Why choose sage/snap over tivo/replay?

[salsbst]

Thanks, zz5. It sounds like they are making progress.

One thing that occurred to me when you said...

I believe that a lot of the new functionality wasn't there with the old units

... is that it is alot cheaper (at least so far it has been) to get a new version of SageTV than it is to purchase a new ReplayTV box (even more so if you've paid for the box's lifetime subscription to the guide data).

[mightyt]

I only skimmed through the responses ... and I don't know Tivo / Replay ... and not sure if this was brought up ... but Sage does have Intelligent Recording ... and Favorites ... Does Tivo or Replay? If so, do they do it as well?

As for me ... I love my SageTV ... just one mans opinion ...

[jptaz]

mightyt

Yes Tivo and Replay have intelligent recording and season pass. They do it as well as SageTV from what I have heard from friends.

zz5,

ReplayTV is almost there, but not yet. It does not schedule intelligently over multiple units. You need to manually handle conflicts and tell it to record on one of the other ReplayTV Units. At this point they can get there, but they are not there yet. They need to improve the software a bit more.


I Love my SageTV, but the reality is that for a non computer techies they can achieve many of the key advantages that I wanted (Multiple Tuners scheduled from one location, network streaming over the LAN. No telephone line required.)

If I was not a computer geek who wants multiple computers in my house and I was doing all over again I would go multiple ReplayTV Units.

John

[jominor]

Originally Posted by Scott5

Thanks members -
About my quality statement:
- Snapstream's web site lists a half dozen links to PC PVR reviews I read today - most of them go out of their way to indicate that PC based PVR's offer lower quality than the so called dedicated set-top boxes.

I have no experence either way, just reporting what I've read... I probably shouldn't believe everything I read! The DVR reviews are always littered with little errors that I could pick after my first day of reading up on this stuff.

To be fair to Snapstream, most of the time, these guys review without using a hardware encoder. I get better quality than my standard TV. I've had non-PC, objective people say the PQ is excellent.

I would say that the PC will cost more, but flexibility and expandability always cost more. For example, I have two(a 200 and 250 g) drives that I use for TV. This records, just about everything I need with plenty of space for holding shows to watch at leisure. And this is at 3 gigs per hour.

I use 2x200g for movies. I also listen to MP3s and Yahoo lauchcast. I'm adding an FM tuner and will start recording radio for use on my ay to work.

I only by drives on sale, and have certainly spent more than a TIVO, but I've wrung everybit of use out of the thing.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by zz5

salsbst,

No you're not misunderstanding me. You're probably where I was until 6 months ago when I, just for fun, began researching TIVO/ReplayTV again. I say just for fun because at that point I had already invested so much in Sage that I wasn't planning to switch. Did you know that ReplayTV has all the interoperably that you get with Sage? You can watch shows from any unit on any other unit, and you can even schedule everything from one unit. You can even schedule from your PC. It actually does pretty much everything Sage can do.

Can Replay record radio? Run Launchcast? Play divx movies? Run a database? Allow you to add a drive by just plugging one in? Also, why buy an entire unit as opposed to just plugging in an external tuner.

I don't agree. Soon as we get into the realm of multlple communicating devices, I'll definitely recommend the PC and Sage.

[zz5]

jpatz,

I agree with what your saying about using Sage and non-techies. There's no way anyone would set this up if they weren't really into computers. There's just too much maintenance on a computer. It's not really that time-consuming, but you have to know what to do when problems arise.

I knew there were some limitations with rolling favorites over to a second unit, but I guess that really doesn't bother me that much. Favorites are generally set up only once in a while. Instead of setting up 4 favorites with priorities 1-4, you'd just be setting each of 4 units for each of those favorites. It's not quite the same, but favorites never do quite the job at finding what you want to record as you can do. I think that favorites are nice to have, but it's kind of a pain to make sure that they really record everything that you really want. The true value for me with favorites is identifying shows of interest. Then I can make manual records of the ones it doesn't do right.

[zz5]

jominor,

Radio? Launchcast? Divx? Sage doesn't do that, and what does any of that have to do with PVR? ReplayTV also can't run Microsoft Word, play video games, or do email, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't use it as a PVR. You can connect a server to a ReplayTV, you know, just like with Sage. Then you have all the hard drive space you want. Why buy an entire unit? Because that extra unit is cheaper than your Sage computer with that extra tuner. Your Sage computer with all that stuff going is going to be way less reliable than a ReplayTV. Why not just use your computer for all that stuff you mention, and leave PVR to a dedicated PVR? Since the computer wouldn't have to be on all the time, you could turn it off and save lots of electricity.

[mbrown3]

The one thing that Replay doesn't do (anymore) is commercial advance...unless someone's created a hack for that too?

[salsbst]

but favorites never do quite the job at finding what you want to record as you can do. I think that favorites are nice to have, but it's kind of a pain to make sure that they really record everything that you really want. The true value for me with favorites is identifying shows of interest. Then I can make manual records of the ones it doesn't do right.

I have a completely different experience with favorites. They are 100% reliable in my experience. It sounds like you might be referring about intelligent recording?

Radio? Launchcast? Divx? Sage doesn't do that, and what does any of that have to do with PVR?

Remember that we're discussing why choose sage over a Replay. When the cost issue comes up, it is perfectly valid to claim that all of these other things that one can do with a computer reduce the amount of its cost that one would allocate to the PVR features.

Your Sage computer with all that stuff going is going to be way less reliable than a ReplayTV.

My Sage system is WAY more reliable than the ReplayTV that I had in my home for 2 months.

[mightyt]

Sounds to me like the same ol'story ...

Some will spend $4k on a receiver that will do everything but make toast. However, they will use every feature / function available to them. Of course this makes the device more flexible and there is a learning curve, but if that is what is desired then it's worth every penny and effort.

On the other hand, there are other that need not more that a boom box, just want to hear music, do want to deal with any complexity and are perfectly happy to spend $100 to do that for "um" plug and pay.

Reading through this thread, bottom line appears to be they both have overlaps, pros and cons depending on "your" point of view.

So, IMHO I believe we are talking about two fruits that where one may be an apple and the other an orange. It depends on what you feel like sinking your teeth in to.

I think that's a nickels worth ...

T.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by zz5

jominor,

Radio? Launchcast? Divx? Sage doesn't do that, and what does any of that have to do with PVR? ReplayTV also can't run Microsoft Word, play video games, or do email, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't use it as a PVR. You can connect a server to a ReplayTV, you know, just like with Sage. Then you have all the hard drive space you want. Why buy an entire unit? Because that extra unit is cheaper than your Sage computer with that extra tuner. Your Sage computer with all that stuff going is going to be way less reliable than a ReplayTV. Why not just use your computer for all that stuff you mention, and leave PVR to a dedicated PVR? Since the computer wouldn't have to be on all the time, you could turn it off and save lots of electricity.

It has everything to do with an HTPC and that, to me, is the advantage over a ReplayTV. Also, since you are not in my house, I don't think you are in any position to question the reliabilty of my setup. It runs 24/7 per day. Simple as that.

Since I have the computer, buying the ReplayTV doesn't save me anything and I have a single box that handles all of the above as opposed to multiple ReplayTV.

My point, ultimately, is the address your statement to the other guy that he is where you where 6 months ago. I still don't regret the decision to put together Sage and have recommended the solution to several people.

I would not endanger my credibility if the solution wasn't reasonably simple to set up and troublefree. Instead of buying more boxes, which take up power, I just have one.

[zz5]

jominor,

When I say reliable, I mean reliable like a vcr. A vcr never needs to be rebooted. I suppose you never install drivers? I suppose you never run any programs that use any CPU? If you are using your computer like you say you are, you will not have 100% uptime like you claim. You're just defending your toy.

It doesn't matter what you want to do with your computer. We're talking generalities here. Most people don't want to do that stuff in their living room while watching TV. Even if they do, you could buy a TIVO and build a separate computer for all that for only a $100 or $200 more than the cost of the single computer setup (because you wouldn't need a PVR card or Sage software and extra drive space), and then be able to do everything else you can do with a regular computer, such as play games, burn DVD's, and turn it off when you want. In fact, server-client is the way most serious users setup Sage anyway.

[reboot_this]

Let's see, I don't want to bash anyone so here is my thoughts on this subject....

First, my dad has a Tivo (with the $300 lifetime subscription) and per the folks at Tivo, he can add another lifetime subscription for, well, another $300... yes he has talked to alot of people trying to figure out why he was told that he could get a discount on a second subscription when he bought the first one, with no luck (doesn't matter now... he's in love with SageTV now and will never look back)

I've co-built 4 computers with my dad, 2 new main office computers and 2 SageTV computers, we both have one of each. It's not really that hard to build one, just follow the instructions, and after building it make sure you get all the latest drivers for everything! This is a list of what in both the SageTV computers with approximate costs, exactly identical:

(1) Ahanix Divine 5 series case-- 200 each (has a power supply and the vfd display)
(1) Asus A7N8X-e Deluxe motherboard-- 85 each
(1) AMD 2800+ 32bit processor-- 225 each
(1) 1 Gig Corsair PC2700 RAM (2x512Mb)-- 150 each
(1) Sony DVD drive (used)-- you can get these for 50 bucks
(2) Western Digital 250 Gb hard drives-- 100 each
(4) Hauppauge 250 MCE tuners-- 100 each (adding a fifth this weekend on both pcs)
(1) SageTV/SageClient-- 80/30 (save a few bucks buying both, if they are still running that special)
(1) VersapointRF wireless keyboard w/ built in mouse-- 100
(1)cpu cooling fan-- 30 each
(0) codecs-- 0 each (haven't needed any, I use the nvidia stuff that came with the board)

So, let's see, that comes out to around $1500...

I have 4 tuners, 500 gigs, free guide listings, and I tell one machine what I want to record and it does everything for me.

IF I had gone the Tivo route, I would need at least 4 120 gig tivos to get close to what I have (minus the dvd player, "single machine" controlling all recordings, upgradeablity, free guide listings, configurable user interface, and on and on and on I could go)

(4) 120 Gb Tivos-- 250 each (last time I saw)
(4) "no discount" (cause you can't get a discount)-- 300 each

Hmmm, let's see, that would be $2200

...which would you pay? I know you don't want multiple tuners, but build the basic computer and get sage... the addiction WILL come! Heck it did for me, adding that 5th tuner, UIRT (to control my cable box for upper channels), and a Harmony remote (haven't fully decided yet).... add those to my 1500 buck investment and I will have $1795 into my machine (and I can still add 4 more 250Gb hard drives before I hit $1995 ..... 5 bucks less than those tivos [hehe] and I have twice as much diskspace than them)

P.S. I'll only have 1 remote, not juggling 4!

TIP: Once you have the ability to record stuff, the ADDICTION will come and you'll want more (with Sage's capability, you'll have room to grow... or go the other route and go buy another tivo) Plus, there are so many more things you can do with Sage and the pc it's on.

oh and please don't ask where I got all of my parts, I shopped around and bought only during the sales. Most of everything was bought locally, not via the web.

[reboot_this]

Crap! I forgot to mention, my dad currently records at 1Gb per hour quality setting with Sage. He is a major fanatic about having good video quality. He says at that setting, Sage is recording better quality than his Tivo. It just depends on which codecs you use, nvidia works for us but not for others. With Sage you have codec freedom, does Tivo? Nope!

[zz5]

reboot this,

I'm not sure who that was addressed to, but I actually have a 4-tuner system with a client. My setup, if I wasn't using the PVR-350 output which everyone has trouble with, would be 100% stable. I never had a complete lockup in the many months I was using the video card output. I agree it's not difficult to set up if you're a computer person. I'm a loyal Sage user. I've been using Sage for a year.

Your systems are sort of an extreme example of the situations for which Sage is at its most advantageous in terms of cost. The incremental cost for each additional tuner is much less for Sage. But even in this extreme example, by your figures, the costs are pretty close. If you add Windows XP ($100), the price jumps to $1650 per system. 4 80GB TIVO's or ReplayTV's will cost you a total of $2000 with no discount, but you could forgo the lifetime subscription of $300 for each of the three additional units and just pay $200 for each plus $6.95 a month if you wanted.

So even with 4 tuners, you're only saving $350. If you add a client - so that tuners are in the server and the client does all the playback, which is what people with many tuners usually seem to do - the decisive price advantage goes back to TIVO. Same thing is true if you reduce the system to only 3 tuners or less, the numbers decisively favor TIVO. If you do the TIVO method, you get 4 clients instead of just a single client. You also get Dolby Digital encoding for the audio, which is nice to have when making DVD's. And here's the biggie - you get smooth fastforwarding and rewinding, which is one of the most complained about things with Sage. You also save some money on electricity. The processor alone is 60 watts! I bet my 4-tuner system costs me at least $10 a month. The TIVO's have power management I believe which would allow them to shut off when not in use. And they don't need a hot processor.

Another advantage of the 4 TIVO's is the headless operation - if one goes down, the other 3 keep going. If anything goes wrong with the Sage machine, they all go down. And a computer will have a higher failure rate, what with all the fans. If a TIVO goes down, just remove it and send it to be repaired. No problem, you still have 3 left. If the computer goes down, unless you happen to have a suitable replacement motherboard or CPU or whatever is bad, you are looking at a few days down time. And that's assuming you have time to figure it out. Even if you have a replacement lined up and ready to go, can you be sure it can handle all the tuners? Will there be other setup problems that need to be worked out? What if the tuners are bad or some other part? There's just so much testing you have to do that you might not have time for or want to do when problems happen. And the price figures I list don't even take into account the time you spend setting up everything in the first place.

[mbrown3]

Originally Posted by reboot_this

First, my dad has a Tivo (with the $300 lifetime subscription) and per the folks at Tivo, he can add another lifetime subscription for, well, another $300... yes he has talked to alot of people trying to figure out why he was told that he could get a discount on a second subscription when he bought the first one, with no luck (doesn't matter now... he's in love with SageTV now and will never look back)

This discount is true, but only for monthly subscription, not for lifetime. http://www.tivo.com/1.6.2.asp#MSD. Makes sense, to me.

[m1abrams]

Ok I am still researching SageTV, but have been a Tivo user for awhile.

the SA Tivos do NOT do record DD data, they may output a DD encoded stream but can''t SageTV do the same trick if you have Nforce mb with Soundstorm? Even if it can't whats the big deal with that? Output stereo PCM to a decent reciever with Pro Logic II and you get the same thing.

The DirectTivo do record DD and pass-thru DD, and for cost and quality no one can touch DirectTivos. I am here because I can not get DirectTV at my new house, so had to give up DirectTivo

[Scott5]

I've been sitting back and digesting alot of this - But I wanted to come back online to thank everyone for their view points... The truth is - everyone's making great points.

I'm not entirely sure what I'm going to do yet. I have a newish laptop so I'd need to factor in the *whole* cost of another PC into the equation - this makes the finances much more painful than if I already had a good desktop with a video card and all I really needed was the sage software/card package ...to get started.

In *my* case ReplayTV - especially if I can get one used, with lifetime prepaid, on e-bay make alot of sense at the moment - providing they stay in buisness. I had wanted to run Itunes off the same box and start storing my jpegs, but I may have to give that up for the moment...

Thanks again everyone...

[reboot_this]

zz5,

my post was not aimed at anyone in particular, just giving my two cents with an example of costs. I already had a copy of xp pro, so I didn't figure that in (got my copy for 100 dollars) and the video card I forgot to mention is a PNY 5200FX AGP (paid 50 bucks), so for someone to build my "media" pc... would spend around 1800 buckaroos, but when my dad and I gauged it against the 2200 dollars for the tivos with lifetime subscriptions, we're still 400 shy. (looked even better with the 800 dollar diff when looking at cost for both media pcs ). It took us about 3 hours to button each one up to the point of "hey sage is recording something" I guess you do need to know a little about computers, but I'm not a pro by any means.

No hard feelings to anyone, remember there are pros and cons to ANYTHING.

m1abrams,

My m/b (see previous posting) puts out DD with the stock decoders to my onkyo via coaxial optical connection not toslink, it sounds the same as watching the DD comcast HD box (thru a toslink connection)... but the pc has a bit richer sounds.

[Ralphjb]

I just posted in another thread under the "General Discussion" group, and I echoed a lot of the posts I see here.

Short answer - if you don't mind putting in the time and overcoming some of the roadblocks (with help from your fellow posters here on this forum), go the SageTV-HTPC route. Flexibility, and upgrade-ability is worth it. That is what I did.

If not - get the set-top-box - plug it in and forget it.