16x9 Shows Not Being Recognized

[rsagetv99]

I am running nVDVD with a 6800 connected via DVI to a Toshiba widescreen HDTV. I have the resolution set to 720, but for some reason when I watch a TV program that is formatted to 16x9 (e.g. HBO's Carnivale) I have black borders at the top and bottom of the screen. I have tried the different Apect Ratios in SAGE and this happens with Fill and 16x9. Source gives me borders all the way around and 4:3 gives me borders on both sides if I remember right.

How do I get SAGE (or my STB) to display the show properly?

[pcuoco]

A PVR150/250/350, or any other Standard Definition (SD) capture device records in a 4x3 format only. Carnivale (a great show btw) is shown in a 16x9 format in HD, but in SD it is really a 4x3 image cropped/letterboxed so you can fit the 16x9 image in the 4x3 SD frame, if that makes sense. This is unlike a DVD which can be encoded to look right on both a 4x3 or a 16x9 display.

So, in order to eliminate the black bars of the letterboxing for widescreen SDTV recordings, set the Sage aspect ratio to "source" to elminate most of the overscan and set your HDTV to "zoom" or equivalent. If it's a true 16x9 aspect ratio it should now fit the display nearly perfectly.

Unfortunately this method requires scaling the image with the TV, but will have to do until Sage offers a software scaling "zoom" mode in it's aspect ratio controls. MCE 2005 has this zoom feature now though.

[stanger89]

Adjust the 16x9 AR in sage to roughly (you'll have to tweak) 130% vertical zoom, that will blow it up so the bars are not displayed. Of course you'll have to switch manually to/from that AR setting, but it works well for me.

[pcuoco]

I should have thought of that! I guess I wan't thinking outside the box. Thank's Stanger89.

[rhsmcc]

I think the most important thing to determine is how the video is presented to your capture device. If your using a HDTV box either from TWC or DirecTV and Dish, these different boxes output different formatted pictures. I’m assuming your capturing through the svideo. My TWC pioneer HDTV box has different adjustable setting for screen format. When I use a full screen setting the svideo out on the pioneer box outputs HDTV content as full screen image that sage captures without top, bottom or side bars. Sage doesn’t know the difference it just captures at 720x480 but when I playback a recording from a HD channel like HBOHD it fills my 16x9 HDTV screen and looks like the orginal. Regular 4x3 SD recording however will do the same thing and look stretched. This I fix by selecting 4x3 under the options screen in sage. So check to see how your video looks as it comes out of svideo on your HDTV box. Sage will only record what it sees.

[rsagetv99]

Thanks everyone.
pcuoco, my HDTV will not let me adjust the zoom through the TV settings itself. I'm not sure, but I think it is because I am connected through DVI, or it may be because my nVDVD driver is sending a signal to my TV with what I have the Aspect Ratio set to in the decoder properties. When I try to adjust the zoom it says not available. I have been able to adjust the zoom on DVD's through the component ports, but when I had a brighthouse cable HD STB, when watching HD the zoom was also unavailable. I'm sure this is supposed to be a feature but to me it's more like a bug.

Stanger, since my TV zoom is unavailable I will have to try what you are suggesting. Sounds like a PITA, but I'll do it to get a better picture.

rhsmcc, I don't have an HDTV STB anymore, even if I did I don't have an HDTV capture card, but what you are saying makes sense. I seem to recall my STBs having a 16x9 setting that I tried at one point and it did not seem to make a difference. Maybe that's because I was not watching a program that was offered in widescreen. I will try that again. Thanks.

[Crashless]

Originally Posted by rsagetv99

Thanks everyone.
pcuoco, my HDTV will not let me adjust the zoom through the TV settings itself. I'm not sure, but I think it is because I am connected through DVI, ...snip...

Stanger, since my TV zoom is unavailable I will have to try what you are suggesting. Sounds like a PITA, but I'll do it to get a better picture.

I don't think that there are many (if any) HDTVs that can scale an HD source. The televisions assume that if you're feeding it an HD signal (as you are through DVI) it's already formatted for it, and it (the TV) doesn't need to do anything.

I think those settings are your only choice. You'll only have to set it once though. After that, you'll just have to call up the options menu when you start watching something that's 16x9, and choose that AR. It's a step, but you'll get the best PQ that way.

Also, you might want to checkout FFDSHOW as a post processor if you're using DVI, it has some pretty nice options to clean up an SD signal for HD display. It'll tax the hell out of your processor though, so bring a big stick.

You might want to post your findings as of scaling for the archives, just in case someone else finds has your problem in the future - it would be nice to have them written down for everyone.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by rsagetv99

Stanger, since my TV zoom is unavailable I will have to try what you are suggesting. Sounds like a PITA, but I'll do it to get a better picture.

It's actually not too bad if you map your keyboard/remote to switch between aspect ratios.

[rsagetv99]

What I understood from Stanger's comments is that you have to go to Detailed Setup and adjust the vertical zoom setting. I have tried all of the aspect ratios and these do not help. I'm not sure if you can map vertical zoom settings to your remote...

[stanger89]

Let me describe how I have mine setup, and see if it clarifies things. There are 3 ARs I use, Source, Fill, and 16x9. I have them configured like this:
Fill:
H/V zoom = 100%
Source:
H/V zoom = 105% (haven't bothered to change it)
16x9:
H zoom = 100%
V zoom = 133%

Right now, I use Source for my 4:3 conent and have the Video orbit function set to 15min to avoid burn in, for 16x9 anamorphic content (DVDs) I use Fill, and for letterbox content, I use 16x9. I've got a button configured on my remote that toggles through them so with a button press or two, I can get to the AR setting I want.

[rsagetv99]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Let me describe how I have mine setup, and see if it clarifies things. There are 3 ARs I use, Source, Fill, and 16x9. I have them configured like this:
Fill:
H/V zoom = 100%
Source:
H/V zoom = 105% (haven't bothered to change it)
16x9:
H zoom = 100%
V zoom = 133%

Right now, I use Source for my 4:3 conent and have the Video orbit function set to 15min to avoid burn in, for 16x9 anamorphic content (DVDs) I use Fill, and for letterbox content, I use 16x9. I've got a button configured on my remote that toggles through them so with a button press or two, I can get to the AR setting I want.

Thanks for clarifying. So it looks like you can adjust the settings for each AR, I did not know this. I will have to try this. Thanks for the tip.

BTW, I tried changing the settings on my STB to from 4:3 to 16x9 and then I pulled up a movie that was being shown in letterbox, but I still had the black bars at the top and bottom. It appears that the only thing this setting does is change the STB's guide and menu screens to 16x9, which doesn't help me at all since I use SAGE for EPG data.

[glbrown]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Let me describe how I have mine setup, ...

Well this just made my life richer, fuller, and more delicious.

thanx

[kny3twalker]

just to add this but most shows when viewed normally on TVs are overscaned, somewhat to hide some of the garbage the networks have around the edges of the picture

I am using 133 for 16x9 vertical zoom, as well as (found that by trial and error) but for most of my other AR settings, I am also using either a 5% or 7% zoom just to cut off that garbage around the edges

such as from D* some of my channels the top 1/4" of the screen has a bar of static, not sure why but I definitely do not want to see this

[falchulk]

Originally Posted by Crashless

I don't think that there are many (if any) HDTVs that can scale an HD source. The televisions assume that if you're feeding it an HD signal (as you are through DVI) it's already formatted for it, and it (the TV) doesn't need to do anything.

I think those settings are your only choice. You'll only have to set it once though. After that, you'll just have to call up the options menu when you start watching something that's 16x9, and choose that AR. It's a step, but you'll get the best PQ that way.

Also, you might want to checkout FFDSHOW as a post processor if you're using DVI, it has some pretty nice options to clean up an SD signal for HD display. It'll tax the hell out of your processor though, so bring a big stick.

You might want to post your findings as of scaling for the archives, just in case someone else finds has your problem in the future - it would be nice to have them written down for everyone.

I have a Toshiba 51" that can.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by rsagetv99

BTW, I tried changing the settings on my STB to from 4:3 to 16x9 and then I pulled up a movie that was being shown in letterbox, but I still had the black bars at the top and bottom. It appears that the only thing this setting does is change the STB's guide and menu screens to 16x9, which doesn't help me at all since I use SAGE for EPG data.

I suspect that only applies to HD programming which is transmitted 16x9 native. For SD content, it's probably broadcast in 4x3 but letterboxed.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by kny3twalker

just to add this but most shows when viewed normally on TVs are overscaned, somewhat to hide some of the garbage the networks have around the edges of the picture

Yeah, my TV/resolution is set up with a little overscan so I don't need Sage to add any for me

I am using 133 for 16x9 vertical zoom, as well as (found that by trial and error) but for most of my other AR settings, I am also using either a 5% or 7% zoom just to cut off that garbage around the edges

I think I used some of the DVE test patterns to figure out where I wanted it.

[rsagetv99]

Originally Posted by kny3twalker

such as from D* some of my channels the top 1/4" of the screen has a bar of static, not sure why but I definitely do not want to see this

I get the some thing from D*. I've also noticed that on some shows, a bar on the right side of the screen with some static. Specifically I've seen this with Forensic Files, but it does not last the entire show, it seems as they move between different scenes it shows up, but then later disappears. Might be the show itself.

Also, I've noticed the video moving around the screen alot, even when I pause it. Hopefully this was because I had orbitration set to 5 minutes. Now I am trying 15 minutes as suggested by Stanger, so we'll see if that fixes my problem.

[glbrown]

Always remember, there are a lot of places to screw up between the camera on the set and what you see on your display. Take a low-budget channel like FSTV. I get about 1/2" of alternating bars all the way down on the right side on just about everything they broadcast.

Another one is a program called Mosaic on LINKTV. It is TV from the middle east and you can see lots of these types of edge issues.

The quality of an SNL episode from 20 years ago is quite a bit different from a recent one.