, etc.) will need to have bulb replacement factored in to the purchase price. Most will say they are good for 2000-4000 hours of life but that isn't 'real world' usage. Plan on realistically getting about half of what the manufactures quote for lamp/bulb life.
Of course, if you choose CRT or Plasma based devices you won't have this to worry about.

-PGPfan

[Humanzee]

check this site out
http://www.consumersearch.com/www/el...fullstory.html
Im not sure the site knows the difference between 1080i and 1080p but the main point is that they summarize the findings of other consumer sites. It has been usefull for me in the past. They also have individual pages regarding LCD, PLASMA, REAR PROJECTION etc.

[cummings66]

In regards to bulb life. There are things you can do that will shorten it, and conversely lengthen it.

The key is to not treat it like a TV from years ago. Remember when our parents said to turn off the TV if we're not in the room, well do that with one of these puppies and you'll find your bulb wearing out quickly.

The theory being that if you're out of the room for say 30 minutes or so leave the TV on, if more than an hour or so then turn it off, but never turn them back on immediately. In fact, many of these sets have a timer that prevents an immediate turn on.

The bulbs used have only so many on/off cycles before the electrodes become eroded to far to light up, so constant on and off will use up that lifespan without regards to hours on the lamp.

Respect them for what they are, change your viewing habits and you'll find the lamp will last as designed, change nothing and it'll get expensive quickly. In other words, you won't find me turning on my PJ to watch the news and then back off again. I'll watch the news, and a movie or two then off for the day. Mine is turned on at most 3 times a day, and I've never had an early lamp failure.

[PGPfan]

cummings66,

I understand what you are saying. And yes, they are improving bulb lifespan but they have a long way to go before they reach the reliability/performance levels of CRT or Plasma. Fact is, it IS a 'slide projector' as far as functionality goes. It has certain inherent limitations of the technology. Another limitation is that the color temperature wanders all over the place as the bulb wears. It's pretty much impossible to calibrate them for any significant length of time.

Don't get me wrong, they are a great display device. They have done a ton to bring the home theater into peoples lives, in that they are so inexpensive for their size. They DO look nice, especially right out of the box. However, until they perfect using LED's as their light source we have to understand the downsides of the technology in evaluating them for our own personal use.

I use a CRT based projector. There is currently NO projector technology that surpasses them for picture quality. HOWEVER, they have limitations as well. They are large, heavy, and not so good unless you have light control in your viewing area. They DO have the best in contrast ratio (greater than 50,000:1), lifespan (greater than 10,000 hours - easily), acoustics, and price (if you know where to get them) of any current projector technology, however.

It's all about everyone learning the facts, and making up their own minds as to what they can live with.

-PGPfan

[steingra]

Thanks for information.

As far as where it would be located in the house...the living room. But our house is fairly dark, because of numerous large trees all around the house...which arent going anywhere So that might help limit or open up options since its definately darker in the house. Basically even in middle of day, some people might always want to have a light on to like read a book or whatever. Thats about how dark it is.

And depending on how we arranged furniture, the viewing distance would be either 11 feet or about 15 feet, from couch to front of display.

So what about screen refresh times. I have noticed those listed on the specs.

Basically, I want the largest (but not too big) quality hdtv, but I dont want to have to pay too much for it. I plan on playing HD channels from dish network, XBOX 360, playstation 3, and eventually HD-DVD's and/or Blue Ray thru it. And probably a Media MVP so we can watch all our recordings on it.

[stanger89]

Definitely look into FP, I love mine. And whatever you do, don't use an MVP on an HDTV, unless you're running it through a great scaler.

[paulbeers]

I agree with Stanger on this one, I have one of my MVP's hooked to a 30" CRT HDTV by Toshiba, and it is Mediocre at best on it. You can tell the lack of anything other than 480i on a tv that has 1080i as native, just doesn't look right. The Toshiba does a decent job of scaling, but it just doesn't quite get there. If Sage comes out with an HDTV client, I will be all over it for my 30" CRT (and maybe even for my big 51" RP). I couldn't imagine using an MVP on my 51" Toshiba in the basement. On my 20" CRT Samsung it looks great though.

[korben_dallas]

Leaning towards DLP myself, though none of the big-screen technologies are perfect.

Don't some sets have a standby mode, which would help w/ the bulb on/off issue?

[thatdude90210]

Here's my opinion -- at 11 feet, a 50" tv would be about minimum, and at 15 feet, that 50" tv would be too small. I watch a 42" plasma at about 6 - 7 feet, and if I had to go back 1 or 2 feet, I would have gone to 50".

Even at my distance, I see people pulling themselves closer all the time. And when I play xbox360, I get up close to about 4 feet.

At your distance, I would go for at least a 60" or even a 65" DLP.

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by korben_dallas

Leaning towards DLP myself, though none of the big-screen technologies are perfect.

Don't some sets have a standby mode, which would help w/ the bulb on/off issue?

Stanby mode 'can' help, but it doesn't solve the problem. It essentially boils down to this: we are trying to use a 'movie projector' like we use a TV. ALL LAMP PROJECTORS have this limitation, there is no way around it. All light bulbs burn out. Sure, you can 're-learn' your usage patterns to extend the life but how well does that work on your spouse? kids? or anyone that really doesn't understand WHY you have to do this? Sadly, this isn't currently a technology that is ready to replace CRT or Plasma in the living room. All these projectors are designed to be an easily portable presentation display, and they have been 'adapted' for use in the home (most of the adaptation done by the marketing departments). They have no track record in terms of longevity in home usage which is why it is recommended to take the specified bulb life and cut it in half for the 'real world'.

Once LED's are perfected as the light source in these machines, THEN and only THEN will 'lamp' based projectors really work in the home and totally surpass CRT, Plasma, etc.

-PGPfan

[stanger89]

SED, is what will truely replace CRT

[hemicuda]

Originally Posted by Mark SS

www.avforums.com or www.avsforums.com would be a good place to start for reviews and advice.

www.avsforum.com seems a better spelling . adding the 's' takes one to some placeholder website that's fairly useless.

[cummings66]

In defense of technologies that use HID Lamps since there's an obvious lack of defense for it.

First off, yes some of them are converted business PJ's, but not all are. There are PJ's out there that are made just for HT usage and are not converted in any manner. They are able to hold calibration pretty good, but remember you can't calibrate one until you get a couple hundred hours on the lamp because that's when most of the color shift occurs. After that it is pretty stable.

The same thing applies to RP DLP's.

Now I would also add that yes, the bulb life is not equal to a CRT, nobody has even tried to claim that and hopefully the retailer explains this to a customer, you'll go through 3 or 4 bulbs in the time they go through 1 crt. Don't forget that a CRT also has color shifts over time as well, some of them quite badly depending on crt manufacturer. The difference is that once you replace a lamp you get a picture as bright and vivid as it was the day you turned it on for the first time. A CRT based display requires 3 CRT's replaced to do the same thing, in the end the cost of 3 lamps over the lifespan is a wash compared the replacement of crt's, there is no real cost savings by going CRT.

That said, as far as I can tell nothing will equal a well setup CRT PJ, but if you want to just plug and pray then CRT is not the equal of lamp based tech. If you compared high end crt to dlp you would notice the CRT having better blacks for example, a larger CR might be noticeable as well depending on scene content. Come back in 5 years and the CRT would not look as good as DLP because it's most likely had the lamp replaced and will be brighter at that point.

No one tech is perfect, HD content will show a difference in them down the road. Each has a weakness and strength as I've pointed out.

I will say emphatically that if you watch TV for a large part of the day a DLP based tv is NOT the way to go, you'll be replacing lamps so often that you'll need to mortgage the home to afford it. Of course CRT will suffer as well but will give a picture for a longer time at a cheaper cost.

Choose the tech you like. Look at the picture each provides keeping in mind the limitations before you buy.

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by cummings66

In defense of technologies that use HID Lamps since there's an obvious lack of defense for it..

No worries, I don't think anyone is 'bashing' digital projectors. At least that's not my intention.

Originally Posted by cummings66

First off, yes some of them are converted business PJ's, but not all are. There are PJ's out there that are made just for HT usage and are not converted in any manner. They are able to hold calibration pretty good, but remember you can't calibrate one until you get a couple hundred hours on the lamp because that's when most of the color shift occurs. After that it is pretty stable.

The same thing applies to RP DLP's..

To the best of my understanding, all are based on business projectors (especially when a color wheel is used) excepting the Sony Qualia and Ruby (and perhaps the other 3-chip designs), but it is the nature of the bulbs to shift...again, things have improved in this area but there is still a long way to go. The stability is ultimately relative. Compared to CRT or Plasma, it's not very stable at all.

Originally Posted by cummings66

Now I would also add that yes, the bulb life is not equal to a CRT, nobody has even tried to claim that and hopefully the retailer explains this to a customer, you'll go through 3 or 4 bulbs in the time they go through 1 crt. Don't forget that a CRT also has color shifts over time as well, some of them quite badly depending on crt manufacturer.

Having owned both technologies, I don't agree with this. What are you referring to with color shift on a CRT? Perhaps you are thinking convergence drift? If so, that is almost always a result of poor installation/mechanical alignment. True color shift on a CRT is very rare (after initial warmup of approx 30 mins.).

Originally Posted by cummings66

The difference is that once you replace a lamp you get a picture as bright and vivid as it was the day you turned it on for the first time. A CRT based display requires 3 CRT's replaced to do the same thing, in the end the cost of 3 lamps over the lifespan is a wash compared the replacement of crt's, there is no real cost savings by going CRT.

CRT's certainly don't need all 3 tubes replaced at the same time. That is a frequently parroted myth. When a CRT projectors tubes begin to age, the real visible symptom is a subtle loss in focus ability. The green tube is usually the first/only tube to go (still lasts about 8000-10,000 hrs) with the blue tube lasting about 15,000. The red is good for typically 20,000-25,000 hours. You would be replacing tubes sooner if they are driven too hard and they burn, but still to replace all 3 at the same time is just a waste of money.

Originally Posted by cummings66

That said, as far as I can tell nothing will equal a well setup CRT PJ, but if you want to just plug and pray then CRT is not the equal of lamp based tech. If you compared high end crt to dlp you would notice the CRT having better blacks for example, a larger CR might be noticeable as well depending on scene content.

No arguement here, only I'd just add that essentially 'better blacks' IS a higher contrast ratio.

Originally Posted by cummings66

Come back in 5 years and the CRT would not look as good as DLP because it's most likely had the lamp replaced and will be brighter at that point..

My only disagreement here is that you won't have the same DLP in 5 years. They don't last that long. Pick any 5 year old DLP projector and try to get a new replacement bulb for it, if you can find one anywhere. Now, consider the picture that your 'now re-newed' DLP is throwing. It's no were near what a less expensive replacement sells for today, image wise.

Keep in mind the maturity of the technology. CRT's have been around for about 40 years as a projector technology. What I have today, I'll likely have for another 5 years. These things have long since been perfected, and they are built like tanks (and sized accordingly). Still, in the 7 years since my projector was built, there still isn't an equal image wise unless it's another CRT projector (like a better 9-inch machine, mine is still a 'measily' 8-inch gun).

Originally Posted by cummings66

No one tech is perfect, HD content will show a difference in them down the road. Each has a weakness and strength as I've pointed out.

I will say emphatically that if you watch TV for a large part of the day a DLP based tv is NOT the way to go, you'll be replacing lamps so often that you'll need to mortgage the home to afford it. Of course CRT will suffer as well but will give a picture for a longer time at a cheaper cost.

Choose the tech you like. Look at the picture each provides keeping in mind the limitations before you buy.

No arguement there. I hope I don't come across as slamming DLP/LCD projectors. They really are great. Like I said, I've owned (and still do) both technologies. There just are some limitations and the more facts people have to make decisions with the better.

-PGPfan

[sleonard]

I have a 3 1/2 year old Samsung DLP. The rating of the lamp was 3000 hrs if I remember correctly. Last time I checked (Jan. 06) it had 12000+ hrs and it is still going strong today. I am beginning to wonder if it will ever go bad!