Remote Control To Use (Harmony setup help?)

[TheraEdge]

Yes, it is yet another thread asking what remote control to use to control Sage TV. So, I have talked in other threads about this also, and now I am almost there. I have a USB-UIRT all installed and ready, blinking at me all the time, telling me it sees my remote control when I am controlling other things. I also have a Harmony universal remote. The issue is, after going through all the commands I would like to use in the SageTV guide I counted up about 50 commands I would like to set buttons for. So, the latest Hauppauge remote has 45 buttons, so I am short. I could knock some of the commands off the list and make it so I have to use a keyboard and mouse to access the aspect ratios etc, but would rather just have a remote profile large enough to handle all the commands available in sage. With the harmony remote I just need the profile with enough IR codes, and I can add them at will on the LCD screen when I run out of buttons. So my hardware has a more infinate range, but I need to pick a profile, and if I am wrong I will have to reprogram everything all over again. So, are there any suggestions out there about remotes with an uber number of buttons that have thier own IR profile? I'll just be able to find it in the harmony database and download it to my remote...

[TheraEdge]

Hmm, so I have poured through the post on there actually being 64 IR codes for every RC5 system number, descovered by looking through the Hauppauge IR file that gets installed on the computer and more research. Now I just need to find a way to get those codes programmed into my Harmony remote. This seems to be my biggest aggrivation with this remote, is that since everything takes place online there is no simple way to get codes into it other than programing them with another IR remote. Someone really needs to make a utility for this. I would, but I posses not the skills to do so, and I have not found any utilities for this in a couple of quick searches online.

Since I have a USB-UIRT I was wondering what else I would need to set it up to teach my remote the 64 codes in the hauppauge RC5 system. Or any other for that matter. I know I could do it another way, but I am trying to produce a method with a straight forwardness that I would have appreciated learning about up front.

It sounded in that post as if these codes are simply set up in order or something so that you could input the system and code number you wanted and a computer utility might be able to change that into an IR code and download it to a remote. Am I wrong in my understanding?

[Opus4]

Actually, there are 128 command codes for each of the 32 RC5 system codes. But, if you are using a USB-UIRT, you don't need to worry about RC5 -- you just want _anything_ your remote can emit & that the USB-UIRT can receive.

Anyway... regarding setting up your Harmony remote, have you looked into the forums at Remote Central? They have a section for the Harmony.

- Andy

[TheraEdge]

OK, I looked over there, and I didn't really see anything sage specific, but I will start looking into the questions I asked here. Could you eleborate a little on RC5? I assume that is a standard for codes for IR devices that remote controls for companies have to register for, and you say that there are 128 codes for each system # but 32 system numbers doesn't seem like it would be enough for all the different companies and devices out there. Are there other types of system codes other than RC5?

I do understand that I just need anything that my remote can emit and the UIRT can recieve, but chosing that one thing is a bit of a task. I have already tried to look at random PVR devices to see if there were enough commands available to get the 50+ needed for all the sage commands and have found nothing. I like the sound of being able to expand on the hauppauge remote commands & just use one set of commands. If I can just get a way to get the codes into the remote then I should be able to skip the step of messing with the IR file since sage can read the codes directly from the UIRT. Just my thoughts, and if I can get all the codes needed into my remote, uploading them to the harmony site for other users would be nice, so other users could have what I was looking for. A fairly hedache free way to have all SageTV commands programmed into thier remote, since it is to late for me. Hehe, I figured someone would have done this by now, and it seems like, you, Opus4, have gotten it working in the lest costly way of not getting the UIRT and using a the Hauppauge reciever (how is that working by the way? you really have 128 commands at your dispposal now) but messing with the IR file is a little daunting to some of us. I know you have done most of the work, but I also like the cleanness (maybe this is my real hang up) of having one set of remote codes (so it doesn't span accross other devices) that will be able to access all of the sagetv commands & then a reciever that can inject those commands and tie them directly to the functions without any middle man stuff. Just my thoughts, and thanks for all of your help. We will see where I end up I guess...

Were you then able to get all 128 codes for the system into your remote somehow? Were you able to do this with the second universal remote you bought? I have not seen a post from you that says what you did to get the codes, but I have not completly exhausted your lessons yet, O' wise & magnificent techy teacher.

[Opus4]

First, I don't know anything about the Harmony remotes. And, I pointed you to that other site not to get a specific setup for SageTV, but for their possible help regarding Harmony usage in general & perhaps help setting up a device with all the available commands/buttons you want to use. I think there are a few people around here using a Harmony remote, so maybe they'll chime in.

Originally Posted by TheraEdge

Could you eleborate a little on RC5? I assume that is a standard for codes for IR devices that remote controls for companies have to register for, and you say that there are 128 codes for each system # but 32 system numbers doesn't seem like it would be enough for all the different companies and devices out there. Are there other types of system codes other than RC5?

There is no single standard IR protocol & RC5 just happens to be one of many protocols a remote can use. I really meant my RC5 comment to mean that if you are using a USB-UIRT, you shouldn't worry about some specific protocol but focus on just having it emit something for all the buttons you want to use. (The reason RC5 is important to me is that it is is the only IR protocol that the Hauppauge receiver can decode & since that is the receiver I use...)

- Andy

[TheraEdge]

Originally Posted by Opus4

There is no single standard IR protocol & RC5 just happens to be one of many protocols a remote can use. I really meant my RC5 comment to mean that if you are using a USB-UIRT, you shouldn't worry about some specific protocol but focus on just having it emit something for all the buttons you want to use. (The reason RC5 is important to me is that it is is the only IR protocol that the Hauppauge receiver can decode & since that is the receiver I use...)

- Andy

Yes, this I understand and I have started to delv into the forum over at remote central. So, I was just wondering how you were able to expand on the IR codes that you could directly program with your Hauppauge remote. You were able to expand the IR file that the Hauppauge software uses, but how did you get the rest of the IR codes behond that 45 to your usinversal remote? I do understand what you are trying to tell me, and perhaps it is painful to some that I am not off trying to find a couple of remotes that will work for me, but I was trying to get a code set put together for this remote that will work for both UIRT users as well as hauppauge users and possibly upload it to the harmony site for other users (will require a note that it requires modification of hauppauge's IR file or a UIRT (or IR man also I believe) that can send the codes directly to Sage. So, do tell, how did you do it? I read that you had a remote on order with an attachment cord to be able to edit the extra remote then program your MX-700 with. Were you able to access all 128 codes through that?

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by TheraEdge

So, I was just wondering how you were able to expand on the IR codes that you could directly program with your Hauppauge remote. You were able to expand the IR file that the Hauppauge software uses, but how did you get the rest of the IR codes behond that 45 to your usinversal remote?

For a JP1-capable remote, you can program the thing directly with whatever codes you want. The same is probably true of Pronto remotes. My MX-700 is incapable of learning new RC5 codes correctly since it cannot learn both states of the toggle bit code; instead, I had to do some trial & error to find preprogrammed devices in the MX-700's database that use RC5 style codes and then I used those devices in my remote. Those are the remotes I'm familiar with, since those are the ones I researched when trying to decide which one to use... and I didn't realize that limitaton of the MX-700 until after I bought it. But, I have it working just fine now, so it doesn't bother me too much.

- Andy

[TheraEdge]

Hehe, ahh, thanks? So, it looks like I would have to spend about $35 to get a JP1 programmable remote and the JP1 cable from BlueDo to do it that way. I am researching it farther, but in my mind was just thinking how it would be nice to have more personal control over my harmony remote, similar to what it looks like you get with the MX-700 and the pronto remotes, heck even the JP1 enabled remotes have that low level of programability then. The web interface is good, but not as good as it could be. Is there a software you need to get to use the JP1 remotes then? I didn't see anything mentioned on BlueDo, but that doesn't mean I didn't miss it.

[Opus4]

JP1 remote info
JP1 forums

I wasn't suggesting that you have to go out & get one... I was just answering your question about how to program such codes into some remote. All I know about regarding that are JP1, Pronto, or MX-700 remotes.

- Andy

[TheraEdge]

Woohoo! OK, I'm back to bother Opus4 some more, hehe. Anyone else could help out to, but Opus has been very good to me . Anyway, I found out that the Harmony remotes are able to input Pronto codes, and then when finding that page found to other types of input available as well. 'Infrared Key Code' & 'IrSequence'. Also the input section for the pronto code has 2 fields. The first is 'Data Type', which is prefilled in with pronto, and you have to type it out, it isn't as simple as a pull down list (one of the big problems with the Harmony remote conifuration web page!) and then there is a field for 'Data Value' Unfortunatly there is no documentation on the site for how to uitilize these fields to enter what you want. I suppose they must assume you know what you are doing if you are fiddling here. Anyway, looks promising. So much for my update on where I am.

My real question for Opus4 was when you were configuring the IR file for the Hauppauge remote did you start with the newer 45 button Hauppauge file or did you start with the silver buttoned remote with less buttons? If you didn't start with the 45 button remote, doesn't this mean some of your codes will probably function differently if you wanted to utilize that remote? Or did you assign all functions outside of device code 31? What I am trying to do is set sage up to be able to use a Hauppauge remote (even the 45 button one) the same as if I was using my universal remote to control it.

If that is the case does anyone have the irremote.ini file for the 45 button remote prior to any modifications done to it so I can play with it from there? (Oops just found those in your other post Opus4 I know, I haven't read everything yet, but most of it is just going to give me back ground, I am into a whole new problem. Hope I can get somewhere for future users so they don't have to go through this too.) OK, so after looking at that file I noticed that it looks like the 45 button remote is under [HCWPVR2] and it looks like this is using device code 30 then? So the 45 button remote doesn't actually expand on the silver remotes keys? It uses all new codes? So my hope of having my remote be compatible with hauppauge remotes may not be doable?

Opus, did you actually use more of the System Code 30 or 31 commands to finish up the functionality of sage TV or did you chose other codes? That is the way it seems in looking at your documentation of your process.

[Opus4]

I didn't start with either remote when I customized the ini file for my remote: I used what the MX-700 happened to have built in in terms of RC5 code-using devices. And I recommend using a different system code when adding your own codes -- such as when porgramming a JP1 remote, for example. By using a new system code, you won't interfere with the Hauppauge remotes... and hopefully it won't interfere with any of your other equipment.

The old & new Hauppauge remotes use different RC5 system codes (31 & 30, respectively), but some of their buttons are defined as the same button code, so while their IR codes do not interfere with each other, their button codes can.

But, again: you don't need to use the Hauppauge-style codes at all. You can use just about anything you can program into your remote, since you are using the USB-UIRT as your receiver.

- Andy

[TheraEdge]

Hmm, so I don't quite understand, even though they have different System Codes the command will still work between the systems? I did notice that command 12 was changed from one remote to the other. So why do you not recommend that I expand on the 45 codes of the hauppauge remote instead of doing another code? I like the idea of keeping it all on one remote, especially if my universal remote would take over it's functionality anyway.

You are saying though that you did not modify the Codes for any of the Hauppauge remotes then? (I am just concerned about the codes, not the functionallity as I want to try to match them when I set up my remote.)

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by TheraEdge

Hmm, so I don't quite understand, even though they have different System Codes the command will still work between the systems?

I'm not sure I understand that one... The IR code from the Hauppauge remote gets translated to a button code in the ini file, then that button code get translated to an action in the app's section of the ini file. But this is meaningless to you -- you aren't using the ini file with the USB-UIRT. Ignore the Hauppuage remote unless you want to use its receiver too. With the USB-UIRT receiver, you will either be using it directly with SageTV or via Girder. The Hauppuage receiver/software/ini file will not come into play.

Do you really plan to use the Hauppauge IR receiver? If not, don't worry about anything those remotes do or the ini file does. You don't need to worry about compatibility with either of those remotes, as you plan to add more buttons anyway.

Yes, if you really want to, you could use the RC5 IR protocol via the Pronto configuration files, but ignore everything in the irremote.ini file, as it won't make any difference to you.

Oh -- I just re-read the comment that you said you wanted to priovide something that other Harmony users could use with the Hauppauge receiver... that's up to you, but it will make your life more difficult, especially if you can't test it. The documentation in the first post of link #1 will tell you everything you need to know to extend irremote.ini... I just don't think it is worth your time when you aren't going to be using it.

You are saying though that you did not modify the Codes for any of the Hauppauge remotes then?

In my case, I am using the Hauppauge IR receiver... and no, I didn't mess with the original Hauppauge remote codes -- I can pick it up & it will control SageTV the same way you see in those files I posted.

- Andy

[TheraEdge]

Sigh, I know I must be frustrating you and just need to do some codes and be done with it, but I have already done this much work, and it is all in the hopes that I could provide the profile I come up with online for other Sage users or similar so they could use a hauppauge reciever or the hauppauge remote as a secondary kind of like all the other remotes we have even though we use universals, they still provide the same functionality. These people would need to work through the Hauppauge IR file which I won't be dealing with. To give you an idea of where I started, I wanted to find a remote profile that I would make sure would never interfere with another device. Basically a remote profile specifically for sage. Well, in the absence of this, I find picking a hauppauge remote for as many buttons as I can define (the same as the remote buttons) and then using the same profile to expand on this keeps me (or many other people that might use my profile) from interfering with other components. The Harmony database is a shambles for Sage and Hauppauge remotes, whoever they got profiles for these from did a nasty job. I wanted to try to help remedy some of this for sage.

I understand I don't need to deal with the irremote.ini file, but I am using it to figure out what codes I will program into my remote to match the Hauppauge remote functions. I see what you mean about the remotes on the different system codes though. You had set them up so the same key on them sends the same command from your file to the system. (I do understand, believe it or not, that this is something I do not need to concern myself with)

Originally Posted by Opus4

In my case, I am using the Hauppauge IR receiver... and no, I didn't mess with the original Hauppauge remote codes -- I can pick it up & it will control SageTV the same way you see in those files I posted.

- Andy

This is the functionality I am also looking for with my setup, but without the irremote.ini I will not have the dual(or more) functionality you do of being able to use additional IR codes to program your remote and assigning the hauppauge codes to the same command. My simple solution is to reuse the same buttons to allow most of the functionality of my universal one if a Hauppauge remote is used in a similar situation to mine.

Anyway, this is the way I want to do it. I hope I am not frustrating you to much. Hope it doesn't bother you that I want to give something back to these communities either. I mean look at all you do. Talk about community service, they give you any awards yet?

[mostlyfodder]

TheraEdge-
i'm using an MX-350 remote that i purchased from bluedo. i have a usb-uirt (don't use the hauppage receiver or remote anymore). i use girder with meedio and sage. i've owned many remotes and the mx-350 CAN handle the toggle bits, such as those broadcast by the hauppage (new) 45-button remote control. the mx-350 can broadcast in IR and RF, and it has an optional RF base station that can broadcast specific IR signals to specific devices via wired IR emitters.

i'm really happy with my mx-350. best remote i've used thus far. i have some posts over at meedio.com (do a search for my username mostlyfodder and the "mx-350") if you want to check it out. it's a lot like the mx-700..

-fodder

ps- i was considering getting the harmony remote, but didn't.

[Opus4]

This is the functionality I am also looking for with my setup, but without the irremote.ini I will not have the dual(or more) functionality you do of being able to use additional IR codes to program your remote and assigning the hauppauge codes to the same command. My simple solution is to reuse the same buttons to allow most of the functionality of my universal one if a Hauppauge remote is used in a similar situation to mine.

If you want the Hauppauge remote to be able to be used w/o interfering with your custom config, then I suggest selecting a different system code (something in the upper-mid 20s in order to minimize the chance of conflicting with some other device) and leaving the Hauppauge remote codes alone.

I think you said that you found a way to program the Harmony directly w/any RC5 code you want, so just pick some system code & start adding in command codes.

You will have a problem having your setup mimic the Hauppauge remote anyway... they now have 2 remotes w/2 sets of codes. If you mimic one, it won't work correctly with the other. You would need 2 separate configs to have it replace both remotes. So, you can either make multiple configurations, or simply create a single completely new 'device'.

I hope I am not frustrating you to much.

No... I just thought you were making it more difficult than it needed to be by trying to work within the confines of RC5 and its toggle-code nature.

Once you've got it programmed into the remote & if the remote does the toggle code correctly, you'll have to teach each button to SageTV or Girder twice. And, if it doesn't do the toggle code correctly, you really don't want anyone to use it with the Hauppauge receiver.

- Andy

[TheraEdge]

No, no, no, that is the whole point. I want to set up my remote to use the same keys in it's profile like the Hauppauge remote, then use the unused codes of the profile to add additional commands outside of the Hauppauge ones. So if you push play on the hauppauge remote it acts just like you hit play on the universal. That way if someone else uses the profile, and still have their hauppauge remote around it will work too...I know it is a simple thing, but hey, it is nice.

Ooh, good idea...I was thinking I would only be able to match the default buttons and elaborate on one remote, but I could add all 3 as different profiles (Duh to me) anyway, I will see how it goes, because I have to actually sent Harmony an email with what I want done to my account and they will do it, hehe.

OK, as long as I am not bothering you then I am determined to do this the way I want to, hehe.

So, this toggle thing, do I understand correctly, it is actually the way you get past only 64 commands? The other 64 (64-128) are the toggle code? I know the remote is pretty advanced in the amount of differnt frequency etc...IR signals it can send, but we will see.

Thanks again for all the help.

[Opus4]

I'm not sure if there was another question beyond this one:

So, this toggle thing, do I understand correctly, it is actually the way you get past only 64 commands? The other 64 (64-128) are the toggle code?

No, that's not what I mean by the toggle code. For a little more detail of the RC5 protocol (more than is needed for what either of us are doing, but it is still interesting to get more details), see this site: Philips RC-5 Protocol , which I see was recently updated. The protocol section shows what all the bits in the code actually mean, how it gets an extra bit for those commands greater than 63, and what the toggle bit is -- note the section about the "3rd bit". Again, I don't think you'll need to know the bit layout, but who knows if such info could be useful some day, though I'm sure it will never come up in Trivial Pursuit.

Every command uses the toggle bit to distinguish successive presses of the same button & the Hauppauge software uses that bit to determine whether you have pressed & held the button or whether you are letting it go & pressing it again.

The togle bit can be a pain, since if you get RC5 to work properly in your remote, you have to teach every button to SageTV or Girder twice. If you don't get it to work properly, it won't work 100% correctly with the Hauppauge software.

- Andy

[TheraEdge]

Hmm, Oh, I see, the toggle bit means that it would appear to sage to be a second code. So Sage will care less if it is a repeated key press or not? So does this mean that with Sage I can't hold down the button or I would risk it taking that as however many keypresses and executing them until it caught up? Instead of just stopping when you let off?

Oh, and thanks for the extra info.

[Opus4]

They are two separate codes -- each button can transmit two differnt codes, as described in the link I posted above. SageTV sees each as a distinct code, as if they belonged to completely different buttons. Every time the button is pressed, it switches from one code to the other -- it doesn't matter whether you continue holding it. If you press the button multiple times in a row, using A1 & A2 as the codes for one button:

Press & Release: A1
Press & R: A2
Press & Hold: A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1
P & H: A2 A2 A2 A2 A2 A2 A2
P & H: A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1 A1
P & R: A2
P & R: A1

and so on. It simply toggles between the two codes (thus the reference to it having a "toggle" bit in the code). BUT, the toggle bit is reset if you press a completely different button, so if A & B are 2 different buttons, you get:

Press A: A1
Press A again: A2
Press B: B1
Press A: A1
Press B: B1

In terms of usage with SageTV or Girder, all you have to know is that you have to teach each button twice w/o pressing any other remote button in between the two learning sessions.

Edit: something changed in your previous post, so I don't know if I answered it. I don't use a USB-UIRT as my IR receiver with SageTV, but I doubt it will keep a long buffer and keep acting on the repeated codes long after you release the button - it _should_ stop when the remote stops transmitting.

- Andy