Any Chance for Xcard OSD Support?

[Crowdx42]

Originally Posted by jptaz

Crowdx42,

Two big short comings of TVedia for me are:

No EPG Guide...XML TV.
No Client capability to allow client server like SageTV.

If I didn't need Clients I might feel differently and give XML TV a shot, but I have heard the data is even worse than Zap2it.

I may install an old copy JovePlayer 2.0 if SageTVClient does not support OSD on Xcard when I am finished with my master bed room this winter. I am pretty sure I still have an old version of JovePlayer 2.0 and my license key and just point the directory to my server.

John

Yes I TOTALLY agree with you on both of these points, BUT I will say it's playback of files recorded elsewhere, Real Media, ASF and full OSD on the XCard is a real draw for me,, even if I had to keep Sage along with running TVedia.

Will play with it a little more today and see how far I get

Also I still have no idea how their UI works BUT it is no different in looks to anything on Sage, it does one thing though that Sage does not and that is a menu fade when you go out of the menu it fades rather than just off.

Patrick

[SHS]

The Xcard support 256 and belive it also support 4-bit alpha blending which maybe why it look so dran good.
Far I know of Sigma Designs will not be make any new PC base card.
As for special 32bit OSD there full BS becuase the MAX color on Xcard is on display only 24bit color if you doing realtime render.
TV show don't support the alpha blending which I do belive was only for Gaming Enhanced thing.

[something fishy]

I think that jptaz hit the nail on the head. The XCard is simply a better product than the PVR350.

When I first built a PVR six months ago I chose a PVR350 because I wanted a good quality TV out. I installed the trial version of Sage (it was just about the time that Sage 2.0 became available). The software was great but the system was nowhere near reliable enough for me to trust - a finding that was repeated among a large number of PVR350 users on the Sage forums. And what's the point of an automated recording device that you can't trust?

Then the PVR350 died. A little googling had turned up Joveplayer (I knew of the Xcard from the HTPC boards on avsforum). At that time Joveplayer3 was in Beta4. It wasn’t perfect and it wasn't perfectly stable. But even at that stage the XCard/JP3.0b4 combo was much more reliable than the Sage/PVR350 combo.

I’ve used it ever since. A few betas later and a change of name and I now *completely* trust it to work in the same way that I trust a VCR or a DVD player to work. It runs my music system (CDs ripped to APE feeding spdif to Meridian active speakers) and has also replaced a DVD player. I can't remember the last time that it crashed or locked up. The only time the PC is rebooted is when something has been upgraded. That for me is more important than the number of colours on the OSD (though the TVedia OSD is actually very slick).

I can understand anyone in the US using Sage’s integrated EPG being very reluctant to try anything else. (I live in Singapore where the only option is to scrape web pages and generate a guide in XMLTV). Sage seems a great product. Objectively it may be a better PVR than TVedia. But my experience with the PVR350 was almost entirely bad (even before it died) and that more than negates any usability advantages that Sage might have offered.

Bottom line, you will never sell Sage to me while the only way of getting a high quality TV out is through the PVR350; nor would I recommend it to anyone wanting a STB-like experience. I don't care how good the software is the package isn't reliable enough for me to trust it.

OK rant over, back to the TVedia forums for me. Good luck to all you Xcard users, I hope that eventually Frey give you what you want.

Cheers
Eric

[x[corwyn]]

Wow.

There are more xCard users than I thought already, and probably a lot more that would use an xCard especially given for a non-HDTV its simply the best. I really hope that Frey does indeed rethink not supporting OSD via the xcard. Personally for me it would make PVR with Sage a much less of a hard sell to less technical users.

If its an issue of not having support from Sigma I would like to hear that if that is indeed the case. Somehow seeing Tvedia/Jove succeeding I just don't see that being the issue.

Remember for that new Plextor to be a good sell you need a good output device to go with it. The xCard is just such a device. That would be an awesome bundle, SageTV with a plextor and a xCard. Full divx support! How much better could that get?

[Crowdx42]

Well after a days worth of playing with TVedia I can only say not once had I a crash or problem due to the XCard (some remote problems, not learning correct which may actually be my remote control issue).
I now have a solution with the XCard where I automatically get AC3 playback on both XVid and DVDs (also DTS, I presume because it just sends the audio stream in the same way a dvd player does) without any swapping of output on the mixer etc. Very happy at present with TVedia. Have not used the TV section much due to using Sage BUT I did do the epg xmltv deal and downloaded the guide and that seemed to work fine EXCEPT it was pretty cpu intensive (Barton 3200, 90% cpu and took about 5 mins to compile).
As it stands right now without any tv support at all, TVedia makes an excellent standalone client now if it's tv support gets improved then I could easily see myself moving completely to TVedia.

On the remote side of things the menu buttons seem to do different things depending on the screen you are in and so again makes it VERY usable with very few buttons to program on the remote. It autoplays dvds and the dvd menus zip through (unlike my standalone dvd player).

Sage really has a big contender here, and what is the trump card in TVedia's setup? The XCard, it just makes it "feel" so much more like a standalone player which supports MANY formats (as I said before, Real Media, asf etc ).

IF Sage got their finger out on the XCard support I really feel they would be shipping a lot more units, MUCH easier to sell something which takes 5 mins to setup and ready to play (Sage has a bit more of a learning curve with codecs etc to get a good picture) and the spouses of all of us will be a lot happier.

BTW TVedia "seems" to have FULL control of the XCard, volume overscan etc.

C'mon Sage I REALLY love your product but if TVedia keeps improving the way it has (I tried Joveplayer originally when I was looking for a PVR app and it was crap and that was only about 7 - 8 months ago), I will be switching to their pvr solution.

Patrick

[x[corwyn]]

BUMP !!!!!

Come on Sage...I know you read this. Great support for encoders.... but the decoders?

[Crowdx42]

Just as an update, the Xcard is definately seems outputting more that 256 colors on it's OSD, I download GBPVR and it also does OSD out BUT it was only 256 colors and really looked crappy compared to TVedia OSD on the XCard.
Really the only fault at present that I see in TVedia is it's poor TV feature set which I know affects everyone here BUT for file playback it is a much nicer player to use.
Patrick

[SHS]

x[corwyn] BUMP it not going get you any where you do have few option you know
Get TVedia and forget SageTV or Get NetStream 2000/4000 or if real bave there alway the 2000TV which get you Windows Desktop with the S-Video/Composite/Component output becuase as I under it has scan converter which something I didn't know about in tell a few days ago becase I never really look at it or just live with it sorry what can I say .

[x[corwyn]]

There are quite a few people that want the xCard to work with OSD. I think pointing that out to Sage and perhaps having them work on things that their customers want is not a bad thing. I don't believe at any point I have been disrespectful. As the saying goes "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". The xcard is an excellent product that is a slam dunk for a PVR product, My problem is that I can't imagine these companies putting out a PVR product and NOT wanting to utilize the best that they can. Also maddening is their support for any decoder that comes out, and while thats great what a lot of us are concerned is the "output" of what we view which should be at least as important as the input. They both weigh heavily upon the full experience. I don't believe that making the experience easier is something that is looked at enough on here. I believe that the xcard takes that easy user experience to the next level. I have a number of people that are interested in having that experience and are willing to spend for it, but do not want a computer screen next to their TV, nor do they want to deal with a desktop as their main interface. Tvedia isn't their yet in the TV part. If tvedia had the better OVR software I would tell Sage to shine it, and then take the people that are interested in a HTPC/PVR to that product. I like Sage and again, with the Plextor utilizing divx format, the xcard is the only way to go for TV out that I can see that will deliver a good user experience. Apparently I am not alone in that opinion.

Netstream 4000 runs about $235.

xcard which I already own is $84

Not to mention when I got Sage I was told the xcard worked with Sage. I didn't think to ask "Half worked".

Not to mention supposedly it would only take a "little work" to get that going. Thats very frustrating and irritating to hear since we aren't worth a little bit of work. Lame. I bought into Sage already. Lets also not skip over the fact I got a roslyn card and now find out if I want a 2nd tuner I will probably have to buy 2. I'm willing to gloss that over, but hey...a spade is a spade. Sage is great software. Get the hardware portion right and it would be a pretty damn easy sell. Is there anyone here that would disagree with me on that? I say fix the hardware before going into new software and introducing all kinds of other fun. Thats as a paying customer who is willing to put more money in. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, and I have already proven that and not overly complained and willing to give time where its due...but hey. If go elsewhere is your answer I CAN do that and point others in that direction as well.

[SHS]

I know x[corwyn] I under stand to but what call a few customers is only hand full like less then 20 out what 5000 other SageTV user belive or not I agree jeff should go for it becuase I think a lot of user would jump on Xcard in heart beat and it help push sale for Xcard and Plextor device in long run not counting SageTV to boot.

[Opus4]

One thing I am curious about: The 350 seemed to become much more unstable when the UI was added to it. For any of the applications that make use of a UI on the Xcard, do they suffer from any sort of instability? Currently, my Xcard setup is completely stable & others say the same thing, but I keep wondering if there is any chance of it losing that stability with a UI in use.

- Andy

[mlbdude]

Another question. I am thinking of getting an HDTV (this weekend wahoo!). Is an XCard usefull for me in this situation? I know it has component out, but why would it be better than doing a component or DVI connection from my video card to the TV?

Thanks!

[jptaz]

Andy,

I used the XCard with Joveplayer with extensive use of the OSD for months. I don't know of any stability issues related to Xcard. Joveplayer would not be around if the Xcard was as unstable as the PVR 350 since until this most recent release it was the only way to see the UI.

Mlbdude,

I use DVI to my HDTV and I think the quality is very good, but the my software decoders can not touch the XCard outputquality at 720P or 1080i. This is why it baffles me why Frey would settle for such a limited product like the PVR 350 when you can get superior output quality from one product all on TVs.

John

[mlbdude]

I will have to check it out. However, I am a bit skeptical that it will be any better with an HDTV since it wants to natively display what my video card sends out. It could possibly be easier though since I would not have to mess with powerstrip. The decoders in the XCard or the 350 are not anything special and I would find it hard to believe they can compete with the newer decoders that are available now. The benefit is the dedicated proper output hardware and this should only be really beneficial for SD TV users.

I think this is possible, but how easy is it to integrate ffdshow with the XCard?

Also, reason Frey is probably not doing an OSD for Xcard is as SHS says - it is all in the numbers.

[jptaz]

Mlbdude,

If you have a really fast PC and can mess with ffdshow and dscaler, then yes you can probably can beat the Xcard. ffdshow and any other modification will not work with Xcard. I tend think this is not needed as the motion and scaling problems that I would need to use ffdshow and dscaler for are not an issue.

Also I think you are misunderstanding how the Xcard works. It will output 1080i/720P/480P as wells as other HD resolutions reguardless of the Computer display it has nothing to do with the Computer rsolution. It scales to what ever ouput it has and I do not even have my video card hooked up to it. I used to have my comuter next to my sofa so that I could surf the web or chat while I watched TV. When I used Joveplayer while playing back and fastforwarding/rewinding, using the UI on the tv it did not ever use more than 10% CPU on the PC and never was interrupted. You would need two pcs to achieve what I did with one when I was using the Xcard and Joveplayer and one of the PCs you need would have to be really fast to get as good a quality as the XCard on the TV. My 733Mhz P3 can not beat the quality of the XCard since I can not use ffdshow or dscaler and I have not intention of wasting hundreds of dollars if not more to make a dedicated system that my $85 simple to set up Xcard can meet in quality on an old PC.

I just question selling the economics of this kind of solution to new people who are aksing if they should get replaytv/tivo or Sagetv. When it comes down to it if you have to build an expensive PC just to get comparable qulality then it is a no win situation for SageTV or any PC based solution. ReplayTVs network capabilities make it hard to tell people they should buy a new pc to get comparable quality and that the PC would be useless while watching TV. The great benefit of SageTV is that it uses hardware based encoders. Way better than software based solutions.

If I can spend $360 to make an old PC both a usable PC for surfing the web anything else PC can do while watching and recording TV it that is superior in quality and caacity to s tivo 140 hour even after rebate and the savings of not having a subscription fee then you have a real competitive advantage that is easy to use and does not require Tweaking like with ffdshow/ dscaler etc. JovePlayer 2.0 was the last version I used. I was up and running with excellen quality display in minutes because all the settings for display were like those on a TV set for setting brighness and contrast. I could evn just pop in DVE and calibrate it.

SageTV Bundle with one tuner $175
Xcard $85
200 GB Drive $100

John

[jptaz]

Also in terms of the numbers I do not think that is the reason they went with the PVR 350. They clearly have a partnership with Hauppauge and they felt it was a better business solution to use the combo product as it uses one slot instead of two.

If the Hauppauge solutions worked and were released with full SageTV we might not have this debate...but here we are one year later...lousy compatibility for PVR350...no OSD on Xcard...no MediaMVP support. Even with all of that worked, the Xcard would be better since it can support MP4 and DVD playback along with True HDTV support.

Also if numbers was an issue then TVedia would not be doing as well as it is since until this releas you were required to have an XCard.

John

[Crowdx42]

If Sage had picked the XCard for the hardware decoder card when they originally were creating a hardware OSD out on the 350 then they really should have looked at the XCard.
I have been runnning the 350 since Sage 2 was released and it has had many OSD glitches, also from the TVedia forums, the 350 does have issues with TVedia also, so this is a 350 problem and so I really think if Sage had concentrated on the XCard and an OSD then, it would have cost them a lot less on tech support and complaints.

Bottom line is they made a mistake and continue with their mistake,,, XCard is a more stable product.
Patrick

[insomniac]

nailed it...

Originally Posted by x[corwyn]

There are quite a few people that want the xCard to work with OSD. I think pointing that out to Sage and perhaps having them work on things that their customers want is not a bad thing. I don't believe at any point I have been disrespectful. As the saying goes "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". The xcard is an excellent product that is a slam dunk for a PVR product, My problem is that I can't imagine these companies putting out a PVR product and NOT wanting to utilize the best that they can. Also maddening is their support for any decoder that comes out, and while thats great what a lot of us are concerned is the "output" of what we view which should be at least as important as the input. They both weigh heavily upon the full experience. I don't believe that making the experience easier is something that is looked at enough on here. I believe that the xcard takes that easy user experience to the next level. I have a number of people that are interested in having that experience and are willing to spend for it, but do not want a computer screen next to their TV, nor do they want to deal with a desktop as their main interface. Tvedia isn't their yet in the TV part. If tvedia had the better OVR software I would tell Sage to shine it, and then take the people that are interested in a HTPC/PVR to that product. I like Sage and again, with the Plextor utilizing divx format, the xcard is the only way to go for TV out that I can see that will deliver a good user experience. Apparently I am not alone in that opinion.

Netstream 4000 runs about $235.

xcard which I already own is $84

Not to mention when I got Sage I was told the xcard worked with Sage. I didn't think to ask "Half worked".

Not to mention supposedly it would only take a "little work" to get that going. Thats very frustrating and irritating to hear since we aren't worth a little bit of work. Lame. I bought into Sage already. Lets also not skip over the fact I got a roslyn card and now find out if I want a 2nd tuner I will probably have to buy 2. I'm willing to gloss that over, but hey...a spade is a spade. Sage is great software. Get the hardware portion right and it would be a pretty damn easy sell. Is there anyone here that would disagree with me on that? I say fix the hardware before going into new software and introducing all kinds of other fun. Thats as a paying customer who is willing to put more money in. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, and I have already proven that and not overly complained and willing to give time where its due...but hey. If go elsewhere is your answer I CAN do that and point others in that direction as well.

[mlbdude]

Well I can tell you that Frey is as unhappy with the 350 experience as everyone else. They learned a lesson in that one that unfortunately boils over into the XCard area. Basically they are very hesitant to do any kind of hardware integration when they have no control over the interfaces for that card. At this point they are in the position of updating and making sure the 350 OSD works every time a new driver comes out for it.

Why doesn't Sigma take the initiate and write the necessary drivers for it to work with Sage? It would seem that it would be more beneficial to them than it would be to Frey.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by jptaz

Also I think you are misunderstanding how the Xcard works. It will output 1080i/720P/480P as wells as other HD resolutions reguardless of the Computer display it has nothing to do with the Computer rsolution.

I think what mlbdude was saying is that PCs HD output is not deficient like it is with S-Video, so the Xcard should not offer a benefit for HDTV users.

It might be possible for the Xcard to equal the output of SW decoders and a good video card, but it should not be able to beat them, especialy with DVI. This is the first time I've heard anything positive about the Xcard's analog output (other than the S-Video).

It sounds like you've got something wrong in your setup if the Xcard beats SW/decoders. On my HTPC Sonic Cineplayer in DXVA (no ffdshow even) Radeon 9500, at 1080i to my 46" Mits HDTV beats away my Pioneer Elite DV-C36, and the difference is far bigger on my 36" RCA MM36110. I have serious doubts the analog output quality of a ~$100 decoder card can match that of a ~$200 (new) Radeon 9500, Geforce 6800, or ~$750 Pioneer Elite.

And that setup is far from the best of the breed, nVDVD 4 on a Geforce 6800 is supposed to be killer, when combined with huge ffdshow resise, it is supposed to beat even extremely highend scalers.

At one point I thought it would be cool to use the Xcard PDI into Dscaler or a Holo3DGraph, but it appears that even that combo has been lowered since the latest round of SW decoders have come out.

Now, one question I'll pose for you:
In what way(s) do you find the Xcard better than SW decoders?