MCE2005 = Sage 2.0 killer?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by erics

1. No DTV/HDTV support. THIS IS HUGE. Sage's biggest Pro right now will be it's BIGGEST Con in the future. At the end of 2006, those 5 PCI analog tuners in you box are going to be about as useful as a 9600 baud ISA modem. We all know DTV/HDTV has been mandated by law. Whether or not it's one or two or three years away, it doesn't matter. It is coming and it's not going away. Frey better get its roadmap together or risk being runover by MS and Tivo (with their new HDTivo units), and other newcomers

First of, it's going to be a LONG, time before we loose SD analog outputs. There are too many people with analog sets and the providers aren't going to abandon them.

Likewise it will be a long time before SD analog outputs are a real handicap. The VAST majority of content broadcast today is SD, and much if it is quite old. Basically everything that was produced before a few years ago is SD, and will never be converted.

On the flip side, I agree that Frey needs to add HD support, but until we see something other than MCE support it it won't be a killer.

Truthefully on the HD on PC front, I don't have a very optomistic view. Currently (unless you're blessed) you're limited to OTA HD, of which there is precious little worthwhile content (IMO). Unless we see a CableCard (for cable) or CAM (for satellite) compatible card, I see the PC PVR dieing along with analog SDTV. The sad truth is that nothing can compete with an HDTivo or Dish 921 right now as far a PVRing HD, and I don't see anything changing that any time soon. I hope I'm wrong

3. No inexpensive H/W client support. This is going to be a killer for Sage. Tens of thousands of homes have xBoxs in them fully networked and connected to A/V centers with digital toslink and HiDef component outs.

It may have HD outs, but what are the odds that it will actually output HD, slim. And AFIAK it won't be able to play HD.

[SHS]

That dosen't apply to analog recording erics this BS is something that HBO start all on it own.
That new FEDERAL LAW only apply to HDTV.

[AJ Bertelson]

The RS-5000HD has HD recording technology but it is pretty much razor-bleeding edge rite now but it works and it works really well from what I have heard.

They are adding direct show interface to it.

[erics]

Originally Posted by jettman

erics, thanks for the info. What you put together was very informative.

Hey Jettman. No problem. I'm hapy you thought it was useful. I like new toys, and right now, MCE 2K5 is my new toy.

I hope everyone doesn't think I'm bashing Sage. I love Sage, but competition is good for us consumers. Hopefully it will only make SageTV better, faster, and cheaper.

[phenixdragon]

TiVo suggestions suck. The only thing mine show are shows that I have already rated, nothing new.

But what I think can hurt anyone, not just Sage, is the extenders. This is really the only thing that is making me think of dumping Sage is because the Xbox Extender will free up jacks on my TV and it will remove another box on my rack. Even the MediaMVP is not appealing to me, I would just like to have my Sage server and my Xbox just reading the files from the network and functioning like Sage Client.

Maybe someone can come up with it but I doubt anyone will.

[erics]

Originally Posted by salsbst

I don't think federal law will prevent us continuing to record analog video anytime soon. I'm happy enough with my PVR as it is, that I can reject all of the restrictions that come with digital video, until such time as the FCC takes it head out of its donkey.

Salsbst, you are correct. Federal law won't prevent us from recording analog video EVER. But you seem to be missing the point. The broadcast flag applies ONLY TO DIGITAL content...ie. DTV/HDTV. I guess the feeling is that analog TV looks like shit anyways so who cares if you record it. The problem you're gonna have is at the end of 2006 because there won't be any more analog TV for you to record. That's the point I was making. Yes, you can still record using SageTV, but you will need to buy/rent 1 Digital-to-Analog STB for every tuner card in your PC. Having Sage directly support Digital ATSC tuner cards would be a much cheaper and simplier solution of us customers.

Also, I don't know exactly how the broadcast flag is going to be implemented. You see, I'm not actually lawyer so I haven't read any of the FCC filings myself. All I know is what I've read second-hand. And from what I've read, Microsoft MCE 2K5 WILL record and playback HBO broadcasts protected by the flag. The protection flag actually only comes into play when you want transfer that video to ANOTHER COMPUTER or device for playback. A MS rep or a MS mod said that current generation MCE extenders and Portable Media Centers (PMPs) also won't playback protected shows, but that MS is releasing a firmware to change this behavior on Extenders (not sure about PMPs).

Originally Posted by stanger89

First of, it's going to be a LONG, time before we loose SD analog outputs. There are too many people with analog sets and the providers aren't going to abandon them.

Look Stranger89, I'm not going to argue whether or not this is going to be enforced at the end of 2006. I don't know. All I'm saying is that it's now FEDERAL LAW mandated by the FCC that all analog tv broadcasts COMPLETELY END BY THE END OF 2006. This also applies to cable TV. You can argue that it won't happen or whatever... I'm just saying it's on the books. It just seems to me that some people here are just advocating a strategy of "sticking your head in the sand" and just pretending it's not going to happen. LOL, I don't think that's a very healthy strategy. Things change... it's a fact of life. People, animals, and every comercial business must adapt to change or perish.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Likewise it will be a long time before SD analog outputs are a real handicap. The VAST majority of content broadcast today is SD, and much if it is quite old. Basically everything that was produced before a few years ago is SD, and will never be converted.

Stranger, I think you are confusing the situation. First of all, I also DO NOT think analog outputs located on the back your TV, VCR, STB or computer are going away anytime soon. I never said this nor is the FCC mandating this. Likewise, your Analog TV isn't going to become a paperweight at the end of 2006. That would be crazy and leave millions of American's really pissed off. You are confusing the TRANSPORT BROADCAST medium (analog Vs. digital data) with the HARDWARE DISPLAY device (the physical TV). The FCC is mandating that the BROADCASTING SIGNAL only transmit DIGITAL data after 2006. It is not mandating that all electronics in the United States of America be required to receive, decode and display digital data in a 100% digital path. That would be insane! But what will be required to use your analog TV is a Digital STB with ANALOG OUTPUTS. Do you understand?

Also, your comment about all TV programs produced in the past never getting converted to digital is really confusing to me. First of all, just because something exists in an analog format (like a 70mm film) doesn't mean it can't be broadcast over an digital transmission. And just because something exists in an analog format doesn't mean it can't be converted to digital in real-time. I mean jeeze, even a $99 PVR250 can do this. Studios and networks DON'T HAVE TO pre-convert their entire video libraries into hundreds of billions of giga-quads of data for storage on harddrives. In fact, they won't do anything differently then what they're doing... Each network's HQ (abc, nbc, cbs) will queue up their program material like just like they do now, whether it's digital tape of a 35mm film reel doesn't matter... then they will digitize that data IN REAL TIME (as they are CURRENTLY DOING!) in order to beam it up to a satallite. Then all the local affiliate networks around the country will receive that transmission via a sat up-link and rebroadcast it via their antennas as digital data instead of analog. Yeah, there is probably lots of "work" that happens to the signal before it's rebroadcast locally, but the point I'm making is that it isn't necessary to pre-convert every single TV show, music video, motion picture or commercial to digital and store it on a hard drive forever for later broadcast over DTV. Does that make sense?

Originally Posted by stanger89

It may have HD outs, but what are the odds that it will actually output HD, slim. And AFIAK it won't be able to play HD.

I know I mentioned HiDef connection between xBox and TV. Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that the xBox Media Center Extenders will play recorded HD material from a MCE 2K5 box. I don't know if the XBox will or will not play HD material, but that's not the point I was making. The point I was making is that MCE will offer several cheap hardware client alternatives while Sage does not. Whether or not MCE Extenders will do HD is moot. The fact that cheap H/W clients even exist is a PRO for MCE and a CON for Sage since Sage officially supports none. That's the point I was making. I WANT Sage to support a cheap H/W client like the MVP or the XBox. It's cheaper than building PC's for every room and buying extra Sage client licenses.

These are the key points I was making about the xBox Extenders:
a) XBoxs are cheap

b) LOTS and lots of ppl ALREADY own xBoxs. To these ppl, the Extender software will be like getting a fully functioning HTPC for $60. Do you see the appeal???

c) most of these xBoxs are already hookup to up to TVs, HiFi systems, and local LAN and Internet. In otherwords, networking them to an MCE box and getting it connected to the entertainment system would be trivial for the average American family. Contrast this to Mom and Dad trying to build a HTPC from scratch, loading Sage Client software, getting optical digial out from a soundcard or mobo, trying to get Svideo or VGA out to the TV, trying to install and configure WLAN... So do you see my point? It's simply easier with the xBox because it's ready setup in most homes and fully configured. This is why Sage needs MVP support ASAP!

d) if you already own an xBox, and you were planning to either buy a new PC or build yourself a new PC, and you were planning to use a Microsoft OS anyways, and you were not planning to steal it or pirate it off the Intenet... (huge run on sentence) then why in the hell would you NOT buy a MCE machine if it cost the same as a non-MCE machine even if you never planned to use the MCE portion. And why would someone buy a non MCE version of WinXp for DOUBLE the price of WinXP MCE? No sane American is going to pay MORE for LESS. It just unAmerican. I understand you guys are incredibly loyal to Sage to a fault. But if you honestly can't acknowledge the common sense decision I think most Americans would make given this senaro, then I see it's kind of pointless of me trying to explain my position.

Basically I see what MS is trying to do with MCE. It's just what they did with Internet Explorer. Eventually it will be packaged standard with every single MS OS. It will be there by default where you use it or not for free. Why pay $35 for Netscape when IE was free? Because Netscape was better? Yeah right, we all see how that turned out in the end. This is MS's goal. Even if its product is inferior (which in this case is highly arguable if you examine the facts objectively), MS's strategy is to win by default. Once MCE becomes 100% free (as in included with every MS OS), Tivo/Replay/Sage/Snapstream/SlimDevices/Roku/Creative and any other multimedia company is going to have a serious problem. Do I condon this tactic? No, but it you know it's coming.

Originally Posted by SHS

That dosen't apply to analog recording erics this BS is something that HBO start all on it own.
That new FEDERAL LAW only apply to HDTV.

I totally agree it's bullshit. And I know the law only applies to digital broadcast content. Did you think I said it applied to Analog broadcasts? If analog wasn't gonna be banned in 2 years, this would be a non-issue.

Also, I'm not sure if it's strictly limited to HDTV specifically as you stated, or if it actually applies to DTV also. I was under the impression it applied to both DTV and HDTV.

BTW, just so that everyone knows my position... I hate DRM period! That's why I would never in a million years EVER EVER EVER buy music from Apple's ITunes store or Music Match or Napster. When I have a clear choice, as I do when it comes to buying music, I'd never support the greedy bastards who are whoring bastardized copies of music for MORE THAN RETAIL PRICE. In the end, you are paying a premium price for lossy music that you don't even really own!!! If you really owned it, you could copying it, burn it, transcode it, and play it on any device you owned and without restraints or quality loss. No, what you are really doing is renting that DRM protected music for more than the cost of the REAL THING! That's insane.

WHEW! I'm all typed out... No more typing!!!

[stanger89]

First, calm down.

Originally Posted by erics

Look Stranger89, I'm not going to argue whether or not this is going to be enforced at the end of 2006. I don't know. All I'm saying is that it's now FEDERAL LAW mandated by the FCC that all analog tv broadcasts COMPLETELY END BY THE END OF 2006. This also applies to cable TV. You can argue that it won't happen or whatever... I'm just saying it's on the books.

I never disagreed with you about this, what I said was that we won't be loosing SD analog outputs any time soon.

Stranger, I think you are confusing the situation. First of all, I DON'T think analog outputs located on the back your TV, VCR, STB or computer are going away anytime som either. I never said this nor is the FCC mandating this. Likewise, your Analog TV isn't going to become a paperweight at the end of 2006. That would be crazy and leave millions of American's really pissed off. You are confusing the TRANSPORT BROADCAST (analog Vs. digital data) medium with the HARDWARE DISPLAY device (the physical TV). The FCC is mandating that the BROADCASTING SIGNAL only transmit DIGITAL data after 2006. It is not mandating that all electronics in the United States of America be required to receive, decode and display that data in a 100% digital path. That would be insane! But what will required to use your analog TV is a Digital STB with ANALOG OUTPUTS. Do you understand?

Yes I understand, and that's exactly what I said, that we won't be loosing the analog outputs, I never said anything about whether or not analog broadcasts would stop.

Also, your comment about all TV programs produced in the past never getting converted to digital is really confusing to me. First of all, just because something exists in an analog format (like a 70mm film) doesn't mean it can't be broadcast over an digital transmission.

I never said anything about analog, what I said was that the vast majority of content is SD (digital can be SD) and that it won't can't be converted to HD. So, since the vast majority of content is SD, and will stay that way, not much will be lost when it is converted to analog and output over S-Video. It will be exactly as it is now with digital cable and satellite.

And just because something exists in an analog format doesn't mean it can't be converted to digital in real-time. I mean jeeze, even a $99 PVR250 can do this. Studios and networks DON'T HAVE TO preconvert their entire video libraries into hundreds of billions of giga-quads of data for storage on a harddrive. They will do exactly what they are doing now... The network H.Q. (abc, nbc, cbs) will queue up their program material like just like they do now, whether it's digital tape of a 35mm film reel doesn't matter... then they will digitize that data IN REALTIME (as they are CURRENTLY DOING!) in order to beam it up to a satallite. Then all the local affiliate networks around the country will receive that transmission via a sat up-link, and rebroadcast it via their antenna. Yeah, there is probably some "work" that happens to the signal before it's rebroadcast locally, but the point I'm making is that it isn't necessary to convert every single TV show, music video, motion picture or commercial into digital and store it on a hard drive forever for later broadcast over DTV. Does that make sense?

You're confusing my SD vs HD comments with analog vs digital. I'm sure you know this, but even after the whole broadcast system go digital, lots of stuff will still be SD.

Also, I'm not sure if it's strictly limited to HDTV specifically as you stated, or if it actually applies to DTV also. I was under the impression it applied to both DTV and HDTV.

AFIAK, the law (broadcast flag correct?) only applies to OTA HD. Cable and satellite have their own systems. They are allowed to encrypt broadcasts, and to limit who/what can receive those broadcasts. And that's where it get's sticky, neither the cable nor sat companies have any interest nor any intention of letting a PC recieve/decode anything. Yeah there are QAM capable HD cards that can receive HD over cable, but that only works because the FCC mandated that cable companies had to re-broadcast local channels and couldn't encrypt them (some companies still do).

The future of digital reception in a PC is not very bright from what I've seen.

[erics]

Originally Posted by stanger89

First, calm down.

No, no, no, you misunderstood. I'm not angry or excited. I guess it's just a bad choice of phrasing on my part. I'm sorry. It's so easy to be misunderstood on the Web because it's hard to convery emotion. In my case, I'm not being emotional at all. Sorry if that threw you.

[stanger89]

Not a prob. The ALL CAPS TEXT threw me It does get tricky to convey (or not convey) the more subtle aspects of English on the web.

[kny3twalker]

also 80% of the public must be capable of receiving digital broadcast
and with most people without cable or satellite
get analogue broadcast
I very much doubt the conversion to digital will happen immediately or even close to the original date that Congress has planned

I watched the debate on CSPAN a couple years ago

Ok, they have a date planned but they still need people to have access to the broadcast

with cable or satellite no big deal
you can get a box

but for people outside of cable providers reach or cannot afford satellite the country will have to wait

During the talks on CSPAN, they discussed ideas of short term simulcast
of analogue and digital but the problems were with limitations on air waves bandwidth


it was quite interesting
but I doubt our elected officials will shut down analogue broadcast to the public if not 80% of the public is ready for the change
not if they wish to continue to be elected

oh and by the way they did discuss the broadcast flag system as well

[erics]

Ok, I read your post. Now I see where you are coming from... as long as you use the analog outs on the STB, Sage doesn't need to support DTV/HDTV. Well, I don't know if that's exactly true but I see you point. The problem is this setup is expensive for the consumer. Now you have to buy/rent a separate STB for each tuner in Sage. $5/month x 12 mo. x 3 tuners = $180 per year continuous service charge JUST FOR THE STBs. It would be cheaper for the consumer if Sage supported digital tuner cards. Also, you don't know how copy protection will implimented on analog outs of the STB... like they are with VCRs... lots of ppl want to use the tuners in their VCR's as passthrough to their TV but can't because of Macrovision.

Originally Posted by stanger89

AFIAK, the law (broadcast flag correct?) only applies to OTA HD. Cable and satellite have their own systems. They are allowed to encrypt broadcasts, and to limit who/what can receive those broadcasts. And that's where it get's sticky, neither the cable nor sat companies have any interest nor any intention of letting a PC recieve/decode anything. Yeah there are QAM capable HD cards that can receive HD over cable, but that only works because the FCC mandated that cable companies had to re-broadcast local channels and couldn't encrypt them (some companies still do).

I don't know whether or not this is true. I read directly in the FCC FAQ that cable is NOT exempt. Decision is still pending. I wish I could find that URL again... I did a Google search and now I can't find it. But I've also read something different on AVS (some of those guys really know what they're talking about). They were saying the ruling has already been made and cable and satallite companies are not exempt. The reason that cable companies currently are able to scramble their DTV and HDTV content and charge you EXTRA MONEY to receive watch is because of the way the ruling is currently written. Basically, during this transistion period all broadcasters MUST provide their entire user base with the major networks in digial form at the base fee (if any fee exists). BUT if a channel is currently offered in both analog and digital (like NBC, CBS, etc...), the broadcaster currently has the choice to offer the analog version at the base fee while charging a premium for the digital content and encrypting it. After 2006, this will not be legal. Cable companies will have to provided their user bases "basic service" which will include DTV/HDTV broadcasts of the major networks (premium/cable channels are not included). Now like I said, I don't know if this is true. This is just what I've read on AVS.

[kny3twalker]

Likewise, your Analog TV isn't going to become a paperweight at the end of 2006. That would be crazy and leave millions of American's really pissed off. You are confusing the TRANSPORT BROADCAST medium (analog Vs. digital data) with the HARDWARE DISPLAY device (the physical TV). The FCC is mandating that the BROADCASTING SIGNAL only transmit DIGITAL data after 2006. It is not mandating that all electronics in the United States of America be required to receive, decode and display digital data in a 100% digital path. That would be insane! But what will be required to use your analog TV is a Digital STB with ANALOG OUTPUTS. Do you understand?

well I am saying that 80% of the public will have to able to receive the broadcast first

[mikejaner]

Wow. Alot of reading!!

I have a few points and ideas for how we will do this in the future.

Xbox Media Extender: Will not play Live TV from the MCE 2005 you are recording with. A big problem for alot of people.
Xbox Media Extender: Will not play HDTV recordings. A big problem for some people who have HDTV.

I think we are gonna see one of two things.

One, some manufacturer is going to come out with an affordable card which is capable of grabbing HDTV output via Component. 1080i shouldn't be too difficult to capture and recompress to mpeg2. I know they have cards today, but they are expensive.

Two, maybe some company will come out with a tranciever, which will convert Component output to an ATSC compliant digital stream. Then all of us with ATSC cards could record a fixed channel using Sage 3.0, etc...... and an IR/Serial/USB Blaster.

Just some thoughts.

[phenixdragon]

xbox.com says the Xbox Media Extender will play Live TV. Maybe you meant something else?

***edited***

Unless I am mistaken on what it says/means.

[mikejaner]

I stand corrected on that point. I read that somewhere, and should have checked. They are very elusive about the actual LiveTV, but I looked at their screenshots, and it appears to be an option in the menu. Anyways, I know for sure it can't handle HDTV.
Mike

[ruel]

Originally Posted by erics

Look Stranger89, I'm not going to argue whether or not this is going to be enforced at the end of 2006. I don't know. All I'm saying is that it's now FEDERAL LAW mandated by the FCC that all analog tv broadcasts COMPLETELY END BY THE END OF 2006. This also applies to cable TV. You can argue that it won't happen or whatever... I'm just saying it's on the books. It just seems to me that some people here are just advocating a strategy of "sticking your head in the sand" and just pretending it's not going to happen. LOL, I don't think that's a very healthy strategy. Things change... it's a fact of life. People, animals, and every comercial business must adapt to change or perish.

It's 2006 -- IF and it's a big IF -- if 85% of homes in the US are digital TV-capable homes for receiving terrestrial digital TV. The shutdown of terrestrial analog TV transmission broadcasts isn't going to happen unless the 85% reception requirement is met -- or if the Congress changes the requirement or if the FCC clarifies how to count that 85% requirement. If you're counting digital TV sets, we are no where near the 85% requirement. So, the analog terrestrial TV shutdown date is a moving target. Until then you're going to have local TV stations transmitting simultaneous broadcasts in both analog and digital. Some people in Congress and at the FCC are trying to see if they can lock down the date to sometime in 2009 and they also want to say that since most of the US subscribes to cable TV or satellite TV then we are closer to the 85% where those homes can be technically said to have digital TV access even if it has to be downconverted via cable TV or satellite TV to good old analog TV sets.

The UK has moved their analog terrestrial TV shutdown date to 2012. Various TV industry officials, experts and commentators are saying 2012 is probably more realistic for the US as far as analog terrestrial shutdown being possible in the US. But the federal government here in the US wants to auction off the analog TV airwaves as soon as possible in order because of the money involved. So, the change to 2009 may have a chance. The FCC is already setting up rules for reclaiming at least channels in the 52-69 range.

But it's like who cares about rabbit-ears antenna analog TV being shut down if you are part of the 80%-90% who subscribe to cable (or satellite TV) and have the analog TV sets in your home hooked up to cable (or to sat TV). For the consumer, the terrestrial analog TV shutdown primarily applies to over-the-air broadcast TV since you'll still be able to hook up your analog TV set to cable for at least basic cable, basic extended cable or digital cable. The cable TV and satellite TV companies must be salivating and waiting for when the remaining 15%-20% of people in the US who aren't already paying subscribers will be forced to decide whether they want to subscribe to cable to continue using their analog TV sets or whether to buy a new digital TV set.

ruel

[SHS]

They don't need buy a new Digital TV set just any External Digital Tuner but have look at cost of thing.

[salsbst]

Salsbst, you are correct. Federal law won't prevent us from recording analog video EVER. But you seem to be missing the point. The broadcast flag applies ONLY TO DIGITAL content...ie. DTV/HDTV.

Hopefully we're on the same page now? At least you understand that I'm not missing the point (even if I see the point quite differently than you do)?

...competition is good for us consumers...

Which is exactly why I think Microsoft's presence in the market is bad for consumers, and why every time the FCC rules in favor of cable companies over satellite, they are doing a disservice to the people.

advocating a strategy of "sticking your head in the sand"

Absolutely! If consumers don't buy into the restrictions, then they simply won't happen. That said, I don't have much faith in Americans to understand complex issues. It's pretty much a Homer Simpson populace at this point, and thus hopeless.

80% of the public must be capable of receiving digital broadcast

Depends on your definition of broadcast. If you mean "signal", yes. If you mean broadcast, then no.

[kny3twalker]

Depends on your definition of broadcast. If you mean "signal", yes. If you mean broadcast, then no.

two or three years ago when I watched this on CSPAN
got to cut me some slack there
trying to word it the best I can
LOL

It's 2006 -- IF and it's a big IF -- if 85% of homes in the US are digital TV-capable homes for receiving terrestrial digital TV. The shutdown of terrestrial analog TV transmission broadcasts isn't going to happen unless the 85% reception requirement is met -- or if the Congress changes the requirement or if the FCC clarifies how to count that 85% requirement. If you're counting digital TV sets, we are no where near the 85% requirement. So, the analog terrestrial TV shutdown date is a moving target. Until then you're going to have local TV stations transmitting simultaneous broadcasts in both analog and digital. Some people in Congress and at the FCC are trying to see if they can lock down the date to sometime in 2009 and they also want to say that since most of the US subscribes to cable TV or satellite TV then we are closer to the 85% where those homes can be technically said to have digital TV access even if it has to be downconverted via cable TV or satellite TV to good old analog TV sets.

I really thought it was 80 but I could believe 85%

[salsbst]

I'd cut you slack if I didn't think the distinction was important. No hard feelings?