Sony HDTV Set as a PC Monitor for Sage

[srothwell]

Ok.... Need some advice here, please.....

I have an ATI Radeon 9600 in my media server. I am convinced that ATI doesn't start with an S-Video signal and then convert it to Composite. I'm sure it's the other way around. On this card and a Radeon 7500, using the S-Video out, there is a TON of dot-crawl.

Of course, Dot crawl is only a part of composite encoding.

So, stuff doesn't look as sharp as it certainly can.

Using this method, my PC is set to 800x600 and my widescreen Sony KDP-51WS550 uses an S-Video input, which allows me to use the wonderful Wide-Zoom mode to stretch the picture, etc. etc.

So, now I hook up a DVI cable. Again, everything works great except one small problem: Since this is a TV set, there's a lot of overscan issues. For instance, I set the PC to 1920x1080, but I can't see the task bar or anyting else on any edges. This makes it kind of difficult to lanuch applications, etc.

Now, one of the modes you can set the screen to is 1240x980. This lets you see all the screen, but then there's the fact that it's not widescreen any more.

Also when the TV is on the DVI input, disables the ability to stretch the picture becuase it assumes it's HD and why would you want to stretch and HD picture (I guess).

So, what I'm asking is: Does anyone know how to set windows to use display parameters like 1850x980. That sounds like it would work well.

Or, if we can't do that, does anyone know a Windows hack (or registry entry) that would let me tell windows it's not allowed to do anything outside of a certain margin? That would also solve the problem of using 1920x1080 on a TV set.

Also, what about using a DVI to Component converter? If I'm coming out component, my dot crawl issue goes away and I'm not locked into a cetrain resolution.

Comments and suggestions are very welcome.

Thanks,

Stacy

[stanger89]

Originally posted by srothwell
Ok.... Need some advice here, please.....

I have an ATI Radeon 9600 in my media server. I am convinced that ATI doesn't start with an S-Video signal and then convert it to Composite. I'm sure it's the other way around. On this card and a Radeon 7500, using the S-Video out, there is a TON of dot-crawl.

Of course, Dot crawl is only a part of composite encoding.

So, stuff doesn't look as sharp as it certainly can.

That's because you're using s-video which is limited to 480i. On an HDTV you really need to use Component, VGA, or DVI.

Using this method, my PC is set to 800x600 and my widescreen Sony KDP-51WS550 uses an S-Video input, which allows me to use the wonderful Wide-Zoom mode to stretch the picture, etc. etc.

So, now I hook up a DVI cable. Again, everything works great except one small problem: Since this is a TV set, there's a lot of overscan issues. For instance, I set the PC to 1920x1080, but I can't see the task bar or anyting else on any edges. This makes it kind of difficult to lanuch applications, etc.

Now, one of the modes you can set the screen to is 1240x980. This lets you see all the screen, but then there's the fact that it's not widescreen any more.

You're going to want to try 1776x1000 for a resolution, if it's not available you should look getting powerstrip and check out Karnis' custom resolution guide on the AVS Forum.

Also when the TV is on the DVI input, disables the ability to stretch the picture becuase it assumes it's HD and why would you want to stretch and HD picture (I guess).

That's pretty standard on HDTVs, hi res inputs don't support the warped stretch modes.

So, what I'm asking is: Does anyone know how to set windows to use display parameters like 1850x980. That sounds like it would work well.

Powerstrip, and 1776x1000 would be a good place to start.

Or, if we can't do that, does anyone know a Windows hack (or registry entry) that would let me tell windows it's not allowed to do anything outside of a certain margin? That would also solve the problem of using 1920x1080 on a TV set.

Also, what about using a DVI to Component converter? If I'm coming out component, my dot crawl issue goes away and I'm not locked into a cetrain resolution.

Since you have DVI, I'd try that first, but the dongle as it's called isn't a bad option, and it's getting more flexible with the more recent Catalysts.

Comments and suggestions are very welcome.

Thanks,

Stacy

One more thing, I can think of two ways to do the non-linear stretch. The more recent ffdshow alpha builds include the "Warped Resize" option which can do a non-linear stretch, or you can load the Dscaler linear correction filter via ffdshow. I've tried the resize and it takes a lot of power but works, haven't tried the dscaler filter though.

[srothwell]

Thanks for the reply!

I've got a few more questions.....

1. Installed PowerStrip and did 1776x1000. Still a little overscanned, but I can live with it since I can't figure out how to add another resolution.

2. Everything is too bright. It's almost as if the PC's signal is overloading the TV. Everything white just blows the TV away. I did find level adjustments on PowerStrip, but if you're using overlay mode, it doesn't work for the SageTV stuff. If I switch Sage to WM9 (or whatever that mode is), then I get a little more flickering on fast cutting scenes (my guess becuase of the large resultion).

It seems I can't win.

Any advice?

Thanks,

Stacy

[stanger89]

You can adjust the overlay levels in the display properites -> Advanced -> Overlay.

Actually if you're using the dongle, you can go into Display Properties -> Advanced -> Displays, then click the HDTV one and you can adjust the overall brightness/contrast there too.

[srothwell]

I tried that. They adust nicely until the next time Sage plays something then they go back to default.

ATI Radeon 9600SE

Stacy

[srothwell]

Update:

The overlay settings are reset to default whenever a new show is played by Sage.

The current show will play just fine until you start another.

Any ideas?

[stanger89]

About the only other things to try are:
Changing the settings for the adapter (in DS -> Advanced -> Displays -> HDTV I think)
Changing the settings in DS -> Advanced -> Color
And adjusting your display, it may not be possible to fix if the colorspace conversion is done incorrectly.

Be careful when messing with color settings in too many places, it's quite easy to get things out of wack that way. Personaly I never mess with the settings in Windows/drivers, I always just calibrate my display.

Oh, and one more thing I thought of, you can try changing the capture color settings, if you haven't yet white may be being crushed on capture which would be exacerbated by any clipping done on playback. If you need more info see the link in my sig.

[srothwell]

Great minds think alike....

Stayed up until about 3am trying to tweak this thing (man is my wife waiting for me to finish playing with this thing!)

I completely agree with you about screwing with the TV set itself. The normal brightness and contrast can't fix what's going on. I really don't want to permaanatly mess up a $2500 TV.

So, I changed the color calibration settings on the input side. This solved the problem, except that it really didn't. I'm just cheating. If I rip a DVD then play it back, it's still hot as the middle of August.

Since I'm planning on getting a PVR-350, at this time I really don't care.

Now, can you please explain further about what you're talking about when you said adjust DS? Not to sound stupid but what is DS?

Stacy

[stanger89]

Originally posted by srothwell
Great minds think alike....

Stayed up until about 3am trying to tweak this thing (man is my wife waiting for me to finish playing with this thing!)

I completely agree with you about screwing with the TV set itself. The normal brightness and contrast can't fix what's going on. I really don't want to permaanatly mess up a $2500 TV.

I'm not sure how you'd mess up the TV by properly calibrating it to your source.

So, I changed the color calibration settings on the input side. This solved the problem, except that it really didn't. I'm just cheating. If I rip a DVD then play it back, it's still hot as the middle of August.

You lost me there
Maybe if you could give me a little more info on your setup. Also if you don't have it already, I'd really recommend you pick up a copy of Digital Video Essentials so you can calibrate your display properly.

Since I'm planning on getting a PVR-350, at this time I really don't care.

A 350 really won't do you much good on an HDTV, I really wouldn't recommend it, it's really limited (no DVD playback) and there's no good reason to feed an HDTV with an 480i signal. Just my opinion though

Now, can you please explain further about what you're talking about when you said adjust DS? Not to sound stupid but what is DS?

Actually should have been DP , sorry got tired of typing "Diplay Properties" so I just started abreviating it, and incorrectly too.

[srothwell]

Hi....

The TV has been setup via something akin to Video Essentials.

I think that the PC's feed is too bright. In other words, white, instead of being, say 100%, is coming in at about 120%. I would guess that's just the nature of a PC display versus a video display.

Could it also be the "legal" color thing. 255 units if white is legal on a PC, but everyone always says the meximum you should use for outputting to a tv or dvd is 235 units.

Anyway, I've tried setting the overlay settings in DP, and it works, until I load something else or change the channel or anything in Sage. Sage completely resets the Overlay settings back to default. If I try to lock them via the ATI driver, then Sage crashes when it trys to change channels.

I perfectly understand that the 250 will only give me 480i. But, as I look at it, TV is 480i and until Sage blesses us with HDTV, it'll have to do :-)

Any ideas about the overlay issue?

Stacy

[stanger89]

Originally posted by srothwell
Hi....

The TV has been setup via something akin to Video Essentials.

But even with that DVDs aren't right? Just curious but what are you using.

I think that the PC's feed is too bright. In other words, white, instead of being, say 100%, is coming in at about 120%. I would guess that's just the nature of a PC display versus a video display.

Could it also be the "legal" color thing. 255 units if white is legal on a PC, but everyone always says the meximum you should use for outputting to a tv or dvd is 235 units.

Yes and no, there's a huge thread on this at AVS if you're interested. But the jist of it is that according to BT.601 reference black is 16 and ref white is 235, but on a properly calibrated display you should be able to see above white (>235), and probably some <16 also. The image in the post linked below should help you set your PC and/or display so black and white aren't crushed.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...52#post4012352

If they aren't crushed in the picture then it's an overlay and/or colorspace conversion problem.

If they are crushed (shouldn't be with DVI connection), have you tried adjusting the color controls (not overlay) in Display Properites -> Advanced -> Color?

Anyway, I've tried setting the overlay settings in DP, and it works, until I load something else or change the channel or anything in Sage. Sage completely resets the Overlay settings back to default. If I try to lock them via the ATI driver, then Sage crashes when it trys to change channels.

Overlay's like that, I'm not sure what you can do. I always use VMR9 on my Radeon 9500, I'd give that a shot. Also make sure you have your drivers updates, I'm running Catalyst 4.7 right now.

I perfectly understand that the 250 will only give me 480i. But, as I look at it, TV is 480i and until Sage blesses us with HDTV, it'll have to do :-)

Thing is, even though TV is 480i, since you've got an HDTV it's has to be deinterlaced and scaled. You don't avoid that with the 350, it just get's done in the TV then. Like I said the 350 doesn't get you anything, and you could end up with a worse picture even (if your TV doesn't deinterlace/scale).

Any ideas about the overlay issue?

Stacy

Overlay, no, but what I would do is try and get DVDs looking good first. They're a known quantity, if something's wrong it has to be in the playback chain, where with capture video the problem could be with capture also.

Once you have DVDs correct, you can tweak the capture color settings to get the levels correct since they should be the same levels as those on DVDs.

Another option (which I use) is to use the Dscaler histogram filter in ffdshow to adjust the brightness contrast correctly.

[TunaBoo]

All ATI products have buggy drivers and poor PQ. There is a reason I stay away...

[stanger89]

Originally posted by TunaBoo
All ATI products have buggy drivers and poor PQ. There is a reason I stay away...

And why my next card will be an nVidia