Dedicated SAGE TV-OUT solutions?

[casperse]

Hi All

As everybody knows The PVR-350 only recognizes overlay images from media playback, in conjunction with its hardware MPEG-2 decoder, for use with its TV-OUT.
As a result, the PVR-350 will only show MPEG-2 output through that TV-OUT.

So what Hardware do I need to get a Dedicated TV-out for SAGE?

I want to have a normal Desktop XP and at the same time have SAGE TV running on a dedicated TV-OUT!

In that way I can still use the PC as a normal PC and I can use a remote to control SAGE on the televison for recordings etc!

I Hope somebody can suggest a Setup or Hardware that can accomplish this?

Best Regards
Casperse

[mls]

Sounds like you want to do what I do (use the computer on a monitor with SageTV always running on the TV out). To do that you'll need a video card that has dual output cababilities. nVidia 5700 or ATI 9600 may be a good starting point for video cards (just don't get the low end SE/LE models).

You can use the S-video out, or if you have an HDTV you could use the other VGA or DVI outputs (with approriate adapters if needed).

Then just set up the second output (the one for the TV) to be Extended Desktop in the video properties settings for the card. Only problem is most cards will not do VMR9 well on the secondary out so you might not be able to use the fancy light blue semi-see thru menues. Overlay should work ok though (with fully transparent menues if you want).

Drag SageTV over to the secondary (the TV) and set it to full screen mode.

Depending which vid card you get, you'll have to play with the various resolution, aspect, and overscan settings (both in the vid card properties and in the SageTV settings) to get everything to fit your TV screen.

Also, depending which remote you will be using, you may want to look thru the FAQ section to find out how to use the remote with SageTV when it does not have focus (like if your web browsing on the monitor and want to change channels with the remote without things getting confused).

Since there are a large number of variables involved, it would be hard to give any exact setup instructions, but hopefully the above will be enough to get you started. You may find more info in the FAQ's or also in the new SageTV manual (there's a LOT of usefull tips hiding in those).

Hope that's enough to get you going.

[casperse]

Thanks for your Quick feedback MLS!

I guess I dont really need a Hauppage 350 then .
Since I would need a Graphic card with support for VMR9 to get the dedicated TV output I want.

I had hoped that there was some special Graphic card with a "real" dedicated TV-OUT to a secondary output supported by SageTV.

My setup:
A FAST Mail/Web/FTP/SQL - Server that I want to use as a TV recorder Home entertainment center (Since its always running) and by using a "TV Modulator" I can add the video output from the PC to my existing cable tv. I would then be able to tune in to the "Servers TV-out" channel on any of the TV´s i have connected in my house.
BUT I will still need to access the server therefore I need a dedicated TV output to keep the Desktop for admin tasks etc like you .

Is ATI better than NVIDIA? I need the best possible Video Out - I dont care about playing games etc....
Can you recommend a specific card?

When having the SAGE TV on a secondary output how can I maintain the remote control to this "window"?
Is this what you meant by saying:

"how to use the remote with SageTV when it does not have focus"

I never really thought about this. Boy this is really not going to be easy

Your help is much appriciated!

[mls]

If you use an RF Modulator you will get much lower quality than you would with any other "wired" output from the main computer. Also, you would need an RF type remote control or you would not be able to change what you are watching or FF/RW and everything else would have to be controlled somehow from the main computer.

You could set things up that way, but as I said, the picture quality will not be as good. In that case you may want to use the PVR-350 for the video out since it provides better than you might get from a normal video card.

It sounds like you want to do something different than I origianally understood. I thought you wanted to do what I'm doing... running SageTV out to the TV at the same time as still using the computer monitor for other things from the same video card.

You can use the PVR-350 for the TV out, and just about any video card for the computer instead if you don't want to mess with other fancy video cards. There have been some stability problems with the PVR-350 though. Look around the forum and you'll find more info about that.

So, for what you want to do the PVR-350 may be the easiest way for you. However, there's still the problem of how to control anything from wherever you are watching on other TV's. That's were things are going to become really complicated.

If you're gonna use a IR type of remote, then you'll end up having to have remote extenders. If you can find an RF type remote you'd probably be limited to only a 30 foot range. Either way you'd have to get into a lot of the extra remote setup stuff (which can also be found elsewhere in the forum).

There are others that are working on adding MVP support to SageTV, however to use that you'd need either a wired or wireless LAN setup. You might want to take a look at Hauppauge MVP to get some idea what that is about.

I'm sure someone else will eventually come along in the forum here to give you some other (maybe better) ideas.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by casperse

When having the SAGE TV on a secondary output how can I maintain the remote control to this "window"?
Is this what you meant by saying:

"how to use the remote with SageTV when it does not have focus"

If you are using the Hauppauge remote, see link #3 in my sig lines, below. Read a bit carefully, as there are 2 ways to do that: 1) use an old version of the Hauuapuge IR software and my SendMessage utility, or 2) install the updated IR software and use its built-in SendMsg capability.

- Andy

[mls]

Hey Opus4 -

Go back up and read the middle part of his post above (think #3) about using an RF Modulator and viewing from other TV's in the house.

Got any ideas how to rig that set up?

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by mls

Hey Opus4 -

Go back up and read the middle part of his post above (think #3) about using an RF Modulator and viewing from other TV's in the house.

Got any ideas how to rig that set up?

I didn't have anything to say about it the first time I replied, so why would you think I would after looking at it again? I have no idea about something like that, but it gives you no way to change the channel or change which recording is being played. To me, that's what SageTVClient is for: watch individual shows at locations away from the server.

- Andy

[mls]

Originally Posted by casperse

My setup:
A FAST Mail/Web/FTP/SQL - Server that I want to use as a TV recorder Home entertainment center (Since its always running) and by using a "TV Modulator" I can add the video output from the PC to my existing cable tv. I would then be able to tune in to the "Servers TV-out" channel on any of the TV´s i have connected in my house.

Unless you REALLY, REALLY know what you are doing and have the correct isolation taps and such, I'd avoid injecting anything into the cable lines. If your signal leaks back up into the cable system it would cause interference problems and get the cable company very upset with you!

Normally, one would use multiple computers running SageTV-Client (as Opus4 mentioned). That gives you full control from each. Then it's just a matter of deciding what you want to use for the video output to the TV from each computer.

Otherwise, there is the possability of using MVP's for each TV. However support for that is still pretty much experimental by some other people in the forum (unless Frey plans to add it in a future version of SageTV).

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by casperse

Hi All

As everybody knows The PVR-350 only recognizes overlay images from media playback, in conjunction with its hardware MPEG-2 decoder, for use with its TV-OUT.

Actually overlay has nothing to do with it. The 350 decodes the MPEG2 stream directly on the card and ouputs it via it's TV out.

I want to have a normal Desktop XP and at the same time have SAGE TV running on a dedicated TV-OUT!

You can do exactly that with a normal video card and the 350. The 350 would be dedicated to Sage, you'd have access to the full Sage UI and video (no windows), and everything else would work like normal on the video card.

However I would recommend against going that route, for a number of reasons. First being the whole RF modulater/IR repeater setup would be a rather complicated cludgy thing. Then there are the stability issues with the 350 TV-out+OSD.

A better solution IMO, would be (like Andy said) to put a client at each TV and network them to the server. The client could either be a small PC running SageClient - which would get you the full Sage UI, or something like the Hauppauge MediaMVP - which would get you the Recordings but no control over Sage.

[mogrinz]

I'll take a stab here, because this sounds exactly like what I am doing now.

Here's my setup:
I have a main server running SageTV. The video card is an ATI All-in-wonder 9600. The VGA out from that card is hooked up to a CRT projector for watching movies.

The *tv-out* from that card is fed into a Channel Plus remodulator. This allows me to send the tv out version of my desktop (which, recall, is just full-screen Sage) over a custom TV channel (I use 123, because Sage is as easy as 1-2-3 ;-) So, from any TV in the house, you can change to channel 123, and you'll see Sage (or the desktop if sage is asleep).

What about changing channels from any TV? First, my Sage server is ready to accept IR commands via IRMan (http://www.evation.com/irman/index.html)
But how to get the signal from the upstairs TVs down to the basement? Over the same coax cable used to transmit the new TV channel! You can place sensors near your TVs that will receive the IR commands, encode them on the coax, and the have them decoded in another location and "emitted" just as if you were in that room. And this doesn't just have to be only for Sage. I also have an IR keyboard and IR game controller that I use throughout the house to control the PC. I can turn to channel 123 and start watching a movie upstairs, press Pause, run down to the kitchen, turn that TV to 123, and keep watching. Or, I can play a game of Asteroids running on the basement server while sitting upstairs in bed.

One of the best parts about this whole setup is that it doesn't require you to run a single new cable. The new TV channel is sent over your existing home cable, as are the IR commands.

I have a few other interesting things going on also, like USB-UIRTs for controlling cable/satellite boxes, and VCRadio + a RadioMan which records daily radio programs as MP3s and dumps them into a Sage music dir where they're "swept" up for listening to later, but these mods don't pertain to this topic.

A few other points though:
1. I have the All-in-Wonder's out sent to channel 1-2-3, and the PVR-350 out sent to 121. Why? I get the best picture (from the 350) on 121, but it's not "full-control" of the PC, which I want sometimes. So I use two channels (well, 119 is the night-vision baby-cam, but I digress ))

2. What about SageTV Client? or the MediaMVP?
In my opinion, there is great potential here. I will eventually replace all TV's in the house w/ a Sage Client. But I'm waiting for a few key things..

First, I am waiting for the nano-itx motherboards to be released. These are an even smaller version of the micro-itx motherboards (http://www.mini-itx.com/news/computex2003-1/). This will allow me to build a full-function PC about this size of the MVP (btw, I will mostly run off my network, but boot from a RAM-based IDE device: http://www.memorydepot.biz/diskonmodule/) This will ensure a totally silent PC.

For my monitor, I will then be able to use a plain ol' LCD PC display. HDTV LCD screens are so expensive compared to PC monitors, and they often don't match the resolution or quality. This small footprint and full PC functionality will be awesome.

Second, I am hoping for some type of HDTV support to happen soon. This isn't a show-stopper for me yet, but I want to make sure the hardware I assemble will be up to any requirements Sage might need.

I haven't yet decided if I will run ethernet to each of these new "mini-media centers", or just go 802.11g. Time and testing will tell.

Whew - I've rambled on enough. Hope someone can get some useful information out of all that.

Here are some useful links:
for channel remodulation and video distribution:
http://www.smarthome.com/7701f.html
http://www.smarthome.com/howto16.html

for IR distribution:
Some of the channel remodulators have this feature built-in, but I went the stand-alone route:
http://www.hometech.com/infrared/rcvrs.html#XA-17294
(you'll need one of the 69.95 kits for the first TV, and one of the $53.95 kits for each TV thereafter)

More info about mini and nano-itx motherboards:
http://www.mini-itx.com

[casperse]

Thanks Guys!

I really needed all this information!

A quick questing are you all experiencing problems with the 350? and are most of you using the 250 card?

*****************************************
MLS
It sounds like you want to do something different than I origianally understood. I thought you wanted to do what I'm doing... running SageTV out to the TV at the same time as still using the computer monitor for other things from the same video card.
*****************************************

I do need this but the use of the Monitor would be server Administration, but it dosent have to be on the same card

Regarding the control issue I think a RF remote would cover my 150m2 apartment since I have located the server in a small room the midle of the apartment. (At least I hope so - havent bought one yet)

Unfortunately I dont have a PC for every TV so running SageTV-Client (as Opus4 mentioned) is not possible for me. But I like the idea!

*******************************************
Stanger89:
You can do exactly that with a normal video card and the 350. The 350 would be dedicated to Sage, you'd have access to the full Sage UI and video (no windows), and everything else would work like normal on the video card.
********************************************

Does this mean that I could use the SageTV Full UI on the output from the 350´s TV-out and still be able to keep my XP desktop? That sounds great! didnt think that was possible?

But since the 350 is unstable is there a alternativ?

I didnt know that there was a 350 problem...
So you would recommend a 250 Card instead of the 350?
But I guess the 350 is the only way if I need the TV-Output

*********************************************
Mogrinz!

That is a really impressive setup you have!
But I live in Denmark so I have to find a PAL signal Modulator solution. And thats not easy.
I have finally found a Stereo Modulator with a REALLY god signal but it only supports 1 signal and I want a second signal to be transmitted to the other TV´s....So the search continiues

I have looked around on the web, and it looks like the majority of people are split in tre different setups

1) SageTV & Maybee Clients
2) Beyond TV & Maybee Clients
and a few that use Meedio + SageTV setup (Combo)

But I guess that Sage its the only one who can use the TV-out on the 350 card!!
But how can you define the remote to only be controlled in the TV-out UI and not on the actual XP desktop?

I guess that the 350 (And its problems) is the way to go.

Sorry if i ask stupid questings, but I dont have alot of money and I would like to get it right the first time
Again everybody Thanks for all of your feedback!!!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by casperse

A quick questing are you all experiencing problems with the 350? and are most of you using the 250 card?

I'm using a 250 and a Radeon 9500 via component (soon to be Geforce 6800) to my HDTV, so I have no direct experience with the 350. I just know a number of members have had/do have trouble with it and like to make sure new users are aware there are/may be issues with it.

Does this mean that I could use the SageTV Full UI on the output from the 350´s TV-out and still be able to keep my XP desktop? That sounds great! didnt think that was possible?

Basically what happens is Sage runs windowed on your monitor and the 350 displays the Sage UI/OSD and video. You can actually sleep Sage though (sits in the system tray) and still control it on the TV out. As for remote, you need one that can control apps without focus, both the 350's bundled remote can do that or you can do it via girder.

But since the 350 is unstable is there a alternativ?

Yes and no, no in that there are no other special purpose cards with Sage supported OSDs. However you could do (as was mentioned above) get a normal video card with TV out and run Sage on the secondary monitor (which would be the TV out).

I didnt know that there was a 350 problem...

Seems the OSD isn't 100% stable.

So you would recommend a 250 Card instead of the 350?

Generally yes.

But I guess the 350 is the only way if I need the TV-Output

Don't forget you can use a standard video card.

But how can you define the remote to only be controlled in the TV-out UI and not on the actual XP desktop?

Basically you tell the remote app to target a specific application instead of just sending them to the app with "focus"

Actually if I were you, I'd look at the MediaMVP. Get one for each TV, run network cable to them and then each TV can view your recordings. There's no word on an official SageClient port for the MVP, but I know there are forum members trying to get something working so you can actually interact with Sage through the MVP.

[casperse]

Thanks for your comments!
I will look into this solution.

You said that you where getting a Geforce 6800
I am also looking on what Graphic card to buy?

I have heard that the only thing the 6800s don't do is WM9 accelleration? is that right?

I am not going to play games on this machine but any hardware acceleration is a plus since the machine is only a AMD +1800

Any recommendation is much appriciated!

Just ordered my PVR350 card! cant wait to get it.

[stanger89]

Yeah, I got my 6800 and my breakout cable. Had a little trouble getting going, the breakout cable H/V sync connectors are reversed , and had some trouble getting my resolutions setup, nVidia's custom res app isn't quite powerfull enough and I had an old version of PS . But now that that's sorted out I'm getting a great picture. nVDVD 4 and VMR9 at 1776x1000i is great.

From what I've seen, yes the only problem with the 6800s is the lack of WM9 accelleration (I actually think my card is trying to do it, I'll have to post a screenshot if I can get one it's pretty bad). Right now I'd wait for either an AGP version of the 6600 or the 6700 (new rev of the 6800). And truthfully WM9 accelleration won't make a difference for you with SD WM9, and WMV-HD won't do you any good if you've got an SDTV so I wouldn't worry about WM9 Accelleration too much.