New User Seeks Guidance from you Experts

[Air]

Hi, just joined

If you guys could help me, that'd be great. Seems like you know your stuff from what I've read.

I have the Hauppage WinTV PVR USB2 w/SageTV combo. The intervideo non css for hauppage decoder looks pretty good, as good as the elecard decoder w/deinterlace.

Here's my problem. First, how do I get NVDVD? I'd like to test it before buying it, even though I probably wouldn't dump $40 on it for the codec.

My ffdshow problem is this, I install it, go into the config, and select all the codecs in the left column. The mpeg1&2 boxes under raw video are grayed out.

In SageTV, I select it as the decoder. It doesn't let me select deinterlace as an option (stuck at disabled). When I try to watch video, I get this error:
There was a MPEG-2 Video error in playback. Details:
Unable to find named input pin on specified MPEG2 video decoder filter
errcode=0xffffffff

Am I missing a step? I'm new to all of this and don't really know how everything works yet. This is even scarier than when I first was setting up and learning Exact Audio Copy .

Any help is appreciated. Thank you!

Also, a good, in depth link to a guide would be great! I've looked through the SageTV review at htpc which gives some tips, but I obviously didn't figure it out on my own since ffd doesn't work.

Thanks again!

[stanger89]

Originally posted by Air
Hi, just joined

If you guys could help me, that'd be great. Seems like you know your stuff from what I've read.

I have the Hauppage WinTV PVR USB2 w/SageTV combo. The intervideo non css for hauppage decoder looks pretty good, as good as the elecard decoder w/deinterlace.

Here's my problem. First, how do I get NVDVD? I'd like to test it before buying it, even though I probably wouldn't dump $40 on it for the codec.

The simple answer is you can't, nVidia has stopped distributing nVDVD 2.55 in prep for Forceware Multimedia, but that hasn't gone public yet.

More complicated:
You can get nVDVD 2 from newegg for $7
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProduc...164-001&depa=0
Or you may be able to find Forceware (aka nVDVD 3) if you look for it.

My ffdshow problem is this, I install it, go into the config, and select all the codecs in the left column. The mpeg1&2 boxes under raw video are grayed out.

Actually you probably only want Raw Video - All Supported selected, all others can be disabled.

In SageTV, I select it as the decoder. It doesn't let me select deinterlace as an option (stuck at disabled).

The Sage deinterlacing options (in Video Setup) are only available with the Elecard decoder.

When I try to watch video, I get this error:
There was a MPEG-2 Video error in playback. Details:
Unable to find named input pin on specified MPEG2 video decoder filter
errcode=0xffffffff

I'm guessing you have an old version of ffdshow, try this one:
http://www.afterdawn.com/software/vi...rs/ffdshow.cfm

Am I missing a step? I'm new to all of this and don't really know how everything works yet. This is even scarier than when I first was setting up and learning Exact Audio Copy .

Yeah, ffdshow can be tricky.

Any help is appreciated. Thank you!

Also, a good, in depth link to a guide would be great! I've looked through the SageTV review at htpc which gives some tips, but I obviously didn't figure it out on my own since ffd doesn't work.

Thanks again!

You might want to check out the link in my signature

[Air]

I went to that guide but I didn't really see much information on configuring decoders. That's what I really need the help on

Also, do you guys reccommend NVDVD or Sonic decoders? Which offers best quality? CPU usage?

Also, can you use Cyberlink decoders or no?

Thanks again!

I forgot to ask. Do you select a different encoder (like sonic for example) and use ffdshow for the deinterlace or do you have to select ffdshow as the video decoder?

Selecting the ffdshow decoder you linked in SageTV gives an mpeg-2 video error again. It says:
Unable to connect demultiplexor to specified mpeg2 video decoder input pin errcode=0x80040217

Am I supposed to pick elecard, nvdvd, or sonic as the mpeg2 decoder and use ffdshow as a plugin?

Please help, this is too new for me

I found this http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=246752 but I wasn't able to really make much use of it.

Like I asked before, any guides on setting up decoders/ffdshow that have images or step by step guides? Thank you SO much!

[stanger89]

Sorry, I thought I had more in there about ffdshow than I do.

Here's the deal with ffdshow, it's not a decoder, it's a post processor. For some background, Sage uses Directshow to build "graphs" which are just collections of "filters" (generic term for decoders, renderers, etc.). When Sage builds a graph it seems to build it "indirectly" where it says use x,y,z filters and then tells Directshow to connect them as neccessary.

Normaly when you select say Intervideo decoder Sage would tell directshow to use x file, intervideo decoder and VMR9 renderer (for example) and then Directshow automatically connects the filters and loads any other needed filters. When you select ffdshow, it does the same thing, but since no decoder is specified Directshow will load the default MPEG decoder. So in essence the ability to select ffdshow as a "decoder" relies on a quirk of Directshow.

OK so that was more than you wanted to know probably but hopefully it helps you understand how ffdshow fits in. Basically there are two ways to get ffdshow working with SageTV, select it as the decoder, or you can specify a decoder (eg Intervideo NonCSS) and select Default as the video renderer.

On to your questions:

Originally posted by Air
I went to that guide but I didn't really see much information on configuring decoders. That's what I really need the help on

Also, do you guys reccommend NVDVD or Sonic decoders? Which offers best quality? CPU usage?

CPU Usage is comporable on all decoders any more, especially since CPUs have so much more power than is necessary for MPEG decoding. Right now I'm just using Sonic decoders w/o ffdshow, the simple setup is nice. I've given up on nVDVD until Forceware Multimedia (3.0) is officially released.

Also, can you use Cyberlink decoders or no?

You can use any decoders you want, but Cyberlink decoders don't work with VMR9, and I'm just not fond of them anyway. My recommendation goes for Sonic, at least until FWMM is released.

Thanks again!

I forgot to ask. Do you select a different encoder (like sonic for example) and use ffdshow for the deinterlace or do you have to select ffdshow as the video decoder?

As I said above, you can either select ffdshow as a decoder (in which case the default decoder will be used) or you can specify a decoder and then Default for the Video Renderer.

Selecting the ffdshow decoder you linked in SageTV gives an mpeg-2 video error again. It says:
Unable to connect demultiplexor to specified mpeg2 video decoder input pin errcode=0x80040217

My two guesses on this:

You don't have an MPEG decoder installed.

or

You're MPEG decoder is set to use DXVA which won't work with ffdshow.

Am I supposed to pick elecard, nvdvd, or sonic as the mpeg2 decoder and use ffdshow as a plugin?

I'm hoping Jeff will modify Sage so that we can select ffdshow as a plugin (similar to dscaler deinterlacing w/ Elecard) so we don't have to resort to these tricks to use it.

Please help, this is too new for me

I found this http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=246752 but I wasn't able to really make much use of it.

Like I asked before, any guides on setting up decoders/ffdshow that have images or step by step guides? Thank you SO much!

You might want to look at this guide, it's not about Sage but may help you see how the peices fit together:
http://htpcnews.com/main.php?id=ffdshowdvd_1

[Air]

Ok. So I should go to Sonic and download the DVD codec (since it's half the cost of Cineplayer and it will allow DVD playback anyway).

I also download ffdshow and install this.

Since I can't have ffdshow selected as the decoder, will it automatically act as a post-processor if I select Sonic decoder?

Also, how do I get ffdshow to work when selected as the decoder? I have the Intervideo and Elecard codecs installed, so what haven't I set up correctly either in SageTV or in the ffdshow configuration that I get these errors? Is there a page or instructions where it shows how to configure ffdshow for sagetv and vice-versa? Or, if you're very kind, could you ?

Thanks again. I found the link and your information interesting. I think what you said is that it isn't the codec, but it runs additional filters to improve image quality on top of whatever codec you use.

I saw in your link to enable raw in ffdshow. Do I also enable mpeg2? It is disabled. If so, do I use libavcodec or libmpeg2? I have no idea what either is.

SageTV works with ffdshow selected as decoder now after enabling raw and using libavcodec for mpeg1 and 2, but should I enable it? Also, the image is very "blocky," jerky, and slow so I obviously have some bad settings in ffdshow. Again, a list of things to set would be great (either a whole list or just what to change from the defaults).

I assume I should leave the DXVA stuff under video in SageTV at default since ffdshow should be running the processing on this anyway, correct?

Lastly, how do I know/choose which codec ffdshow uses when I select it as a decoder? I don't want it using Intervideo if I buy Sonic!

Thanks again for all the help stanger89! You've been very helpful and kind You'll have me running crystal clear TV on my Sager 4750 for college in no time!

[stanger89]

Originally posted by Air
Ok. So I should go to Sonic and download the DVD codec (since it's half the cost of Cineplayer and it will allow DVD playback anyway).

If you've got it working you don't really need ot get Sonic, but yes the DVD decoder pack is all you would need.

I also download ffdshow and install this.

Since I can't have ffdshow selected as the decoder, will it automatically act as a post-processor if I select Sonic decoder?

If you specify a decoder (like Sonic) you need to set the Video Renderer (right above the decoder in Sage) to Default.

Also, how do I get ffdshow to work when selected as the decoder? I have the Intervideo and Elecard codecs installed, so what haven't I set up correctly either in SageTV or in the ffdshow configuration that I get these errors? Is there a page or instructions where it shows how to configure ffdshow for sagetv and vice-versa? Or, if you're very kind, could you ?

See this can be somewhat tricky, first you need to find out what decoder is default on your system, the easiest way is probably to just play a Sage file in Windows Media Player and then go to File -> Properties and see what decoder is being used.

Most likely there's nothing wrong in your Sage or ffdshow setup, it could just be that the default decoder on your system doesn't work with ffdshow.

Try the media player thing and let me know what decoder it's using and I'll see if I can help more with that.

Thanks again. I found the link and your information interesting. I think what you said is that it isn't the codec, but it runs additional filters to improve image quality on top of whatever codec you use.

Yup.

I saw in your link to enable raw in ffdshow. Do I also enable mpeg2? It is disabled. If so, do I use libavcodec or libmpeg2? I have no idea what either is.

No you don't need to enable MPEG2, in fact I'd advise not. If you enable MPEG2 in ffdshow, theoretically ffdshow could be both decode and filter, but the MPEG2 support (decode) in ffdshow is buggy, so RAW video is all you need.

SageTV works with ffdshow selected as decoder now after enabling raw and using libavcodec for mpeg1 and 2, but should I enable it?

Enable what? You shouldn't need MPEG 1 or 2 enabled.

I assume I should leave the DXVA stuff under video in SageTV at default since ffdshow should be running the processing on this anyway, correct?

Yes, in fact changing the DXVA settings will probably break using ffdshow.

Lastly, how do I know/choose which codec ffdshow uses when I select it as a decoder? I don't want it using Intervideo if I buy Sonic!

Generally the last codec you install is the default. In other words, each codec sets itself as default on install so the last on wins. There are ways to change it but lets not mess with that unless we have to.

Thanks again for all the help stanger89! You've been very helpful and kind You'll have me running crystal clear TV on my Sager 4750 for college in no time!

Not a problem.

[Air]

I won't get another chance to try it out until wednesday, but when I do I'll try playing a file to see which decoder is being used.

Thanks for all the help once again! They should just bundle ffdshow into Sage as a free module, it's opensource after all.

[Air]

I found this page: http://htpcnews.com/main.php?id=ffdshowdvd_4
Are these the same settings you use when using ffdshow with SageTV?

Also, what's the best quality decoder? If I get Elecard, would setting up ffdshow be necessary since you can set deinterlace in SageTV?

I will probably get Sonic since you recommended it stanger89, but asking can't hurt before you spend money
Is this forceware mm going to be very good? How soon is it coming out? I can wait about a little before buying the codec and just use intervideo css in the meantime (although I'm not sure it works with ffdshow). Is intervideo css inferior in terms of quality (I've read it is in terms of CPU usage) to Sonic? If it's the same with only 5-10% diff cpu usage, is it worth switching?

Thanks again for your help stanger89!

[kny3twalker]

everything you watch in Sage is deinterlaced by the way
ffdshow is just to improve the picture quality
Sonic decoder pack does a pretty good job of deinterlacing
thats why I believe stanger89 said he is using it by itself without ffdshow
also the improvements are very CPU hungary and unless you have a fast computer it can cause the picture to stutter
I have ffdshow lock up SageTV
many times
just start checking boxes and see how much it takes
glad stanger89 helped you out with these questions
and I hope you got my pm

also Sonic produces great quality picture in comparsion to intervideo decoders
the DVD decoder pack is only 15 dollars and nvDVD 3 (forceware multimedia) will probably be awhile

if you get the DVD decoder pack you cannot upgrade to the full Cineplayer surround though (so it not upgradeable)

[stanger89]

Right now I'm not even using ffdshow, but when I was I used Denoise3D .5 .5 1 and unsharp mask at about 30 I think. But now I'm just using strait Sonic video decoder with DXVA enabled on my Radeon 9500 w/o any complaints.

First I would ask you if you find something lacking with your current setup, if not then I see no reason to switch. As for which decoder is the "best" everyone seems to have their own answer to that. Sonic was the favorite at AVS for a long time, lately discussion has been between Elecard and WinDVD, with FWMM probably being right up there if it were available. If it means anything Theatertek has selected FWMM as the decoder for the 2.0 release.

Truthfully, there's no huge difference between codecs any more, there just aren't really any bad ones. My advice to you would proably be to stick with the NonCSS decoders for now. Also, I'd suggest trying DXVA w/o ffdshow with the NonCSS decoders (see here for how to do that).

There's a couple reasons I say that, it's free, and there are some interesting decoders comming out sometime soon (presumeably). First is FWMM, which looks to be the one to get possibly, and second there are some alpha Dscaler decoders out now that look very promising, I'm keeping a close eye on them since right now PQ seems right up there with FWMM, but it sounds like the plan for the Dscaler decoder is to include some/all of Dscaler's advanced deinterlacing/filtering techniques that would seem to be the holy grail of sorts for our type of application.

Basically unless you require DVD playback (w/o ripping) I'd say stick with the NonCSS decoders for now, or if you want to play DVDs direct and/or want to experiment give Sonic a shot, it's hard to go wrong at that price.

[Air]

Picture quality really isn't bad, I was just hoping to see if I could eek out some more quality since my laptop is going to be my tv .

I'll play around for a little. Watching DVDs in Sage isn't a huge deal since I have an oem version of cyberlink powerdvd that I can use.

I'm curious what FWMM has that Sonic doesn't. I know that elecard has deinterlacing built in, but I haven't been able to try sonic so I don't know about them.

Basically, is FWMM really worth holding out for? Also, how do you find Sonic's quality compared to the Intervideo? Elecard?

Thanks again all!

[Air]

Also, what is DXVA? (I know, I'm a noob)
It is a form of deinterlace, right? If not, which deinterlace is the best method (bob&weave, split...etc.)?

Also, do you just leave these at default after doing the edit at the performance tweak page?

I noticed, stanger89, that you said,

Go into Detailed Setup->Video and make sure DXVA MPEG Mode, and DXVA Deinterlace Mode are set to default.

Does this apply regardless of whether you are using intervideo, sonic, or nvdvd? Should you apply the tweaks on that thread regardless of the decoder being used?

Thanks again Giving you guys a workout!

[kny3twalker]

FWMM has its own post processor like ffdshow but not near as configurable
and all decoders are different
when using overlay they are all pretty close
when using VMR9 I see big differences
nvDVD produces closer real image colors than Sonic
Sonic the color is more washed out
but the NvDVDs color looks kind of fake
and all decoders deinterlace the video you see whether liveTV or recorded
elecard can just use different kinds of deinterlacing via dscaler
DXVA is hardware accelerated deinterlacing
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...guide_9inb.asp



also you can change the bob and weave for all decoders but not all decoders support all DXVA modes
the link above should help read through it

[Air]

Between NVDVD, Sonic, and Intervideo NonCSS, and Elecard, which helps eliminate some of the "blurry" look that you get using the capture card? Basically, in your honest opinions kny3twalker and stanger89, which helps produce the most DVD like picture? If you think the difference is so negligable it isn't worth buying a codec I can just use the Intervideo NonCSS with the registry edit to help cut CPU usage (I didn't notice a quality increase but that's probably because I'm testing on a T41 without a dedicated video card).

I really appreciate the help you've both given me, as well as the good reads Again, I defer to the wisdom on this subject both of you have been kind enough to impart to me.

kny3twalker, have you tried the moonlight elecard decoder? How do you think it and sonic/nvdvd stack up against intervideo noncss when using vmr9? Which do you personally prefer? Also, do you use ffdshow? If it isn't necessary with one of the encoders because it does good enough of a job on its own (as stanger89 seems to think Sonic does) I'd be willing to pay up an extra $5 over one of the others to not have to tinker with all those settings in ffdshow which I have NO idea what they do

Thanks again!

[stanger89]

Air, if you're adventurous, give the alpha Dscaler 5 video decoder a try. I haven't yet tried in on my Sage box, but talk at AVS is that it's very close to FWMM in PQ.

Here's the link:
http://www.dscaler.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3440

and you'll need to add this to the "videoframe/additional_video_filters=" line in the sage.properties file:
Mpeg2 Video Decoder,Video In,Video Out

Yeah, I'm really quite fond of the Sonic decoders, they've always worked well for me. One other thing to consider is that adjusting the capture settings (see link in my sig) can do wonders for PQ, probably a lot more than just changing decoders.

Truthfully it's been a really long time since I've even installed the NonCSS decoders so I'm not sure I'm qualified to comment on how much better Sonic or FWMM are anymore.

[kny3twalker]

when using VMR9 NVDVD is the best
cause of the better color but it takes a good video card
I am seeming to get better luck doing VMR9 with version 2.55 than version 3
but I would still recommend a 9800 PRO for HDTV/monitor use or a 5200 or better when using an svideo output from your video card to a SDTV

intervideo either non css or winDVD intervideo do a horrible job with VMR9
they are much more blurry
overlay they look rather similair

but one thing use the DXVA/hardware acceleration option in the video decoder you choose
that enables hardware assisted deinterlacing and does a much better job than a decoder can do with something like ffdshow

since I see stats of your computer
I would just use overlay rendering
on my box
with my 9600 XT
I get stuttering every once in a while with nvDVD and Sonic using VMR9 with hardware acceleration/DXVA enabled
enough to where I do not like using it
you can turn off DXVA/hardware acceleration in Sonic and the stutters stop but the picture is much more blurry
NVDVD crashes when turning off hardware acceleration and using VMR9 rendering which Sage has said will be fixed in the next release

I never was very impressed with elecard decoders everytime I used them in the past
they do not support DXVA/hardware acceleration
and every dscaler plugin I tried to clear up the blurriness
well, the resolutes were not what I wanted
usually not enough difference from the plugins to make them comparable to sonic or nvDVD
or really poor deinterlacing

but you should try them yourself

we have both recommended sonic
if you are using computers speakers (5.1)
I would get the cineplayer surround (sonic) to get full analogue 5.1 sound when watching DVDs
otherwise just get the sonic DVD decoder pack

[Air]

VMR9 allows for the clear menus whereas overlay doesn't, correct?
What's the benefit of using VMR9 over Overlay and vice-versa?

I assume a 9700 mobility can support DXVA hardware acceleration. When you suggest enabling this I take it you mean the registry tweak since it doesn't allow any option but default in Sage.

I also wasn't very impressed with elecard

I have a 2.0 setup They're some powerful little sony sattelites that have decent output so I'm happy. I have a Subaru Impreza 2.5RS Coupe and I have to take down a mini-fridge and chair as well as all of my other "supplies" so I don't think a 5.1 setup is realistic I wish it were though

What causes you to get stutter, is it just that VMR9 is more demanding? I'd hope a 3.4 a64 could handle it.

So you seem to suggest Sonic and Overlay. I eagerly await your reply kny3twalker, my PC is arriving tomorrow !

[Air]

Oh, and let's not forget:

Thanks again for helping me out!

[stanger89]

Originally posted by Air
VMR9 allows for the clear menus whereas overlay doesn't, correct?
What's the benefit of using VMR9 over Overlay and vice-versa?

VMR9 enables the SEMI-transparent OSD (blue shaded), with overlay you're limited to opaque or fully transparent (no shading, just text and outlines).

I assume a 9700 mobility can support DXVA hardware acceleration. When you suggest enabling this I take it you mean the registry tweak since it doesn't allow any option but default in Sage.

Should. I personally think the DXVA settings in Sage should be removed since most decoders don't seem to support those adjustments. (not DXVA, just the way Sage sets it).

I also wasn't very impressed with elecard

I agree, I've never been overly impressed with the Elecard setup.

I have a 2.0 setup They're some powerful little sony sattelites that have decent output so I'm happy. I have a Subaru Impreza 2.5RS Coupe and I have to take down a mini-fridge and chair as well as all of my other "supplies" so I don't think a 5.1 setup is realistic I wish it were though

I don't know what the car or fridge have to do with anything?

What causes you to get stutter, is it just that VMR9 is more demanding? I'd hope a 3.4 a64 could handle it.

Studder is almost a subject in itself, it can be caused by insufficient system power (CPU or video card) to do VMR9, another problem is that frames are sometimes dropped to keep the audio and video in sync (search for reclock). But with a A64 and a good video card (Radeon 9600Pro, Geforce FX 5700Ultra or better) you should be fine.

So you seem to suggest Sonic and Overlay. I eagerly await your reply kny3twalker, my PC is arriving tomorrow !

Give the Dscaler decoder a try, I've been playing with it a little and it looks pretty good so far. I'm very interested to see where this decoder (and the postprocessor I've heard about) goes, since for as long as I can remember Dscaler has been the gold standard in live TV deinterlacing/processing on the PC, but it's only just now beginning to support MPEG. It may just be THE decoder to use for Sage, but that will probably be a while

[Air]

I downloaded Dscaler at work and will mess with it some friday. Is dscaler a post processor like ffdshow or is it a codec like Sonic? I assume decoder since that's what you said in your first sentence

Also, are you suggesting to leave the registry key for DXVA hardware set to 0? I'm getting the impression you think it shouldn't be activated.

Thank you very much once again.

P.S. - You try packing half a year's stuff into a coupe and you'll understand why a 5.1 setup seems like a gift from the gods

P.P.S. - It seems like the alpha has a lot of complaints in the forum. Have you used it much? I plan on messing with it anyway since it'll be a work pc I notice they also have a non Alpha dscaler, does that one support mpeg as well (and do a good job at it)?