HD Fury Lawsuit

[reggie14]

I suppose we all knew someday this would happen. Hopefully everyone hoping to use an HD Fury already has one. This could impact anyone hoping to use the new HD-PVR 60, which I understand is HDMI-only (although SHS seems to report the HD-PVR works with HDCP content).

Warner Bros. sues “HD Fury” over boxes that can copy 4k video

Originally Posted by Ars Technica

Stripping out [HDCP] is a brazen violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, according to lawyers for Warner Brothers and Digital Content Protection (DCP), the company that licenses HDCP. Warner and DCP filed a lawsuit (PDF) on December 31 against LegendSky, the owner of HD Fury. The plaintiffs' lawyers say LegendSky is "a business or an individual located in China."

[wayner]

I wonder if you will still be able to buy these in other countries, like China, or here in Canada.

Anyone know why the 4K version any different than the 1080p version from a DMCA perspective? Or if Warner Bros just never bothered to sue over the 1080p version since it was so easy to crack the encryption on BluRays?

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by wayner

I wonder if you will still be able to buy these in other countries, like China, or here in Canada.

I suspect a lawsuit in the US makes it very difficult for a company to do business in countries friendly to the US. I think treaty obligations might mean those countries could freeze assets. Or, at least, it could prevent any company that wants to remain on good terms with the US (and friendly countries) from supporting the business.

While that might sound like forcing the DMCA down everyone's throats, you don't exactly want a company doing the business equivalent of "fleeing the jurisdiction." Perhaps they could go on in certain other countries once they pay any damages in the US, but I highly doubt that will happen.

I suspect we'll see the end of HD Fury soon, but perhaps the same products will pop up under a new company.

Originally Posted by wayner

Anyone know why the 4K version any different than the 1080p version from a DMCA perspective? Or if Warner Bros just never bothered to sue over the 1080p version since it was so easy to crack the encryption on BluRays?

This is the big mystery to me. I never understood how the HD Fury worked.

But, the company always claimed that they had the necessary HDCP license, that they followed the licensing requirements, and that their products passed HDMI/HDCP compliance testing. They claimed to be using hardware and HDCP keys from Silicon Image (whose hardware presumably ended up in other products, too).

I suspect the HD Fury guys managed to find a loophole in the HDCP spec and license that made it difficult to pursue action on those grounds. I don't understand how Intel (and others) couldn't effectively find a way to prevent companies like Silicon Image from selling to them, but perhaps they could claim they didn't know who they were selling to.

Maybe Intel/Warner Brothers/etc. figured it wasn't worth the trouble to go after a company that doesn't have assets in the US. Instead they went after companies that were reselling the HD Fury in the US. For a while I thought it was moderately difficult to get an HD Fury here, but over time it got easier again.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by reggie14

I suspect a lawsuit in the US makes it very difficult for a company to do business in countries friendly to the US. I think treaty obligations might mean those countries could freeze assets. Or, at least, it could prevent any company that wants to remain on good terms with the US (and friendly countries) from supporting the business.

They ship straight from China (Hong Kong), and China isn't exactly friendly to the US.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by reggie14

I suspect a lawsuit in the US makes it very difficult for a company to do business in countries friendly to the US. I think treaty obligations might mean those countries could freeze assets. Or, at least, it could prevent any company that wants to remain on good terms with the US (and friendly countries) from supporting the business.

But this product is not necessarily illegal in other countries. Therefore whey would you be restricted from buying the product in a country where it isn't illegal to do HDCP stripping?

By the way, there have been other products that stripped HDCP, including HDMI splitters. I wonder if they still work that way. See this thread: http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58515

Although it likely won't work for 4K.

By the way, 4K is now here for cable TV. On January 23 my cable company, Rogers, will have a hockey game in 4K. And they will show every Toronto Blue Jays home game in 2016 in 4K. (Note that Rogers is the cable company and they also own channels such as Rogers Sportsnet and they own the baseball, hockey and basketball teams.) They have started to support 4K for customers in some areas - of course you do need an upgraded STB. I don't think 4K is available in my neigbourhood yet, and I don't have a 4K TV, but I should be able to get 4K by the end of the year.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stanger89

They ship straight from China (Hong Kong), and China isn't exactly friendly to the US.

It's not exactly hostile either, although they haven't been particularly interested in helping US enforce copyright law. Mostly I was referring to Europe. Does the company behind HD Fury use any US or European financial institutions? How long could they go on if Visa/Mastercard locked them out, along with other resellers? Usenet trackers have certainly had a rough time due to those problems.

Originally Posted by wayner

But this product is not necessarily illegal in other countries. Therefore whey would you be restricted from buying the product in a country where it isn't illegal to do HDCP stripping?

I didn't mean that they could directly block the sale. What I'm speculating is that foreign courts could freeze assets if the company doesn't pay damages in a US court. If Intel/WB could successfully go down that route (which is probably a rather slow process), then it could effectively take down the company (rather than blocking the sale of specific products).

Originally Posted by wayner

By the way, there have been other products that stripped HDCP, including HDMI splitters. I wonder if they still work that way. See this thread: http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58515

Yeah, this is another thing that's really interesting. HDCP strippers seem like the obvious things that the DCP would want to prevent. The fact that so many exist- apparently even from fairly reputable companies- makes me thing there's an intentional loophole in the license agreement, and the HD Fury folks managed to exploit it.

I'm not sure what's so significant about HD vs 4k. The main thing that comes to mind is that there's a very legitimate use for HDCPv1 strippers, given that not all devices with HDMI support HDCP. Is that really true about 4k HDMI ports, though? Or does almost every "legitimate" 4K device support HDCP 2.2?

[wayner]

4K Blu Ray discs are coming very soon. It will be interesting see how long it takes for it to be cracked - it didn't take too long for the original Blu Ray.

Once that is cracked then there really isn't as much need for HDCP stripping, except for recording TV since I don't image there will be an analog hole (aka component) from 4K devices.

And speaking of 4K - what would it take to upgrade SageTV to be able to play 4K files? An updated Media Player?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by wayner

Once that is cracked then there really isn't as much need for HDCP stripping, except for recording TV since I don't image there will be an analog hole (aka component) from 4K devices.

All "commercial" 4K services/sources I'm aware of require HDCP 2.2, and there are a "lot" of 4K displays that don't support that. For example my JVC RS4910 supports 4K (e-Shift, simulated). An HDFury will be required to watch UHD Blu-ray, Netflix, Vudu, etc on it.

And speaking of 4K - what would it take to upgrade SageTV to be able to play 4K files? An updated Media Player?

If you're talking the PC side, nothing really. LAV decoders support 4K video and you can use them in Sage.

It would be nice to get madVR support in SageTV, for a number of reasons, but it now supports mapping HDR for "correct" display on SDR displays.

[valnar]

I just saw this article today. I did't know they existed.

Can the HD Fury be used with Sage in any way? If so, I'd like to grab one ASAP. It doesn't need to be 4K for my use. I have the older HD-PVR 1212, but even though the picture looks almost as good sourced from component, I miss the subtitles.

[wayner]

Yes it could be used for capture devices that have HDMI inputs like the Collosus. But there are other options - see my link in post 2 or try googling.

[valnar]

I decided to buy that 4K HD Fury while I could. I guess I need to read up on input options. I've been using a HD-PVR to Cable-company-STB-tuner to my SagePC for ages. Never looked at anything else.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by valnar

I just saw this article today. I did't know they existed.

Can the HD Fury be used with Sage in any way? If so, I'd like to grab one ASAP. It doesn't need to be 4K for my use. I have the older HD-PVR 1212, but even though the picture looks almost as good sourced from component, I miss the subtitles.

I don't see how it would help you with subtitles. It just decrypts HDMI, which is the same as component, just digital.

[valnar]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I don't see how it would help you with subtitles. It just decrypts HDMI, which is the same as component, just digital.

Sorry, I meant closed-caption. The current HD-PVR doesn't get the CC stream when it's converted to component from my STB. If this can retain that information, I'll use it instead (with a Colossus? I'll have to read up on that in the forums).

[stanger89]

That's what I mean, I don't see how CC would be retained on HDMI but not Component. As far as I know, HDMI doesn't support transporting closed captioning other than embedded as part of the video, just like Component.

[valnar]

Originally Posted by stanger89

That's what I mean, I don't see how CC would be retained on HDMI but not Component. As far as I know, HDMI doesn't support transporting closed captioning other than embedded as part of the video, just like Component.

I assume because since it's converting digital to analog on component, it's jumbled during the generation loss. I'm not referring to leaving CC on all the time where it is part of the video coming across (of course that would work), but having the CC stream selectable like it was live TV. Since DTV CC is digital in a digital stream as opposed to analog cable-TV, it get wiped out during the transition. No 1's and 0's are retained in the same way.

[stanger89]

I know what you want, I'm telling you HDMI doesn't support it. Per the HDMI.org FAQ, CC is the responsibility of the cable/satellite box. If you want them, it's enabled there, and displayed as part of the video. HDMI does not support transmitting CC data on the side, to be recorded and optionally displayed later.

HDMI carries raw, uncompressed video, it does not carry a bitstream of video that can have embedded CC like recording for ATSC or QAM. With HDMI you get whatever the cable or satellite box is displaying, nothing more nothing less, only in digital form vs analog.

[valnar]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I know what you want, I'm telling you HDMI doesn't support it. Per the HDMI.org FAQ, CC is the responsibility of the cable/satellite box. If you want them, it's enabled there, and displayed as part of the video. HDMI does not support transmitting CC data on the side, to be recorded and optionally displayed later.

HDMI carries raw, uncompressed video, it does not carry a bitstream of video that can have embedded CC like recording for ATSC or QAM. With HDMI you get whatever the cable or satellite box is displaying, nothing more nothing less, only in digital form vs analog.

OK, I got it. Once you said ATSC/QAM≠HDMI (in this respect) it clicked. So a Colossus won't achieve what I want. I simply have to leave CC on my tuner and record it as such.

[stanger89]

Interesting, I just found this:
https://www.hdfury.com/12133/

HDFury say they've not been served the lawsuit/Cease And Desist.

Also it never "clicked" that the Integral doesn't remove HDCP it just converts it, which "supposedly" is allowed.

[TechBill]

Originally Posted by valnar

OK, I got it. Once you said ATSC/QAM≠HDMI (in this respect) it clicked. So a Colossus won't achieve what I want. I simply have to leave CC on my tuner and record it as such.

Correct, only way to get CC in a record on HD contents is to enable it on cable or sat box (STB) end. I know it mean that it burn into the recording file itself and it not something you can enable/disable like a subtitle when playback but I like it this way because I can play it back on any player and not have to worry if the player will support CC or not.

As for OTA (over the air) HDTV, SageTV already support CC on this providing that the OTA tuner you are using keep it intact. I use HDHomeRun tuners and SageTV is able to decode and display CC from it just fine.

However it may be difficult to find a player that would support CC if you want to play it back on other player beside SageTV.

Bill