After searching the forums, still have questions ...

[han0522]

I've found several threads with people with similar setups but, as always, no one with the exact one I have.

Alright, I've got an old computer I don't use (Athlon 1.33 t-bird, a7m266, ati 64mb ddr vivo). Now, like many, I'm trying to minimize price.

What I want is an htpc that I can use to: watch tv, record tv, basic tivo-like features, watch dvds, watch other video formats, listen to music (cd, mp3, etc.) and output to a 32" tv (no hd, plasma, etc. here!).

I've pretty much set on the PVR-250mce (seems like the best). So, if I'm not mistaken, that satisfies the tv, recording, and tivo-like requirements.

My main question is what video card would be best? Obviously I want good dvd playback but, since I don't plan on doing any gaming, I don't see why I need a 9600 or better. I've seen some recommend the fx5200 or the ati 9200. Obviously something with tv-out. But I'm still confused.

But then I see others talk about tv-out quality. What I don't want is to use this and, everytime I watch tv, think "this picture sucks, if only the tv were directly connected to the cable". (Oh, btw, just using standard cable service).

Somewhere (perhaps on another forum) someone suggested trying tv-out on a presently owned video card. I'm doing so now on my 9800 (watching master and commander) and everything's clear sailing as far as picture quality is concerned.

Anywho, I want to do things right the first time and not waste money on crappy hardware. It looks like SageTV is the way to go as far as software is concerned.

So, does anyone have any words of wisdom for me as far as video cards?

Oh, and also, sound. I have a receiver that I use now, but it is rather old and I'm wanting to commit her to the sea, so to speak. Can I use an audigy or its equivalent and some decent 5.1 computer speakers? I guess I ask because I see so many reviews/threads talking about outputting their audio to external receivers and I'm confused if this is optimal b/c people already have the hardware or if there is some distinct advantage in outputting the signal before going to the speaker.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

-Han0522

[stanger89]

Hey, always glad to see new (even potential) Sage users.

Originally posted by han0522
I've found several threads with people with similar setups but, as always, no one with the exact one I have.

Alright, I've got an old computer I don't use (Athlon 1.33 t-bird, a7m266, ati 64mb ddr vivo). Now, like many, I'm trying to minimize price.

What I want is an htpc that I can use to: watch tv, record tv, basic tivo-like features, watch dvds, watch other video formats, listen to music (cd, mp3, etc.) and output to a 32" tv (no hd, plasma, etc. here!).

I've pretty much set on the PVR-250mce (seems like the best). So, if I'm not mistaken, that satisfies the tv, recording, and tivo-like requirements.

My main question is what video card would be best? Obviously I want good dvd playback but, since I don't plan on doing any gaming, I don't see why I need a 9600 or better. I've seen some recommend the fx5200 or the ati 9200. Obviously something with tv-out. But I'm still confused.

The general idea is that you need a decent DX9 card to get the most out of VMR9 (which is required for the semi-transparent OSD/menus), that's why the Radeon 9600+ is recommended. I guess I fall into that camp too. However I've seen a number of people have success with much less so I'm not exactly sure what to say. I'm guessing the 9800 you list is for another system, if not I'd use that. Otherwise my advice would be to try your current VIVO (maybe play a DVD or two and see what you think).

But then I see others talk about tv-out quality. What I don't want is to use this and, everytime I watch tv, think "this picture sucks, if only the tv were directly connected to the cable". (Oh, btw, just using standard cable service).

Can't offer much help on the SDTV area, as I run an HDTV. Read the forum and you'll probably get a feel for peoples results. It seems to me that there are probably at least as many people (probably more) running video cards to SDTVs and happy with the results as not. It greatly depends on how critical you are.

Somewhere (perhaps on another forum) someone suggested trying tv-out on a presently owned video card. I'm doing so now on my 9800 (watching master and commander) and everything's clear sailing as far as picture quality is concerned.

Good advice.

Anywho, I want to do things right the first time and not waste money on crappy hardware. It looks like SageTV is the way to go as far as software is concerned.

So, does anyone have any words of wisdom for me as far as video cards?

Like I said, I'm in the camp that the best choice now is a midrange DX9 card, my personal pick is the GeforceFX 5700 or 5900, the 5900 is a great deal now that the 5950 and 6800 are out.

Oh, and also, sound. I have a receiver that I use now, but it is rather old and I'm wanting to commit her to the sea, so to speak. Can I use an audigy or its equivalent and some decent 5.1 computer speakers? I guess I ask because I see so many reviews/threads talking about outputting their audio to external receivers and I'm confused if this is optimal b/c people already have the hardware or if there is some distinct advantage in outputting the signal before going to the speaker.

This like everything else is a matter of how critical you are, and what your needs are, and your budget. Last time I looked for computer speakers, I decided I'd be better off going with full blow HT components. I'd go HT components, but make sure they're good HT components, the average Best Buy HTiB is probably no better (maybe worse) than good computer speakers, and generally too limited to be very useful.

I'd say, if your budget is under $500, go with good PC speakers, the Klipsch Promedia Ultra 5.1 would probably get my vote.

But if you can go HT components I would. The best value I know of right now is probably the Paradigm Cinema series. Pair them with a modest reciever like a the Pioneer D914 and a sub and you'd have one heck of a System. I'd go talk to some of your local HT shops, one near us priced out a system like that for about $1100. Quite a deal, I've got a pair of Cinema 70 and they sound like anything but small speakers.

Of course you could go all out:
VSX-59TXi
Maggies
PB2-Plus
Oh, but that's what I want

It's up to you, I guess my recommendation on speakers, is don't discount good HT components because you think they are too expensive. You can spend less on good HT components than an HTiB and have a much better system.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

-Han0522

Any time, if you have questions just ask.

[han0522]

Thanks for the reply!

So, if transparent menus and other features, although very nice, weren't a high priority, then a dx9 card isn't really needed?

It sounds like you are a SageTV supporter/user/fan. Is it user friendly?

I'm still doing "research" on remotes. Do you mind if I ask what others are using with SageTV?

As of now, my only experience with tv tuner cards is the ati ve tv tuner. The reason I don't use it is its picture quality but, more so, the sound quality. Hissing sounds, etc. Is this something I should expect with the pvr-250mce?

I've not thought about using the vivo card I have but it is an interesting idea.

Anyway, thx for the help/replies.

-Han0522

[Opus4]

The picture quality of the Hauppauge hardware encoders (250/350/pvr-usb2) is excellent, in my opinion. I can barely tell any difference between SageTV recordings & direct cable TV. I use an Xcard for hardware decoding, but I have a hard time recommending it to people since you do not get the UI displayed through it on the TV -- I use a monitor near the TV to see the UI & then simply watch what I select on the TV.

Regarding remotes: see the links in my sig lines for what can be done if you end up with a Hauppauge encoder that includes a remote. Also, check the LONG thread "What's the BEST remote for use with SageTV?" for opinions on quite a few remotes. You could use just about any remote with a usb-uirt receiver/transmitter either directly with SageTv or via Girder. (stanger89's sig lines has a link to info on using Girder with SageTV.)

- Andy

[stanger89]

Originally posted by han0522
Thanks for the reply!

So, if transparent menus and other features, although very nice, weren't a high priority, then a dx9 card isn't really needed?

It sounds like you are a SageTV supporter/user/fan. Is it user friendly?

Yup, I really like SageTV and find it very easy to use. Of course I also thought v1.4 was great and easy to use as well (lots of people found 1.4 unintuitive). But 2.0 is/was a major advance for Sage, I think most useability complaints are from people used to other PVRs (like Tivos) finding some of the differences.

I'm still doing "research" on remotes. Do you mind if I ask what others are using with SageTV?

Yes I mind, what my opinion's not good enough for you!

Just kidding, it's generally never a good idea to base your decisions solely on one person's recommendations.

As of now, my only experience with tv tuner cards is the ati ve tv tuner. The reason I don't use it is its picture quality but, more so, the sound quality. Hissing sounds, etc. Is this something I should expect with the pvr-250mce?

<shudder>ATI TV Wonder</shudder> I had one of those (mine wasn't the VE), the 250 is several orders of magnitude better than that. The PQ is better in every way, sharper, better colors, the software's better (even the Hauppauge software), and the HW encoder is something you'll love. You can record in the background w/o even noticing it (~0%CPU). Sound, I've never had any trouble with it.

I've not thought about using the vivo card I have but it is an interesting idea.

Just seems like a reasonable start, since you've already got it and don't want to spend too much money.

Anyway, thx for the help/replies.

-Han0522

[han0522]

Well, the ATI remote wonder or the firefly remote look good. Just can't bring myself to spend over $100 on a remote.

Thx, stanger89, for your reply on the tv wonder ve. I was worried that this was the "norm", if you see what I mean.

Now, for my next question: Picture-in-Picture. Does SageTV support this? If so, do I need to get a whole nother pvr-250 or can I setup SageTV to always use a certain tv tuner for the smaller picture and, therefore, get a slightly less expensive tuner (or even use my tv wonder ve).

Again, thx for the help opus, stanger, and Frey community.

-Han0522

[stanger89]

No, Sage doesn't support PIP, if it did you would need another card, and that would need to be a HW encoder also.

[han0522]

Well, I tried my setup out and, again, I've got some questions.

I compared picture quality to my tv using two different comps: one using the ati 64mb ddr vivo (the one I hope to use as an htpc) and one using an ati 9800 pro. I couldn't tell any difference in picture quality between the two.

My question is, is it safe to assume that the 9800 pro's video out picture quality on an sdtv will be nearly as good as I can get (and therefore I don't need to worry about upgrading my vid card)?

Second, I tried out my old tv wonder ve just to see what it looked like. For some reason ati's program wouldn't work but dscaler did (although I couldn't change the channel except if I changed it in ati's app). I thought the picture quality was good but could be alot better. Should I expect alot more from the pvr-250?

And finally, I tried channel 61 (Cheers was on) with the tv wonder ve and I saw these vertical bands that looked like the picture was distorted. These bands were repeated across the screen and separated by cleaner video. Is this the result of a bad tv tuner, bad drivers, or just a consequence of using pc tv tuners?

Thanks,

-Han0522

[mls]

Don't know about your other problems, but thought I'd toss in some comments about the video and audio.

I'm using an ATI All-in-Wonder 9000 (don't use it for for capture, really bad) feeding S-video out to a 20" TV for SageTV while also feeding the Windows desktop out the other side to a 19" monitor.

I"ve heard the ATI 9200's and/or 9600's have better TV output, but I can't complain about the 9000 for "standard" TV either.

I also have an Audigy 2 ZS for the sound set up for use with Creative/Soundworks 4.1 speakers. Since most TV only has Dolby Stereo (or Surround) the Audigy seems to work out quite nicely.

Of course, if you wanted 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 from DVD's then you might want to use the digital SP/DIF out to a seperate audio decoder (although the Audigy could do it analog if you aren't that picky).

Can't say I have a need for all the extra surround stuff. I'm quite happy with the way I've got it set up now, but others may want/need more.

[kny3twalker]

the 9800 PRO
is only important if you are planning to use VMR9 video rendering

[nethawk]

The program does not support PIP but you can have Sage client running as well as SageServer. SageServer is the regular SageTV application and the client, is well the SageTV Client. You can even have multiple instances of the client limiting your live feeds to the number of capture cards (I do 2 right now and should be doing a third by next week, people have had up to 8 at once if your system can handle it anyway.) So that's the lowdown on PIP.

[stanger89]

Originally posted by han0522
Well, I tried my setup out and, again, I've got some questions.

I compared picture quality to my tv using two different comps: one using the ati 64mb ddr vivo (the one I hope to use as an htpc) and one using an ati 9800 pro. I couldn't tell any difference in picture quality between the two.

My question is, is it safe to assume that the 9800 pro's video out picture quality on an sdtv will be nearly as good as I can get (and therefore I don't need to worry about upgrading my vid card)?

The 9800 probably has one of the better TV outs, but the real question you should be asking yourself is "Is there something wrong with the picture?" There's almost always somthing better, you just need to find what satisfies you.

Second, I tried out my old tv wonder ve just to see what it looked like. For some reason ati's program wouldn't work but dscaler did (although I couldn't change the channel except if I changed it in ati's app). I thought the picture quality was good but could be alot better. Should I expect alot more from the pvr-250?

Here's my experience with TV cards (which should answer your question eventually). I had a TV Wonder once, at that time it was cool just to watch TV on your PC, but it was no match for live, strait to the TV, TV, and recordings sucked. Then I heard about the WinTV PVR PCI (this was before the 250) that had a hardware MPEG encoder and I jumped on it. It was basically the same card as the TVW (BT878 TV chip) but with the HW encoder, recordings were many times better. Anyway, eventually I got a PVR 250, and it was a major improvement over the PCI in every way. The 250 uses a better Philips TV chip, has a more sensitive tuner, everything was just better. On my bad school cable the 250 produced a much better picture than my TV.

Basically:
PVR 250 >> PVR PCI >> TV Wonder.

And finally, I tried channel 61 (Cheers was on) with the tv wonder ve and I saw these vertical bands that looked like the picture was distorted. These bands were repeated across the screen and separated by cleaner video. Is this the result of a bad tv tuner, bad drivers, or just a consequence of using pc tv tuners?

Thanks,

-Han0522

I've seen that too on occasion , but only on rather poor cable service. If that's the case you'll probably need to complain to your cable company, but a better tuner (like on the 250) may make a difference.

I've attached a screenshot of what I'm thinking of.

[han0522]

This is what I mean when I say vertical lines or bands:







However, some channels come in fine:



Although they look "fuzzy" or "soft" on the screen. Not sure if that's a 64mb ddr vivo thing, a pc-tv-out thing, or if I need to do some tweaking.

Anyway, I've decided on most of the components now. Really, all I'm trying to decide on is whether I should order a fx5200 while I'm at it.

-Han0522

[stanger89]

That looks like it's a probelm with your cable.

[han0522]

Thx for the quick response.

Would this be the case even if these same channels on my tv (when the cable is directly connected to the tv) show up fine?

-Han0522

[stanger89]

Really, well if that's the case then maybe your TWVE is bad. I've never seen anything like that (except for bad cable, and then it was bad on the TV too).

I guess the answer to your question is no, you should not expect a 250 to look like that. In my experience the 250's recordings are very close to what you see on the TV.

[han0522]

Cool. Thx stanger!

-Han0522