All of a sudden I have fuzzy channels

[centralohioguy]

Kind of a strange problem has occured with my setup. Out of the blue, some channels started coming in incredibly fuzzy, black and white and with no sound. Like, say, channels 35-39 come in fine, then 40 is bad. 41-45 are fine and then 46 through 55 come in bad. The problem only occurs on some, but not all, channels above 28. I haven't made any major hardware or software changes that might cause this; it just happened out of the blue. I was hoping the new SageTV update might solve the problem, but no luck. I also downloaded the new trial version of BeyondTV, and the same problem exists with their software.

Now comes the odd part. On WinTV, the channels in question come in crystal clear. I'm baffled as to what could possibly be causing this problem. If there is a setting I should change in the SageTV software, or if there is some other fix I can apply, I'd really appreciate the suggestions. Thanks in advance!

[mike1961]

Oh my God....I have the SAME problem and I have posted for over a week with no response....finally I sent an Email to tech support and am waiting for a response....I have the problem from channels 31-53. All is clear above and below. I then reset my computer a week back and all was fine....then it happened again and resetting did nothing..

Here's what's really WIERD...yesterday all was fixed. I then when to play a video from the imported videos section and stopped it and went back to watch channel 53 and it was all fuzzy again (with no sound). This all happened without exiting Sage. I'm stumped...I purchased Sage anyway because my trial is up and I know this thing is going to work great eventually. But this problem is frustrating me too...I'm glad I'm not alone and maybe now that both of us have this exact same problem someone may have some answers (like you all works fine in my Wintv app). I've already tried reinstalling the source as well as uninstalling and reinstalling the sage app but that doesn't fix the problem either.

Mike

[centralohioguy]

That is weird we both have the same problem. BTW, who is your cable service provider? Mine is Time Warner in Columbus, OH. I considered this as a source of the problem, however that doesn't explain the fact that WinTV2000 is working fine while Sage and Beyond TV don't. The problem channels seem to change day to day, but the lower numbered channels all have worked fine as a rule since this problem started. It's when I get up above around channel 25 that's when things go haywire. This has been a consistent problem since it started and I haven't been lucky enough to even have intermittent relief from the problem.

In any case, I've tried everything too, from reseating my PVR card, changing PCI slots, different cables, direct connection to the cable jack, all the way down to uninstalling every single PVR related program on my computer, and cleaning out PVR related entries from my registry. I reinstalled, and BOOM, the same problem. SageTV has worked FLAWLESSLY for me since I purchased it back in late Sept. Now all of a sudden this. I'm like you, I figure eventually it will get fixed; but for the time being I have to go with the software package that came with my Hauppauge 150 (Not a good thing). Please let me know what tech. support tells you!

By the way, what kind of PVR card are you using?

[Pygmalion]

Hey, guys, just thought I would add my own similar experience to the list. Sage worked fine for me for over a year, then all of a sudden certain higher channels started to come in fuzzy. Strangely, this would happen only after I had recently turned on my computer (I don't leave it on all the time), but would go away after it had run for around 30 minutes. The problem has progressed, however, so that now it never goes away. I thought my card (350) was going bad, but then I tried Hauppage's software and the problem is not there. It is also not the feed, as it works fine when hooked directly to the TV. I considered reinstalling Sage, but haven't had the chance. Hopefully we can get an official response to the problem so this is fixed.

[mike1961]

Okay....we know it has nothing to do with the cable provider (which I didn't think it does) because I have Adelphia. I thought maybe it was the card since I also have a Hauppauge 150 but the prior post has a 350 but still it could have something to do with how Sage and BTV are accessing some drivers from Hauppauge...Not sure...I do also have an ATI so I'm going to see what happens if I try and access it from there. I've also done a google search on mce and fuzzy channels and got some hits there too. But, it seems from a quick glance that they are saying it's a frequency issue. But, the frequency is downloaded with the EPG (the guide). However, this has nothing to do with our problem because we know that it works fine when we fire up the WinTV software.

I hope the folks at Sage address this problem and fast. I hope they reply to my support request Email soon because this could really hinder me going from Tivo to Sage even with all the advantages. The problem is one could record a show which looks fine now and then when the recordings starts, everything is all fuzzy in black and white with no sound.

It's obviously not a cable splitter issue because it always works fine with WinTV and sometimes works with Sage.

What's going on?

Mike

[sfisher]

Hi Guys, don't have a clue as to why your having your problem. But I have some thing for you to look at...

From a bit of research I did a few weeks back, I found out that Sage TV like other similar applications (WinTV uses its own tables) use a built-in table in the registry to get the frequencies used by each channel (for cable and antenna anyway, not sure about the HD stuff) another table is then used to override if necessary the standard freqs.

Perhaps your table(s) in the registry have been somehow modified and now are causing those frequency entries to be wrong for you. Anyway, search the Hardware forum an entry I made about 1-2 weeks ago about Fine Tuning channels. It contains links to a program called "freqshifter" and Microsoft's frequency settings for each channel. Using freqshifter you can literally tune each channel as needed,
assuming it is a tuning issue.

P.S. when I used the program I adjusted both the general listing and the USA (in my case) listing simultaneously, (it was kind of recomended) and then had to stop and restart Sage Server/TV for it to take affect. I didn't have to reboot. To prove that it actually changed my tuning, first time;I set channel 2, to the frequency for channel 4, and channel 2 after that was channel 4's programs.

I hope this helps
-Steve

[mike1961]

I don't want this thread to die out just yet but have ANY of you found a solution yet to this problem?

Mike

[Homebuilder]

Originally Posted by sfisher

Hi Guys, don't have a clue as to why your having your problem. But I have some thing for you to look at...

From a bit of research I did a few weeks back, I found out that Sage TV like other similar applications (WinTV uses its own tables) use a built-in table in the registry to get the frequencies used by each channel (for cable and antenna anyway, not sure about the HD stuff) another table is then used to override if necessary the standard freqs.

Perhaps your table(s) in the registry have been somehow modified and now are causing those frequency entries to be wrong for you. Anyway, search the Hardware forum an entry I made about 1-2 weeks ago about Fine Tuning channels. It contains links to a program called "freqshifter" and Microsoft's frequency settings for each channel. Using freqshifter you can literally tune each channel as needed,
assuming it is a tuning issue.

P.S. when I used the program I adjusted both the general listing and the USA (in my case) listing simultaneously, (it was kind of recomended) and then had to stop and restart Sage Server/TV for it to take affect. I didn't have to reboot. To prove that it actually changed my tuning, first time;I set channel 2, to the frequency for channel 4, and channel 2 after that was channel 4's programs.

I hope this helps
-Steve

I do not yet have that problem, but I know my cable company is readjusting the quality of its channels. Giving less bandwidth to some digital channels to fit in more channels over all. This has caused some lower digital channels to be garbled a bit. The same "channel" in high def is fine.

My "idea" is that your problem is associated with that. The cable provider readjusting the bandwidth/frequency so you have to adjust the freq as Steve mentioned.

Now what I am afraid of it that this will be an ongoing issue for all of us and if wintv has updated freq tables that do not have this trouble, I think sage better look into it.

Any way to edit the sage table to match the wintv table?

[mike1961]

If that's true then Sage must be getting their table from the Guide. But, how do I get this FreqShifter to work? I tried making channel 4 the channel 2 frequency of 55250000L (what does the L mean)? But, it's not doing anything in the WinTV2000. It stills sees channel 4. I even went into my regedit and checked and the value is there. In my registry under TVAutoTune I see a TS0-1, and a TS1-0. The value is stored in TS0-1. But, my WinTV2000 still sees channel 4 as channel 4 and not channel 2. Also, I couldn't find the frequencies at the Adelphia site but I found them at the microsoft site: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...ssignments.asp

How do I get this freqshifter to work with WinTV2000 and Sage and are the Microsoft frequencies correct?

Thanks,
Mike

[sfisher]

Originally Posted by mike1961

If that's true then Sage must be getting their table from the Guide. But, how do I get this FreqShifter to work? I tried making channel 4 the channel 2 frequency of 55250000L (what does the L mean)? But, it's not doing anything in the WinTV2000. It stills sees channel 4. I even went into my regedit and checked and the value is there. In my registry under TVAutoTune I see a TS0-1, and a TS1-0. The value is stored in TS0-1. But, my WinTV2000 still sees channel 4 as channel 4 and not channel 2. Also, I couldn't find the frequencies at the Adelphia site but I found them at the microsoft site: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...ssignments.asp

How do I get this freqshifter to work with WinTV2000 and Sage and are the Microsoft frequencies correct?

Thanks,
Mike

Mike,

Did you see my later post in the Hardware forum? The L just means the number is a Long Integer in computereze you don't enter it. Win TV 2000 doesn't use the Microsoft tuning tables it has its own. Sage TV on the other hand does, at least for my 150/500MCE drivers. freqshifter changes won't show up in WinTV; by default anyway, the link I put in the hardware forum may change that.... http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14599

Hope this helps
-Steve

BTW, Are you saying you see the same problem with the channels using WinTV as Well as in Sage TV? And are you sure you don't have a signal strength problem? You may want to see what a Bi-directional rf amplifier can do for you. Like the CE Labs 6001 its like $37 at buy.com.

-Steve

[mike1961]

Finally...making a little progress on this problem....

No - I'm not saying that. WinTV works just perfect so it's not a splitter issue at all. As it turns out, you were right; FreqShifter or just modifying it directly in the registry does work. But, one caveat...which was driving me crazy, you have to go to the task manager and do an End Process on the SageTVServiceControl so that when you start it up again it reads in the new values otherwise it appears as if the FreqShifter didn't do anything at all (at least not until sage reads in the new table).

I'm hoping I only need to do this at the server and not all the clients. Can you please verify this for me? Right now I'm getting a Java Exception at my test client so I can't test it right now (another problem).

One last thing....any idea where I can get all the frequency values from? I tried inputting the frequency for channel 4 at channel 53. When I tried the 53 frequency in 53 (from the microsoft link) it was all fuzzy. I'm guessing that must be the default frequency that Sage is using and not the one my WinTV2000 is using. How can I get those frequencies? It's all a pain but at least I finally see a solution for this problem..

Thanks,
Mike

[sfisher]

Mike try the registry change to make WinTV use the Microsoft tables (you'll probably have to reboot) if it works (change channel 2 with 4 to prove it.) and the same channels don't then work for winTV 2000 you'll know it is the Microsoft tables at least.

-Steve

[mike1961]

I think what I need to do is get the Adelphia frequencies. What is the registry change for the WinTV2000 (how do I do that)? Also, if I noticed that sometimes the Sage worked and other times especially lately it doesn't work at all and it's because of my cable provider then how come WinTV2000 is not having this problem? What I don't understand is that if the tables in WinTV2000 are fixed and don't change, and the frequencies are provided with the guide (epg) then I would think WinTV2000 would have the problem (since the tables are fixed) and the Sage would not (if sage is getting the frequencies from the guide).

Mike

[sfisher]

I put a link to the reg changes in my last post in Hardware...

the EPG as far as I know doesn't have the channel freqs in it. I just guessing here, WinTv may be able to tune a wider frequency deviation than Sage is doing to capture the signal something like +- 2MHz vs +-20MHz. I really don't know either. What I think is maybe the ferquency is on the edge of what sage is auto-tuning for and sometimes catches it and sometimes fails based on the signal strength of an off frequency signal

What I tried to say in my original message is maybe for some unknown reason, somehow the registry settings for the Microsoft tables are (or have been) either overridden or corrupted by another application. As winTV uses its own built-in tables by default if it works, then the boards are good. If the Microsoft tables work for WinTV (you have to make sure the registry changes actually work, they may be version specific) then you now know the Problem is something to do with the SageTV program itself. If you can vary the freqs in the Microsoft tables a little +- bit and maybe tune in the channel then you have a solution.

They should be in the area of what the Microsoft tables have for them; just a bit off maybe. Analog TVs tune them in so they have to be in the area, but maybe just a bit wider than Sage is searching. I.E. channel 53 falls in-between the frequencies for 52 and 54 try incremental steps in both directions a little bit at a time.

If it still doesn't tune then I'm at a loss Sage is going to have to supply an answer.

-Steve

[mike1961]

Okay - here's what I have tested and my results:

Hauppauge Results:
First - I tried changing the value in the registry so that the Hauppauge uses the Microsoft tables instead of its own. When I do this....wham...everything is fuzzy in Hauppauge exactly like in Sage. I tried this several times and each time was the same result - all fuzzy on those channels. I then tried another Scan for channels and it was still fuzzy. I then tried to do a FineTune on the channel but it was not helping anywhere when moving the slider all the way from one side to the other. But, once I changed the registry value back and told Hauppauge to use it's tables...everything was crystal clear again. I tried this several times and it was always crystal clear when Hauppauge used its own tables and totally fuzzy on some channels when I told it to use the Microsoft Tables....How can I fix this in Sage? Perhaps if I could get the Hauppauge frequencies I could then enter them in but I don't know what or where they are.

Sage Results:
Next - I tried entering the frequency from the Microsoft table for Channel 53 in the Registry entry using FreqShifter. I used 397250000L for channel 53 for cable NTSC format. Still all fuzzy. I tried it both ways when setting Sage properties to AutoTune = true as well as false. It was fuzzy both in both cases.

Can anyone guide me as to where to proceed from here? I just know I'm making some progress but I'm not sure what to do next. I'm thinking if I can get the Hauppauge frequencies maybe I could try plugging them in.

Thanks,
Mike

[mike1961]

More information....I tried varying the frequency for channel 53 and moved it up to 398050000L and all of the sudden everything started working....Sage was able to pick up the channel. Now, here's the interesting part, first I set the Sage properties so that AutoTune is true. Next, if I backed it down a little to 397850000L then it tunes to the channel and the video is clear but there is no sound for a few seconds even though I can see people talking. It's as if Sage is taking time to auto fine tune but it does get it. When I bump it up a little more from 39785 to 39805 then it picks it up immediately.

I'm wondering if I simply need to get the right frequencies from my cable company or where I can get them because they are wrong in the Microsoft website that says it's 397250000L for channel 53 NTSC. Something is wrong yet WinTV2000 picks up channel 53 with no problem. I don't want to have to find the right frequency by trial and error for 20 channels. I don't even know that 398050000L is the right frequency. I only know that Sage can tune it fairly quick from that frequency. At least I have a solution but I don't want to spend the rest of the year fine tuning frequencies.

Anyone have ideas as to where to go from here...Seems like there's finally a solution but it could take a lot of time to correct all the channels that are messed up. Maybe Sage needs a setting or something to autotune in a wider range and maybe that is what Hauppauge is doing as you stated. I think that may be what is happening. But that still doesn't explain why Hauppauge is also fuzzy when I tell it to use the Microsoft frequency by changing its registry setting. Any ideas as to what is going on here?

Mike

[sfisher]

Yes! This is where I was trying to get you to... Here is a quote from the msdn at http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...ssignments.asp

Although cable frequencies are generally expected to be exact, broadcast frequencies may be adjusted up or down several kHz by the broadcast station to reduce potential interference with neighboring channels

When the TV Tuner filter tunes to a channel, it scans for the most precise signal. To save this information in the registry for subsequent tuning operations, do the following:

And then they give code for how you as a developer would write a program to for your TV Application to do this. So here is what I think may be happening and some stuff for you to try.

1) your cable company is one of those that has adjusted the frequencies somewhat.
2) WinTV using it's internal tables and capabilities either scans for the exact frequency each an every time you select a channel, like an analog TV would. Or when it did scan it got the correct frequencys and stored them for its use.

When you changed WinTV to use the Microsoft Tables, maybe it doesn't do an automatic scan each and every time but uses the values set in the tables.

3) Sage TV scanned for the channels when you first set it up. May be the cable company has changed those channels since then. In which case, if you go into channel setup in Sage TV and Tell Sage TV to scan for Channels again it may actually correct the channels that are now at a slightly different frequency, and store the results in the Microsoft Tables like Microsoft says apps should. You should probably remove the values freqshifter entered before you try this. Problem solved.

If that doesn't work, then I'd say it was because Sage TV, possibly using the built in tuning routines microsoft provides, isn't dynamic enough to tune in your channels. This is a problem for Sage Support/Developers to solve you need to talk to them about it. And now you can describe exactly what the problem appears to be.

4) Something to try that might work if sage can't tune the correct freqs... Set a restore point / save your registry before you try this. I don't have WinTV it doesn't work with the MCE Drivers so I can't tell you exactly the steps,but... if there is a scan for channels function in WinTV either in the menu or maybe you have to remove it and re-install it. See if you can set the registry to use the Microsoft Tables again and then make it Scan for Channels, maybe it will be able to set them right for you. Just be sure to have a backup of the registry first.

Good Luck Again
Keep me Informed
-Steve

[mike1961]

Hello and thank you for your continued support and replies. I tried the rescan with WinTV (when it was using the Microsoft channels) and I also tried a rescan with Sage and the channels were still fuzzy.

Here's the strange part (could be a coincidence) but when I installed the Sage 4.1.3 on my client computer other channels started coming in fuzzy like channel 75 (now on both the SageTV and the client which makes sense since the video is streamed). I think a lot more channels are now fuzzy and I don't want to have to manually test and enter all the frequencies for these channels since I'm still trying to get the frequencies through Adelphia.

I'm thinking maybe an uninstall and reinstall of WinTV might help but let me know if you can think of anything else. Otherwise, it could be a lot of work especially if Adelphia doesn't know the frequencies or doesn't release them. Also, I'm thinking, what happens if the cable companies continue to randomly alter the frequencies....this could be an ongoing PITA. I would think there could be something Sage could do so as to read the frequencies the way WinTV does (without the Microsoft tables).

Thanks again,
Mike

[sfisher]

Mike its time you contact, if you haven't already SAGE TV TECH Support with the results of your testing, the issue seems to be how they are tuning the channels.

-Steve

[Outvit]

I had the same problem a few days ago and I got replies.
See my topic here: http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14683