x64 flavors of Windows and Sage?

[silkshadow]

The parts for my new Sage server finally came in *horaay* . So I'm building this beast now and I have a question. I was running Sage on Win Server 2003 before. Now theres Server 2003 x64. Are there any issues with running Sage on Server 2003 x64? How about drivers? Some of my devices (like the PVR500) don't seem to have 64-bit drivers. Will the normal 32-bit drivers work with Sage under a x64 flavor of windows? Thanks!

[zik]

I may be mistaken, but I think you can't use 32-bit drivers on a 64-bit OS.

[nielm]

Personally, I would always wait for an SP-1 release of any new windows version, but that's just me

[gplasky]

You need 64 bit drivers for x64. 32 bit will not function at all. This is definite.

Gerry

[silkshadow]

I may be mistaken, but I think you can't use 32-bit drivers on a 64-bit OS.

Wow! This will be my first install of an x64 version of windows. Please, please don't be offended Zik, but you don't sound positive so I have to ask: can anyone confirm that? Because, if so, then most of my HTPC hardware (PVR cards, USB-uirt, etc) won't work and that's a quick answer to my question .

@Nielm, . Unfortunately, MS is rather slow on service packs for the server OS. Took them 2 years+ to come out with the first SP.

Edit: Thanks Gplasky! Seems we're posting at the same time. That tears it, no x64 for this new box.

[SHS]

Keep in mind that 64bit OS, Apps, Game is not really main stream rigth now for customer use.
It no diff then old day of first 386 32bit CPU which was around for very long time before they got around make a full 32bit customer OS which all know who that was IBM OS/2 2.0 Warp and MS was working on something but wasn't going to be a customer OS at the time know as WinNT 3.1.
Computers running Windows 64-Bit OS do not support 32-bit device drivers. PERIOD!
Sure 64bit is next cutting edge of technology but like ever thing else it all going to take time 2 to 3 years.
But I wouldn't go count on a lot of older stuff like games being patch from 32bit to 64bit

[Crazedz]

Zik's just being a bit cautious.

No 32 bit drivers won't work (it's a 64 bit OS needs 64 bit drivers) older 64 bit drivers that came out ealier in the beta cycle won't install anymore either unless their decorated

This was done to keep people from trying to install 32 bit drivers onto the 64 bit OS and possibly messing up the system. So no 32 bit drivers even though 2003X64 has a 32 bit windows or WOW (Windows on Windows). It thier only for 32 bit software compatability. Edit(Forgot this): many 32 bit programs and games do work using wow but not all which is to be expected from MS it happens with each new OS some mostly older programs just won't work in the new OS. But from what i have tried as well as seen and heard on the Windows server 64 bit message boards is that thoughs games that do work most of them run faster in 64 bit verses 32 bit. So it depends on the program or game all you can do is try it. Unreal 2k4 works well as does Halflife 2 for start.

Anyway i was in on the trial releases and was wanting to see if i could get my tuners working on XP 64 which is built off of server 2003 x64 and found out the same thing it won't work until Hauppauge gets drivers put out. Which as i remember takes them a few months when a major OS change like this happens.

So nothing you can do but wait. At least your not alone in this boat and their are others with tuners from other manufacturers who are also still waiting for 64 bit tuner drivers.

[mayamaniac]

and there's no point in running XP64 even if you have 64bit drivers for your hardware, because the softwares, such asSageTV, will still be 32bit. So you're not gonna get the full 64bit experience. It'll be a long time (2-3 years or more) before most softwares and hardware switch to 64bit.

[nielm]

So you're not gonna get the full 64bit experience.

and for simple apps like Sage, all that will mean is that it will use more memory, and may even be slower

The only real need (at present) for 64 bits is for apps that use a lot (several GB) of memory such as very very large DB servers, or very high resolution digital image rendering apps.

This Google answers post covers it quite well
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=514147

[bones71]

Tried the new windows xp pro x64 on my laptop amd64 3200 and it was horribly unstable and it was a release not a beta don't think it is ready for the big time yet anyway.

[silkshadow]

Thanks everyone! This clears things up above and beyond. So, x64 is definately not ready for primetime yet. Guess it needs to be treated like a brand new MS OS and given the 6 m0nths to get stable before use.

[stanger89]

I don't know about that, I ran the RC of it (while it was free), and it was stable as my XP Pro install. Problem is, there hasn't been enough time for hardware manufacturers (aside from nVidia/ATI) to update their drivers, nor for some software to get updated (I couldn't get any virtual drive software to install because they don't yet have 64 bit drivers). As of right now, only the essentials have been ported over. It just depends on what you need.

Once we see drivers for the non-essentails, and some HTPC apps get ported over, it will be a different story. 64 bit ffdshow and 64 bit video encoders could be quite interesting, especially on an Athlon 64 X2 if they throw multithreading in with it /drool

[Crazedz]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I don't know about that, I ran the RC of it (while it was free), and it was stable as my XP Pro install. Problem is, there hasn't been enough time for hardware manufacturers (aside from nVidia/ATI) to update their drivers, nor for some software to get updated (I couldn't get any virtual drive software to install because they don't yet have 64 bit drivers). As of right now, only the essentials have been ported over. It just depends on what you need.

Once we see drivers for the non-essentails, and some HTPC apps get ported over, it will be a different story. 64 bit ffdshow and 64 bit video encoders could be quite interesting, especially on an Athlon 64 X2 if they throw multithreading in with it /drool

Yeah i ran the RC's as well still have the last one on another partition but it's useless for most of what i wanna need to do because of lack of drivers. For games and other programs that do work on it it's pretty good but for the rest it's useless. I didn't have any stability problems with it either ran smooth and solid on my system.

And i agree once we start getting 64 bit apps for 64 bit it looks like it will be awsome.

[phenixdragon]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

and there's no point in running XP64 even if you have 64bit drivers for your hardware, because the softwares, such asSageTV, will still be 32bit. So you're not gonna get the full 64bit experience. It'll be a long time (2-3 years or more) before most softwares and hardware switch to 64bit.

This is one thing that I hate seeing is just because the app is 32 bit that you won't get the full deal. While that is true, but the OS is running in 64 bit and it should be giving you better performance. I noticed 32 bit apps running better on my 64 bit machine then they did on a 32 bit machine because the OS is able to work in 64 bit.




Personally I would stick with XP and not worry about upgrading until CableCard is supported. THe interfaces are going to change over from PCI to PCI-X and Microsoft is going to support CableCard with the next release of MCE, or at least that's what is thought since they are working with CableCard as I am typing this. But until then 32 bit XP is all that you will need.

[Grey_Goose]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

It'll be a long time (2-3 years or more) before most softwares and hardware switch to 64bit.

lol! sorry, i'm not picking on you, i'm just remembering all the promises made about the 16 to 32 transition.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by phenixdragon

THe interfaces are going to change over from PCI to PCI-X...

FWIW, it's PCI-Express, or PCIe, PCI-X is the 133MHz, 64bit version of normal PCI, generally only used in server boards.

...and Microsoft is going to support CableCard with the next release of MCE, or at least that's what is thought since they are working with CableCard as I am typing this. But until then 32 bit XP is all that you will need.

Actually it's seeming increasingly unlikely that we'll see CableCard before Longhorn.

[phenixdragon]

Originally Posted by stanger89

FWIW, it's PCI-Express, or PCIe, PCI-X is the 133MHz, 64bit version of normal PCI, generally only used in server boards.

PCI-X is PCI Express/PCIe. It is like saying is a meg 1000 or is it 1024. 1024 is what it is in my book.

PCI-X 2.0 Overview
PCI-X 2.0 is a new, higher speed version of the conventional PCI standard, which supported signaling speeds up to 533 megatransfers per second (MTS). Revision 1.0 of the PCI-X specification defined PCI-X 66 and PCI-X 133 devices that transferred data up to 133 MTS, or over 1Gbyte per second for a 64-bit device. The present revision adds two new speed grades: PCI-X 266 and PCI-X 533, offering up to 4.3 gigabytes per second of bandwidth, 32 times faster than the first generation of PCI. Another major feature of the PCI-X 2.0 specification is enhanced system reliability. ECC support has been added both for the header and payload, providing automatic single-bit error recovery and double-bit error detection. These new standards keep pace with upcoming advances in high-bandwidth business-critical applications such as Fibre Channel, RAID, networking, InfiniBand™ Architecture, SCSI, and iSCSI.

PCI-X 2.0 is built upon the same architecture, protocols, signals, and connector as traditional PCI. The reuse of many of the design elements from the conventional PCI and PCI-X1.0b standards eases design and implementation migration. Migration to PCI-X 266 and PCI-X 533 is further simplified by retaining hardware and software compatibility with previous generations of PCI and PCI-X. As a result, new designs can immediately connect with hundreds of PCI and PCI-X products that are currently available. The combination of backwards compatibility and ease of migration provides investment protection for customers, developers, and manufacturers of existing PCI and PCI-X technologies as they migrate to PCI-X 266 and PCI-X 533.

PCI-X 2.0 also includes new features that will enhance applications in the future. It defines a new 16-bit interface width specifically designed for those applications that are constrained by space, such as embedded RAID controllers, or portable applications. PCI-X 2.0 also expands the device configuration space for each device-function to 4Kbytes, and defines a new Device ID Message transaction to enable simplified peer-to-peer transactions for applications such as streaming-media.

For over ten years, the PCI-SIG has been developing the world’s most popular bus technology. The PCI-X 2.0 266 MHz and 533 MHz standards lay the groundwork for the next decade, and further backwards-compatible extensions are planned beyond 533 MHz.

Summary of PCI-X 2.0 Features

Doubles and Quadruples PCI-X bandwidth.
Full hardware and software backward compatibility to previous generations of PCI.
Builds upon tens of man-centuries of development.
Uses the same form factor, pin-outs, connector, bus widths, and protocols.
Enables 10Gb Ethernet, 10Gb Fibre Channel, InfiniBand™ Architecture, and other IO technologies.
Full RAS support including ECC.
Performance 32 times higher than the first generation of PCI.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Actually it's seeming increasingly unlikely that we'll see CableCard before Longhorn.

We won't be, MSFT has stated they will not be releasing the new MCE until Longhorn is released. I never said we would see it sooner, only that they are testing it as we speak. but as for CableCard in general it is out in some areas.

My point is it is pointless to really try building a 64 bit server for something that will last a logn time isn't going to work. New technology is coming by the end of 2007 and everything we have now will be replaced.

[mikejaner]

PCI-X is PCI Express/PCIe. It is like saying is a meg 1000 or is it 1024. 1024 is what it is in my book.

PCI-X is not PCI Express. These are two totally different technologies.

http://www.fix-it.org/archive/index.php/t-877.html
http://www6.tomshardware.com/motherb...1/xeon-05.html

[phenixdragon]

Originally Posted by mikejaner

PCI-X is not PCI Express. These are two totally different technologies.

http://www.fix-it.org/archive/index.php/t-877.html
http://www6.tomshardware.com/motherb...1/xeon-05.html

lol, not getting my point?

[mikejaner]

Sorry, either it's too early in the morning or I am reading you too literally.
I am responding to the part where you say PCI-X is PCI Express.