Compatiblity Problems

[tharpers]

I dont think its ready for prime time...
I am unable to stay stable at all and have tried everything under the sun...

It really pisses me off that I bought this 350 directly from sage and the damn thing simply does not work with this product...

Sage has corrupted my audio driver twice now...staggers when I fast forward or rewind too fast....too many problems....

My rant...

I cant believe that anyone has this working with any kind of acceptable picture quality...

[krutaw]

Originally posted by tharpers
I dont think its ready for prime time...
I am unable to stay stable at all and have tried everything under the sun...

It really pisses me off that I bought this 350 directly from sage and the damn thing simply does not work with this product...

Sage has corrupted my audio driver twice now...staggers when I fast forward or rewind too fast....too many problems....

My rant...

I cant believe that anyone has this working with any kind of acceptable picture quality...

Tharpers,

First, take a deep breath... sounds like you need one. ;-)

Secondly, I am currently using a PVR-350 with my system and it's rock solid. I'm even using beta code for the commercial advance, and that's rock solid. When people that own TiVo's come over to my house, they get mad because my video out looks better than theirs.

Simply put, if you set it up right on hardware that doesn't have known incompatibilities, it will work, and work well.

[carlgar]

Originally posted by krutaw
Simply put, if you set it up right on hardware that doesn't have known incompatibilities, it will work, and work well.

While this statement is probably correct. Why doesn't Frey get the message? They could have saved a lot of their customers a lot of time and money by listing the hardware they test with. Perhaps the customers should stop providing free support here until frey gets their act together and start providing useful information for their customers. I am assuming that frey is in business to make money, but perhaps this is just a tax loss business to support their hobby.

[mls]

Actually, the SageTV software itself is not at the root of the problem. The compatibility problems stem from the drivers supplied by the capture card makers.

Can't say I've every had any problem with either SageTV v1.4 or v2.0 on any of my computers using the PVR-250 cards (which was what things started from).

Adding other cards like the 350 or Roslyn is where the driver problems seemed to have started. Microsoft has said many times that poor drivers cause system instability and that's just as true for these as for any other device driver.

As such, I think it's the people at Hauppauge that need to get their act together. Frey can't do much else other than report problems back to Hauppauge and then wait for Hauppauge to come up with a solution.

On the other hand, Hauppuage doesn't market their own products for multiple tuner usage either. So, from their side of things, their devices generally do not have as many problems when used with their own software.

So, not sure who really should be doing more testing on their end and/or who should be putting out better information about what works and what doesn't.

[jominor]

Originally posted by carlgar
While this statement is probably correct. Why doesn't Frey get the message? They could have saved a lot of their customers a lot of time and money by listing the hardware they test with. Perhaps the customers should stop providing free support here until frey gets their act together and start providing useful information for their customers. I am assuming that frey is in business to make money, but perhaps this is just a tax loss business to support their hobby.

Well, not only am I happy, but even the wife. In fact, a friend recently put together a Sage box and he's pretty pleased.

Now, with that being said, I did quite a bit of reading(here and on BTV's forum) before I got my card. I already had the computer. I've got a pretty cheap sis based ASUS board, and all is well. I use a pair of 250s v16. One was purchased from Sage, the other traded for a store bought v15.

I would say that Carlgar is correct in that Frey should offer at least a recommended setup, but at least for my money, I'm sold on the software.

[mls]

One thing people need to understand is that SageTV is a "work in progress". As I pointed out, the SageTV software itself will run on almost any computer running Windows 98 or later that is capable of playing a DVD properly.

So, for the most part, there's only a few klinkers with SageTV itself. It's the device drivers that cause all the compatibility problems. Even Windows will not run properly with the wrong drivers, so that's nothing new.

Since the drivers are being constantly changed and upgraded to fix problems, it would be pretty hard to make a list saying exactly what hardware works and what doesn't. What won't work today might tomorrow when a different driver comes out (making the hardware compatibility list outdated).

Hey, after all, it's not any worse than Microsoft releasing WinXP with 1,000's of security flaws and not bothering to fix any of them for years until someone hauls them into court (which seems to be the only way to get MS to fix anything at all).

At least Frey and Hauppauge are trying to do a better job than that.

[carlgar]

Originally posted by mls
One thing people need to understand is that SageTV is a "work in progress". As I pointed out, the SageTV software itself will run on almost any computer running Windows 98 or later that is capable of playing a DVD properly.

I don't buy this argument at all except for beta versions. That is the purpose of beta testing is to determine if the product works before making a release. Yes, there will probably alway be new bugs being found. I have no problem with the bugs. I just have a problem with Frey failing to do what they can to list hardware which is known to cause problems and list hardware that they have tested with and encountered no problems. I got burned by the type 15/16 card combination bug. Narflex stated serveral times that he did not see a problem with his "workstation". He should have stated what his system was so other people could get the same equipment. This problem was finally solved 8 months after I encountered it and almost 12 months after others first reported the issue. This probably was not a direct SageTV issue, but seen by users of SageTV. I ended buying more computer equipment just to work around the issue, only to be burned by other problems. If Frey would have listed their primary test equiment, I would have done my best to get the same.

So, for the most part, there's only a few klinkers with SageTV itself. It's the device drivers that cause all the compatibility problems. Even Windows will not run properly with the wrong drivers, so that's nothing new.

I think there are more "klinkers" than you think there are. I have not yet upgraded to 2.0, party because of my fear of new "klinkers". I am still learning all the "klinkers" in the 1.4 version. I just starting using the intelligent recording the other day. I have seen it delete unwatch IR recordings before deleting watched shows which I fail to understand at this point. I also had a couple of unwatch favorite shows present last night but were gone this morning when I went to watch them. I don't know why they were deleted but suspect some "klinker" related to IR.

Since the drivers are being constantly changed and upgraded to fix problems, it would be pretty hard to make a list saying exactly what hardware works and what doesn't. What won't work today might tomorrow when a different driver comes out (making the hardware compatibility list outdated).

no problem which this statement, I would agree. However, once a problem is corrected the people that had the problem and see that it is corrected could state that. This would bring up the point that if Frey would list equiment with problems they would include the current drivers or SageTV version that are currently in use. The list may at times be out of date but at least users would have a guide. Instead you currently have a lot of users asking here if such and such should work. I would be satisfied at this point just for Frey to list what they test with.

Hey, after all, it's not any worse than Microsoft releasing WinXP with 1,000's of security flaws and not bothering to fix any of them for years until someone hauls them into court (which seems to be the only way to get MS to fix anything at all).

I don't think anybody said MS was the high mark. Their goal should be no bugs or issues.

At least Frey and Hauppauge are trying to do a better job than that.

I certainly hope so. At this point it appears that Frey is doing much better than Hauppauge. However, their goal should be to do the most that they can for their customers. Is it really that hard to list what equiment they have available and use for testing?

[mls]

I think there is a lot more we could discuss about all this. However, I'm not sure exactly why the post that started this discussion (tharpers post) was even in this thread to start with.

Since most of what we are discussing has nothing to do with the original poster's laptop problems... I think I'll ask a mod to split this thread so we can continue things seperately.

[chrysek]

Originally posted by carlgar
While this statement is probably correct. Why doesn't Frey get the message? They could have saved a lot of their customers a lot of time and money by listing the hardware they test with. Perhaps the customers should stop providing free support here until frey gets their act together and start providing useful information for their customers. I am assuming that frey is in business to make money, but perhaps this is just a tax loss business to support their hobby.

Bravo, I could not say it beter.. Had exactly the same problem.... If I knew what to buy I would not make a mistake of buying abit VT7 motherboard, I would go for gigabyte which I did purchase on Thursday. It would save me not only $$$ but time and unger...


Chris


PS: THERE SHOULD BE A RECOMMENDED HARDWARE SECTION ON THEIR WEBSITE WHICH DOES LIST WHATS BEST RECOMMENDED CONFIGURATION TO WORK WITH SAGETV ETC.

[krutaw]

Originally posted by carlgar
I am still learning all the "klinkers" in the 1.4 version.

Carlgar,

No wonder you're so upset with the product. Heck, I was upset with the product until I had used 2.0 w/ a working combination of a PVR-350/nForceII chipset motheboard. Since then I've been way happy. Heck, I've even sold a few people on building their own pvr solution instead of buying a TiVo.

[carlgar]

I really am not upset with the product at this point. I am however disappointed by what I believe to be a lack of concern from frey. Frey could take 15 minutes out of their life to post information and save a countless time and money for their customers. Currently they seem to value their customers time and money at zero.
I currently have a system that works as well as what I had expected back in Nov. of 2003.

You need to see my December 2003 post for when I was really upset with the product.

[mls]

Originally posted by chrysek
If I knew what to buy I would not make a mistake of buying abit VT7 motherboard

At this point, I don't think anyone can actually say an Abit VT7 will not work with SageTV. I think it depends how it is set up and what drivers.

PS: THERE SHOULD BE A RECOMMENDED HARDWARE SECTION ON THEIR WEBSITE WHICH DOES LIST WHATS BEST RECOMMENDED CONFIGURATION TO WORK WITH SAGETV ETC.

Within reason (as with any software actually) they do list "recommendations" for hardware in the SageTV System Requirements

However, it's not a "perfect" world and an exact list is often impossible to make (see my next post regarding that).

[mls]

Originally posted by carlgar
Is it really that hard to list what equiment they have available and use for testing?

As far as what THEY themselves have, I don't think that would be to unreasonable of a request. However, even if one purchased the EXACT same hardware it may not work correctly for anyone else.

Here's an example of giving 4 different people the exact same hardware. For simplicity I'll on discuss mostly the motherboard side of things and not get into video, sound, or other device drivers. As you will see, a lot depends on how much understanding of computers each individual has and how they set up their machine.

PERSON #1:
This person know nothing about computers other than what the manuals say to screw things together and connect cables. He doesn't bother with checking any BIOS settings or even bother with installing any of the drivers for the motherboard hardware.

This machine will not peform very well and crash a lot.

PERSON #2:
This person tries to follow the directions for the motherboard a bit closer and makes the "recommened" changes for the BIOS and actually takes the time to install the motherboard drivers.

This machine will run much better than the 1st, but may still have performance and crashing problems.

PERSON #4:
This person thinks he knows enough to at least check the web for updated BIOS and motherboard drivers. Flashes the BIOS with the newest version and installs the newest motherboard drivers.

This machine SHOULD perform better than either of the first 2, but then again maybe not.

The flaw here is sometimes newer BIOS or drivers may have other flaws that were not in the original that could cause other unknown problems. Hopefully a future upgrade will then fix those problems, but ya never know.

Sometimes an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude may work better.

PERSON #4:
This person has a LOT of free time to try all of the above in various combinations and also checks/changes/tweaks various BIOS settings (beyound what the manual recommends).

After 20 or 30 attempts at clean installs of Windows, this machine will very likely outperform any of the others and seldom crash.

This is the process most of the better "packaged" computer sellers (such as Dell or whoever) go thru to insure the best performance/reliability they can. However, that only holds true as long as one does not change or add any hardware to the system.

Now, notice we have 4 different people that can get TOTALLY different results just trying to even get Windows to run properly. We NEVER EVEN TOUCHED anything with getting video cards, sound cards, printers, or any other devices working at this point.

The klinker is that you can install Windows on almost any PC and it will make some attempt at booting up and running. However, that doesn't mean it runs correctly just because it does boot up.

If you can't even get the same results just installing the Operating System (Window) then how the heck can anyone expect to get the same results from any software they install (such as SageTV).

UNIX/Linux machines simply will NOT operate this way. It is a flaw in Microsoft's concept of one OS fits all and will work with everything that is the root cause of almost all the problems.

And, since Microsoft constantly keeps changing how Windows operates, that makes it extremally hard for the software/hardware makers to keep up with making anything that works correctly with it.

Anyway, a simple hardware list of what does (or does not) work really would make no difference without a complete setup procedure for everything. And the exact setup procedure would have to cover everything from BIOS version and settings, motherboard driver versions and upgrades, to exact settings within Windows... and that's all BEFORE even getting to anything else.

Try to include video cards, sound cards, and other specifics, plus any though to other upgrades do to flaws in the originals would take an entire encyclopedia set of books full of step-by-step to every get the same results from any 2 otherwise identical sets of hardware.

Sorry, it's just not a perfect "Plug-n-Play" world no matter what Microsoft would like you to believe.

[jphhughes]

I believe carlgar is right. On the basis of his posts I would consider him a very reasonable person as pertains to giving the produce a chance. The problems as I see it is this deadly silence from Frey on this issue of the 350. Hey if it just doesn't work just say so, or say something, anything.

[chrysek]

Originally posted by mls
At this point, I don't think anyone can actually say an Abit VT7 will not work with SageTV. I think it depends how it is set up and what drivers.



Within reason (as with any software actually) they do list "recommendations" for hardware in the SageTV System Requirements

However, it's not a "perfect" world and an exact list is often impossible to make (see my next post regarding that).

Well I think I did try all combinations of drivers, setups, I had PVR-250's mixed with PVR-250's and had only PVR-250 in it, mimimum setups, multiple OS reinstalations, service packs, beleive me, I did try a lot to get my ABIT to work... It was crashing like crazy, not even watching video, it was crashing by changing menus, by viewing pictures, it was crazy.... Now with my new gygabyte motherboard and all old parts I've used in my ABIT motherboard works without a single crash... fresh instalation no problem... I am very confident that with a setup I've created it was my motherboard that was causing my system to freeze and resets....

So once again, if there was a list of rock solid configurations I would chose such aproach instead of buying something that might or might not work... Thats my opinion... would save me at least $80 for the abit mb...

[mls]

Originally posted by jphhughes
I believe carlgar is right. On the basis of his posts I would consider him a very reasonable person as pertains to giving the produce a chance. The problems as I see it is this deadly silence from Frey on this issue of the 350. Hey if it just doesn't work just say so, or say something, anything.

That I will totally agree with.

Several months ago, I had ordered a PVR-250 bundle from Frey. I got an e-mail that they were out of 250's asking if it was ok to substitute the newer Rolyn (saying they were phasing out the 250's).

I then asked if it would work with Win98SE like my 250 did and they said yes. So, I agreed... and have had nothing but a nightmare with that card since (although I think I finally beat it after 2 months of *MY* time and effort, not theirs).

I have also found several other problems with SageTV v2.0 working with Win98 and reported them.

At that time, I had also told Dan (CEO of Frey) that they REALLY should put a notice on their website that some of the hardware and software they were selling may NOT work correctly with Windows 98.

Although some things can be worked around, others can not. From working with tech support on some issues I got a notice that some of these MAY be fixed or have work arounds in a supposed upcoming v2.1 release.

However, they still have not put any notice on their web site about Win98 compatiblity problems. While BTV has listed that as a system requirement (and even they are having problems).

Hmm, I may do something drastic here... see if I do (or not) in my next post.

[carlgar]

Originally posted by mls
As far as what THEY themselves have, I don't think that would be to unreasonable of a request. However, even if one purchased the EXACT same hardware it may not work correctly for anyone else.

Here's an example of giving 4 different people the exact same hardware. For simplicity I'll on discuss mostly the motherboard side of things and not get into video, sound, or other device drivers. As you will see, a lot depends on how much understanding of computers each individual has and how they set up their machine.
.
.
.
Now, notice we have 4 different people that can get TOTALLY different results just trying to even get Windows to run properly. We NEVER EVEN TOUCHED anything with getting video cards, sound cards, printers, or any other devices working at this point.

While the above examples are possible, I think you are taking it too extremes. Can you find any examples of these extremes in these forums? I think the type of compatibility issues being addressed are when a certain card does not work properly with a certain chipset.

The klinker is that you can install Windows on almost any PC and it will make some attempt at booting up and running. However, that doesn't mean it runs correctly just because it does boot up.

If you can't even get the same results just installing the Operating System (Window) then how the heck can anyone expect to get the same results from any software they install (such as SageTV).

I have never seen any issues that you describe above. I must assume you are referring to self-built systems. I can only say that with such a problem, the builder probably did not connect something correctly. It is also possible that something could have come loose in shipping.

UNIX/Linux machines simply will NOT operate this way. It is a flaw in Microsoft's concept of one OS fits all and will work with everything that is the root cause of almost all the problems.

And, since Microsoft constantly keeps changing how Windows operates, that makes it extremally hard for the software/hardware makers to keep up with making anything that works correctly with it.

I totally disagree, the purpose of an OS is too provide a common interface that software can be written for and run on any system that the OS does. Although MS has taken the term OS much further and now uses it to destroy other companies.

Anyway, a simple hardware list of what does (or does not) work really would make no difference without a complete setup procedure for everything. And the exact setup procedure would have to cover everything from BIOS version and settings, motherboard driver versions and upgrades, to exact settings within Windows... and that's all BEFORE even getting to anything else.

Again I would disagree it would make a difference. I am sure it would not solve all the problems but would be a good first step. The first step is solving any problem is to understand why only some people are encountering it. The more people that have the same type of hardware the easier it would be to see if it is likely a user type error. The list would only tell a user what Frey has to work with and has tested with, it would be a requirement. This would at least indicate that using other hardware and having problems could take a while to find out what the problem is.

Try to include video cards, sound cards, and other specifics, plus any though to other upgrades do to flaws in the originals would take an entire encyclopedia set of books full of step-by-step to every get the same results from any 2 otherwise identical sets of hardware.

Sorry, it's just not a perfect "Plug-n-Play" world no matter what Microsoft would like you to believe.

I would agree that you cannot address everything, but you can at least make an attemp at the major issues. Again I would like to point out that I have not seen any attemp by Frey themselves to determine if some problems are related to certain type of hardware. I am only a user of the software and have no idea what Frey does internally. But it looks to me like Frey just says ho-hum, no problem with our software. It must be the layers of software we are using as our foundation, so up to the user to resolve.

btw: I always refer to Frey instead of indivual names to avoid it sounding like a personal attack. I am addressing issues that I think the company could change that would make the product better for the general public. Also, I still see some posts that refer to Frey as a 2 man company. It is at least a 3 man company now because most customer support replies I see come from a third person.

[mls]

I'll get back to comments on the other posts in time. However, as I had mentioned I'm taking some drastic action here to help resolve a lot of this.

As such, here is a copy of the e-mail I have just sent to Frey:

Hey Dan,

Been a while so thought I'd update you on a few things.

First off, so far, no luck with any problems I've reported.

Second, you may have noticed that despite that, I've attempted to help others in the forum. However, no matter how much I (or the others) try to help people in the forum that is no substitute for your own direct intevention and feedback.

Some time ago I had told you that you REALLY should put some sort of warning notices on your website concerning certain thing (especially relating to Win98). You still have not done so (while BeyoundTV lists XP as a system requirement).

Likewise, other problems relating to the Roslyn or SageTV v2.0 were never posted on your website.

I, and others feel it is not only a duty, but an obligation that you keep your web site as honest and updated as possible. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON people should have to search thru hundreds of post in a forum to find out what does and does not work and/or under what conditions. That is clearly unacceptable business practice.

When I (and others) downloaded SageTV we had to fill in an e-mail address SUPPOSEDLY to be informed of any issues with SageTV. So far, I (and apparently others) have not received any such e-mail from your end even though there have been a large number of issues that we all should have been informed of.

Once again, I urge you to take a more pro-active approach in your business effort and not only make appropriate changes to your web site, but also keep everyone informed via the "supposed" mailing list we were required to give our e-mail addresses for.

All I (and others) are asking (at this point before revolting) is that you be COMPLETELY HONEST AND UPFRONT with all of us by keeping us all informed and keeping your web site updated with more detailed information.

Likewise, it would not be a bad idea for either you or Jeff to be more ACTIVE in the forum. I realize Jeff is pretty busy trying to work on bug fixes and such in the software. However, that's no reason (even with your own limited computer knowledge) to not dive in with the rest of us and get a little dirt on your hands. I (and others) feel that would be well worth your time and effort and would give you a much better feeling of what all your customers really want.

As I have mentioned before, I am totally willing to beta test *ANY* hardware or software you are thinking about *BEFORE* you release it to the general public. Not too many other people are as willing to do so, especially if they have had problems. However, I do have plenty of free time and computers that I can bounce around between (possibly easier then you). So, once again I offer my services.

Meanwhile, I strongly suggest you take a more active and honest approach to your bussiness. This e-mail will be posted in this thread so others can judge your response:

http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...&threadid=6882

Regards,
Milt

[mls]

Originally posted by carlgar

btw: I always refer to Frey instead of indivual names to avoid it sounding like a personal attack. I am addressing issues that I think the company could change that would make the product better for the general public. Also, I still see some posts that refer to Frey as a 2 man company. It is at least a 3 man company now because most customer support replies I see come from a third person.

It is already a well know fact that Dan and Jeff Kardatzke are 2 brothers that started Frey Technologies, LLC. Here's just one news item about that.

I do not know if George is being paid or just volunteering his time as tech support.

In any case, I do not wish to point blaim at anyone. However, since I know Dan does the business end, Jeff does the programming, and George does support I often refer to them by their names (usually in reference to a specific area also) even if THEY may be considered together as Frey Technologies, LLC.

On the other hand, I could just as easily try to point blaim at Bill Gates or Steve Ballmer for all of Microsoft's flaws (I'd say more Steves than Bill's since Bill really hasn't run that company for several years now, more just a major stock holder and representative now... not like he really needs the money anymore anyway).

Strange, I'm honest and tell it like it is with names, yet you want to use Frey as a catch all to cover up exactly what and who you are complaining about. Weird.

[carlgar]

Originally posted by mls
Strange, I'm honest and tell it like it is with names, yet you want to use Frey as a catch all to cover up exactly what and who you are complaining about. Weird.

I believe that I am just as honest as you are. However, I like to deal with facts and not speculation. Your statements about how the company is currently setup is the same as what I currently believe. But neither one of us knows for sure how they operate internally or even how many employees they have working or volunteering for them.

I am not attempting to cover up anything, I am addressing issues that the company should address. I think Jeff is in a better position to address the issue of what equipment they have, but Dan probably has the paperwork for what they have purchased and could also address it.

While in principle I agree with your letter to frey. I think you were a little hash. Your "That is clearly unacceptable business practice." statement was over the line. It is their business and they are entitled to run it any way they want. I would saw it is poor business practice. The only unacceptable business practice for me is a company breaking the law or knowling making incorrect or misleading statements. I have not seen any sign of Frey coming anywhere close to this line.

They did stop selling the Roslyn cards and offered refunds when problems surfaced about the cards. I think they should have posted warnings about the 15/16 mixed card issue. That is a gray area since they did not see the issues and other users also reported not seeing the problem.