Poor Video Quality Question

[mightyt]

Recently I did a somewhat substantial upgrade to my Sage “Server” which included;

1 - Adding another TV Card, however this one was the Hauppauge WinTV PVR USB2 as opposed to the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 250 PCI Card. While doing so I upgraded to the latest Hauppauge Drivers.

PVR 250 INF Files V1.8A, and

PVR 250 WinTV-PVR Update V1.8_22170

WinTV-PVR-USB2 Driver Update V.2.3.21351

So, could it be the new Hauppauge drivers?

I did follow the Hauppauge suggested driver upgrade process below;

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To install:
• Download three files to your computer:
- HCWCLEAR
- PVR_INF files: pvr250_18A_inf.zip
- WinTV-PVR Update: PVR250_18_22170.exe

• Run HCWCLEAR. This will remove the current WinTV-PVR drivers and WinTV applications.

• Unzip the pvr250_18A_inf.zip file to a temporary directory. Windows XP normally unzips this file to the PVR250_18A_INF directory.

• Then reboot your computer.

• When your system restarts, the "Add New Hardware wizard" will run.

In the Add Hardware Wizard first screen, select "Install from a list or specific location (Advanced)". Then click "Next".
In the next menu, select "Include this location in the search" and enter the location of your temporary directory where you unzipped the pvr250_inf file to install the base driver. Then click "Next". Click "Continue anyway". Click "Finish".

• After Windows has loaded the base driver, run the PVR250_18_22170.exe driver updater.
This will complete the driver installation for the PVR250/350.

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2 - I had also upgraded my video card from an 64mb nVidia to a 128mb ATI AIW 9700 Pro with ATI's current drivers. I don't suspect the ATI to be the issue since Hauppauge does all the recording.

3 - I am using Radio Shack Cable Splitters to all the devices in my entertainment center and have probably now split my cable about 5 times or so. Not sure if more splits means more quality degradation.

4 - I also wondered if it could be a bad cable? I did pluck some out of a box of very old cables from years gone by that I got from the Cable guy?

5 - I also upgraded from SageTV OTB to MlbDude2. Doubt that is the issue, but was a change. Unless it's is any of my Settings??

Bottom line … the picture quality was better before for the upgrade.

Any thoughts would be appreciated ...

Thanks, T.

[Opus4]

So that others can offer suggestions... What exactly is worse about it?

Have you changed any other settings in SageTV? (such as the default recording quality, decoders, etc) Since the video card changed, have you tried other decoders or settings?

With all those cable splits, how does the picture appear if it is directly connected to the TV?

Do you have a client? How does playback appear on it? Or, how do your older recordings appear when played on the server? (i.e.: is this a playback or recording issue?)

- Andy

[stanger89]

Originally posted by mightyt

Bottom line … the picture quality was better before for the upgrade.

How was it better? That would help narrow down where the problem is.

[mightyt]

Thanks Andy ... Some good input ...

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QUESTION: What exactly is worse about it?

ANSWER: What was worse it that the picture is much more grainy and is a little more blurry.

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QUESTION: Have you changed any other settings in SageTV? (such as the default recording quality, decoders, etc) Since the video card changed, have you tried other decoders or settings?

ANSWER: I did change some other settings since the ATI would alow me to do semi-transparent OSD. But here are some of the settings;

* Video Renderer = VMR9

* MPEG2 Video Decoder Filter - InterVideo Video Decoder

* DXVA ME_PEG Mode = Default

* DXVA Deinterlacing = Dafault

* DScaler Deinterlacing Filter = Disabled

* 3D Acceleration = Enabled

* Overlay Color Keying = Disabled

If there are any others you need to know, let me know ...

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QUESTION: With all those cable splits, how does the picture appear if it is directly connected to the TV?

ANSWER: Good Point, I have not checked that? With everyone home today it's hard to get to the TV. I will do it when I can squeeze myself in!

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QUESTION: Do you have a client? How does playback appear on it? Or, how do your older recordings appear when played on the server? (i.e.: is this a playback or recording issue?)

ANSWER: Yes, I have a client, recording from the server appear just as bad there as compared to before the upgrade. All of the older recordings were clear out during the upgrade. I had also upgraded my HD for more space. However, I did save some of the old recordings to my office PC as MPEG's. Do you want me to import one back to the Server?

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Oh ... and I upgraded my WinDVD from 4Plus to the new WinDVD Platinum.

T.

[mightyt]

Originally posted by stanger89
How was it better? That would help narrow down where the problem is.

Sorry, It was much less grainy and a little less blurry ...

Thanks, T.

[Opus4]

Originally posted by mightyt
What was worse it that the picture is much more grainy and is a little more blurry.

I did change some other settings since the ATI would alow me to do semi-transparent OSD. But here are some of the settings;

* Video Renderer = VMR9

Try going back to Overlay & see how it looks. VMR9 seems to have that nice ability to do semi-transparency, but to me it looks worse than overlay in the way you describe. I believe others have noted that too & maybe someone will offer suggestions to improve VMR9.

- Andy

[stanger89]

Originally posted by mightyt
Sorry, It was much less grainy and a little less blurry ...

Thanks, T.

Grainy to me indicates that you have a poor signal, dito what Andy said about checkin on a TV, further, try just one capture card and less splits and see if it's better, you may need an amp.

Yes, splits drop the signal, assuming no loss in the splitter, a 2-way split will drop you at least 3dB (1/2 the power), 4-way would be -6dB, 5 would be -7dB. That's iff they are all split with something like a 5-way splitter. If you chained a bunch of 2-way splitters, the one that only goes through 1 splitter would be -3dB, but the one that went through all 3 would be -9dB.

Moral of the story, 1 4 way splitter will leave all feeds the same power, a buch of 2-ways will leave one some bad and some good.

FWIW, I checked the RS page and their 4-way splitter is -7.5dB and the 2-ways are -3.5dB.

Sorry, more than you ever wanted to know I'm sure, guess I did get something out of college

also...

VMR9 is softer than Overlay, or maybe I should say Overlay is sharper because ATI adds extra sharpenning to Overlay.

-edit

I just remembered, if you want it a little sharper, you can try messing with the AA, AF settings in the ATI 3D settings, it's been reported that those can, "enhance detail" would be the correct term I think.

[mightyt]

Originally posted by Opus4
Try going back to Overlay & see how it looks. VMR9 seems to have that nice ability to do semi-transparency, but to me it looks worse than overlay in the way you describe. I believe others have noted that too & maybe someone will offer suggestions to improve VMR9.

- Andy

I'll give it a try ... though I do like the semi-transparent better than clear or opaque, not at the expense of picture quality.

Thanks Andy!

[mightyt]

Originally posted by stanger89
Grainy to me indicates that you have a poor signal, ditto what Andy said about checkin on a TV, further, try just one capture card and less splits and see if it's better, you may need an amp.

Yes, splits drop the signal, assuming no loss in the splitter, a 2-way split will drop you at least 3dB (1/2 the power), 4-way would be -6dB, 5 would be -7dB. That's if they are all split with something like a 5-way splitter. If you chained a bunch of 2-way splitters, the one that only goes through 1 splitter would be -3dB, but the one that went through all 3 would be -9dB.

Moral of the story, 1 4 way splitter will leave all feeds the same power, a bunch of 2-ways will leave one some bad and some good.

FWIW, I checked the RS page and their 4-way splitter is -7.5dB and the 2-ways are -3.5dB.

Sorry, more than you ever wanted to know I'm sure, guess I did get something out of college

also...

VMR9 is softer than Overlay, or maybe I should say Overlay is sharper because ATI adds extra sharpening to Overlay.

-edit

I just remembered, if you want it a little sharper, you can try messing with the AA, AF settings in the ATI 3D settings, it's been reported that those can, "enhance detail" would be the correct term I think.

Some awesome advice Stanger ... That's OK, I need to understand this splitter db biz better anyway. I am not an electronics wiz by far. You may also be right there. If I need to get an amp, what would you suggest? I looked up on Radio Shacks site and found this offering;

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1172

This is a 4 way amp. If I have more than 4, then do I use a 2 way splitter to 2 amps or daisy chain 2 amps together?

Also, I will check on the ATI settings per your suggestion as well.

Thanks!, T.


EDIT: I just took a better look at that amp. It does not have standard coax cable?? So, what would you say is best to get?

[stanger89]

No, you need an RF amplifier. RS has a couple:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1170
but actually this might work better:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D2506

There are probably nicer ones:
http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp...&search=0&off=
but either of the RS ones should work, and if they don't help, they're easilly returnable

And an FYI for ya!

One other thing, I'm not sure how good your cables are, or if you have a lot of them. But if you think you might be needing a good number of cables you could consider building them yourself. I've done it an my cables are as good or better than anything you'll find at RS. It's kind of expensive to get the right tools though so it's not for everyone. I made mine out of Canare L-5CFB cable so here's what I have:

(I tried to direct link but it's not working so here are part #s if you want to find them)

I got my stuff from Markertek
Canare TC1 Crimper
Canare TC-D-5CF Die set
Canare FP-C5F F Connectors
Canare L-5CFB RG6 Cable
Canare TS-5C Stripping tool (the TS100e is nicer, but slightly more expensive)

Of course you can make your own video, audio, Digital audio cables too if you get the right connectors:
Canare RCAP-C5F

And here's the guide that got me started:
http://www.bus.ucf.edu/cwhite/theater/diycable.htm

[Opus4]

And, if you do need an amp, be sure it is bidirectional if you are using a cable modem or a cable converter that needs to send signals back. (I don't think that first RS model is bidirectional.)

- Andy

[Opus4]

Originally posted by stanger89
One other thing, I'm not sure how good your cables are

There's another point... if you have other cables, give them a try. I've had bad cables of all kinds over the years, including coax for cable TV... that the cable co installed, even.

- Andy

[mightyt]

Stanger ...

I don't know ... maybe I will try the 2nd RS model at $50. $150 to $200 is a little steep, especially since I am not sure that's where the problem lies. Oh, and what about the problem of being over 4 outputs? Should I just split off of the amp? Or would I require a second amp?

As for the cable, yea the tools are a little costly, but I guess I have to determine what it would cost me to replace all the old cables with new prefab stuff vs. the cost of the tools.

Andy ...

On the cables is Gold Plated the way to go?

And, if I get the 2nd RS model it said Bi-Directional, so I should be cool there.

Oh, I changed to Overlay so I will have on of my Favorites record again to see if it improves back to what I use to have. I also tried tweaking the ATI 3D AA and AF, but did not see any real improvement. they were both set to 2x by default. AA went up to 6x and AF to 8x. Not sure what would be best though.

Thanks to both of you for the advice ... T.

[Opus4]

Originally posted by mightyt
On the cables is Gold Plated the way to go?

I don't know... certainly wasn't needed for me. I just meant that whether a wire/connector comes loose or some other reason, one cable can work better than another. I've had perfecetly good cables (of various sorts) that work one day & then simply no longer work the next. (Not too often, but it has happened.) I've had other cables that worked, but another cable worked better. It never hurts to check connections/cables.

I changed to Overlay so I will have on of my Favorites record again to see if it improves back to what I use to have.

Switching between overlay & vmr9 only affects playback; they have nothing to do with recording. So, you can easily change your video renderer (you may have to click the button to reload the media player or some such thing) and then go play the same recording to see how it looks.

- Andy

[mightyt]

Originally posted by Opus4
Switching between overlay & vmr9 only affects playback; they have nothing to do with recording. So, you can easily change your video renderer (you may have to click the button to reload the media player or some such thing) and then go play the same recording to see how it looks.

- Andy

What I did was ... Play a recording that was marginal, then switched from VMR9 to Overlay and viewed the same show in the same place. I went back and forth several times, but can't say that I say much difference in quality. Even though after a while the mind plays tricks on you I would expect if it was going to improve quality, it would be somewhat noticeable, right?

So, if there is no difference, should I go back to VMR9??

[Opus4]

Since you didn't notice much difference, I would return to the fact that the cable has been split so many times. Check the connections & cables. Also check to see how the recordings look if you go back to your old splitter. (Yes, I know that would mean disconnecting something for now.) If the picture improves with the old/fewer splits, you know the problem. Even non-amp splitters can come in high or low quality... my cable modem wouldn't work on one 3-way splitter, but it did with a better quality one. The better splitter didn't come from RS.

- Andy

[mightyt]

Originally posted by Opus4
Since you didn't notice much difference, I would return to the fact that the cable has been split so many times. Check the connections & cables. Also check to see how the recordings look if you go back to your old splitter. (Yes, I know that would mean disconnecting something for now.) If the picture improves with the old/fewer splits, you know the problem. Even non-amp splitters can come in high or low quality... my cable modem wouldn't work on one 3-way splitter, but it did with a better quality one. The better splitter didn't come from RS.

- Andy

This is the splitter I bought when I did the upgrade ...

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D2583


I think this is the splitter I have hooked in to one of the outputs or the 4 way ...

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D2583

[stanger89]

Yeah, I know the tools are pretty expensive, and after I bought them I realized that I over-estimated what they'd save me (I think it actually cost me more ). But it is handy to be able to just grab a couple connectors, some cable and have a new cable in a couple minutes

I'm not sure which way you should go, on the one hand you already have the splitters, so the inline amp would work well, it would more than make up for your splitter loss. But then the other one would be nice since it has a adjustable gain. Either way you should only need one amp.

Also, it sounds like you're using 2 4-way splitters, that's probably causing more problems. You really don't want to have open ports, that can cause signal leakage. I'd suggest you either replace that 2nd 4-way with a 2-way since you're only using two ports. Or alternatively you could try some terminators:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...t%5Fid=15-1156

-edit

Oh, and I wouldn't worry about gold or not, it doesn't do a whole lot other than provide corrosion resistance. If you notice the canare connectors I use aren't gold plated.

Of course OTOH, if you look at "Gold" cables compared to others, you'll probably notice that they are built far better, so in that case, I'd go for the gold ones, if only because they are built better.

[mightyt]

Originally posted by stanger89
Yeah, I know the tools are pretty expensive, and after I bought them I realized that I over-estimated what they'd save me (I think it actually cost me more ). But it is handy to be able to just grab a couple connectors, some cable and have a new cable in a couple minutes

I'm not sure which way you should go, on the one hand you already have the splitters, so the inline amp would work well, it would more than make up for your splitter loss. But then the other one would be nice since it has a adjustable gain. Either way you should only need one amp.

Also, it sounds like you're using 2 4-way splitters, that's probably causing more problems. You really don't want to have open ports, that can cause signal leakage. I'd suggest you either replace that 2nd 4-way with a 2-way since you're only using two ports. Or alternatively you could try some terminators:
http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...t%5Fid=15-1156

-edit

Oh, and I wouldn't worry about gold or not, it doesn't do a whole lot other than provide corrosion resistance. If you notice the canare connectors I use aren't gold plated.

Of course OTOH, if you look at "Gold" cables compared to others, you'll probably notice that they are built far better, so in that case, I'd go for the gold ones, if only because they are built better.

Actually I have a 4 way with on 2way connected to it ... thus 3 of the 4 ports are for devices, the 2 way connects in to the 4th and then I have the 2 from the 2 way totaling 5. So I have not open ports.

OK, then Gold is Ok, but not a necessity as far as picture quality goes.

Sounds like I hear you saying I should go with one 4 way amp (the $50 version from RS) and hook in a slitter to that to get the added port. In addition check my cables for faults.

THANKS!!!

[Opus4]

Before spending all the money, though, simply connect the cable directly to a single tuner (or just use the 2-way splitter for the 2 tuners) to see if reducing the # of splits takes you back to what the recordings used to look like. There is no guarantee this is the issue - too many splits was just one of the things to look into.

- Andy