HEVC video codec and keeping SageTV alive

[cat6man]

Hi,

I'm still lurking around occasionally but my SageTV system is happily meeting all my family needs with two silicon dust tuners, one for unencrypted network channels and one with a cable card and SageDCT for the rest, giving me 5 channel of recording which meets all my needs.

I was watching Tekzilla (yea podcast recorder!) the other day and their CES coverage included discussion of the new HEVC format for video, which will use superior encryption algorithms and a lot more horsepower to permit 4k video to be sent in the bandwidth of today's 1080p. Knowing the cableco's the way we do, we can also assume that they will use the same technology down the road to further compress 1080p and 720p to get more channels squeezed into their existing distribution systems. I expect that this is a way down the road though for the cableco so I'm not concerned about that for a few more years.

However, the code is open sourced (available now) and the spokesman for the organization that developed the new video codec said he expected it to be in many devices this coming year or next (e.g. Roku and other streamer boxes). Additionally, PC software and codecs should be available even sooner (perhaps even now, I haven't been checking).

Obviously, the HD300 will not be able to handle this natively. Do we have plugins and capabilities to be able to have SageTV transcode the new format in the future? While cableco and TV are not likely to impact us soon, I expect that it could become popular for other download or torrent media (legal only of course).

Just wondering what folks thought about this and what approaches/solutions might be possible. If we can do SageDCT we can probably do damn near anything but this is not my area of expertise.

Cheers and a good new year to all things still SageTV.

[Fuzzy]

with the introduction of SDV, cableco's aren't nearly as pressed for bandwidth as you might think. Think about it, they haven't even made pressures to switch to H.264.

As for the HD300, there is no capability to selectively transcode a stream. It's something we asked about back at the HD100 level, but it just never happened (the reason back then was to handle the DTS issues). Clients shouldn't have a problem with any new codec, as long as it's directshow compatible.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by cat6man

I was watching Tekzilla (yea podcast recorder!) the other day and their CES coverage included discussion of the new HEVC format for video, which will use superior encryption algorithms and a lot more horsepower to permit 4k video to be sent in the bandwidth of today's 1080p. Knowing the cableco's the way we do, we can also assume that they will use the same technology down the road to further compress 1080p and 720p to get more channels squeezed into their existing distribution systems. I expect that this is a way down the road though for the cableco so I'm not concerned about that for a few more years.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, most cable companies haven't even switched to AVC (H.264) yet, let alone HEVC (H.265), they're still using MPEG-2. They don't want to replace all their hardware.

[wayner]

It really doesn't matter what codec the cable cos are using unless you are getting a raw stream from them with something like a CableCard tuner, which isn't really supported by Sage except using SageDCT. Even if they went to HEVC/H.265 boxes tomorrow we would still be ok, assuming that they had component outputs to plug into an HD-PVR or HDMI (assuming that you can strip the HDCP) into a Colossus.

But speaking of codecs, would you be able to plug another codec into the playback capabilities of Sage so that you could play files using other codecs on a PC running Sage?

[cat6man]

Originally Posted by wayner

But speaking of codecs, would you be able to plug another codec into the playback capabilities of Sage so that you could play files using other codecs on a PC running Sage?

that is what I was hoping would be possible, not for cableco and but for torrent downloads.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by cat6man

that is what I was hoping would be possible, not for cableco and but for torrent downloads.

Sage, being a directshow player, should be able to handle anything you have the source and decoder filters for. That is the benefit of directshow. The problems arise when programs try to force certain things in the graph creation (like sage's problems with VC-1 in .ts files). Sage forces their own demux into the mix, which has a bug in it that screws up VC-1 playback. Had they just left it alone, and let directshow handle it completely, there's be very few problems with any format.

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by wayner

It really doesn't matter what codec the cable cos are using unless you are getting a raw stream from them with something like a CableCard tuner, which isn't really supported by Sage except using SageDCT. Even if they went to HEVC/H.265 boxes tomorrow we would still be ok, assuming that they had component outputs to plug into an HD-PVR or HDMI (assuming that you can strip the HDCP) into a Colossus.

This is true, but I don't think component video supports anything higher than 1080p30 / 1080i60. HDMI 1.4 can support 2160p24, but you need HDMI 2.0 to handle higher framerates like 2160p60. In any case, the current Hauppauge products are limited to 1080p30 / 1080i60.

So, this would rely on your cable box down-converting to 1080i or 1080p. Which means you aren't going to see the benefit of 4K, unless you use a newer capture device that supports capture of 4K.

The other possibility would be to capture a 4K stream directly. There is not currently a broadcast standard for OTA 4K, but if they were to update the ATSC standard and TV stations started broadcasting in 4K, presumably a product like the HDHomerun could be upgraded to capture the streams (or more likely, a new version would be released). And of course, a cable card tuner like the HDHR Prime could probably handle the capture.

One other big problem with 4K that doesn't seem to be getting a lot of attention is playback. H.265 (HEVC) sounds great - similar quality video can be stored in about half the space compared with H.264, reducing storage and bandwith requirements. But while it is 2x as efficient, they say it requires about 10x the processing power to decode it. Since there are currently no hardware decoders available, you need to use software decoding. Right now it requires a desktop-class quad-core core i7 to decode a 4K movie (I think I read it takes about 80% CPU utilization). This means older less-powerful devices won't be able to handle playback.

I would expect that later this year or next we will start seeing video cards with hardware-accelerated decoding for h.265 (and/or possibly other next-gen codecs like VP9). Hardware decoding will also probably start showing up in mobile devices, and I would think smart TV's, and devices like Roku and BluRay players over the next year or two. Until then, it's probably not worth worrying too much about how it might affect Sage.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Tiki

Since there are currently no hardware decoders available, you need to use software decoding. Right now it requires a desktop-class quad-core core i7 to decode a 4K movie (I think I read it takes about 80% CPU utilization). This means older less-powerful devices won't be able to handle playback.

Not that it helps, but most of the new 4K TVs announced at CES include support for H.265 for Netflix/Amazon/etc.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Not that it helps, but most of the new 4K TVs announced at CES include support for H.265 for Netflix/Amazon/etc.

So how do these TVs do the decoding? Do they have an i7 class CPU to handle this? And if you have a video card and monitor that can handle 4K, in addition to the i7 CPU, will a PC be able to display the Netflix 4K streams?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by wayner

So how do these TVs do the decoding? Do they have an i7 class CPU to handle this?

I imagine it's built into the SOC, but I didn't see any details given, just Samsung and LG both announcing support for UHD streaming from Netflix and others for this year on their UHD TVs.

And if you have a video card and monitor that can handle 4K, in addition to the i7 CPU, will a PC be able to display the Netflix 4K streams?

I wouldn't be surprised if you can't, they kept 1080p to only CE devices for a long time.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I imagine it's built into the SOC,

Didn't Tiki say that there currently aren't any hardware encoders available for H.265/HEVC?

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by wayner

Didn't Tiki say that there currently aren't any hardware encoders available for H.265/HEVC?

Correct but this is DECODING not ENCODING.

[wayner]

Sorry he said decoders - my bad as I should have said decoders.

Originally Posted by Tiki

Since there are currently no hardware decoders available, you need to use software decoding.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by wayner

Sorry he said decoders - my bad as I should have said decoders.

I read your question wrong too. He said (or implied to me anyway) there were no hardware assisted GPUs for a PC. But the SOC chips in TV must already have the decoding capabilities for the manufacturers to be providing TVs already. There definitely are no encoders like HD-PVR capable recorders yet for a PC.

[MattHelm]

My understand (This based on some early reading I did on the spec, and may not be current!!!) of the new encoding is that current H.264 hardware decoders can handle most of the H.265 decoding.

For an example, lets say during 1080p playback with a newer video card, you use 10% CPU and the rest is done by the card. Once new drivers are written, a H265 decode on the same system would be about 20% or 30% CPU, and a slightly lower GPU usage. (this is for the same picture, 1080p at about the same quality)

The above assumes a computer system, not a SOC. Most, if not all, SOC would not be able to handle a new codec, unless it's FPGA based, and even then might not make it, as you don't normally use better FPGAs than you have to.

BTW, the new TVs might be FPGA based, vs. SOC, as the spec is new enough they might want to be able to update it. It would be a large cost adder to the TV, but at the price most are advertising, not that much. They are also now selling some SOC chips with a FPGA subsection.

Also, from what I know of PC video cards, your biggest issue is going to be keeping up the frame rate at 4K, not decoding the data.

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by wayner

Didn't Tiki say that there currently aren't any hardware encoders available for H.265/HEVC?

I meant that there aren't any current products that include hardware decoding of h.265. I'm sure there are chips in development that will support hardware decoding (there are probably already some chips that can be purchased now). I'm sure you will be able to get them eventually but you can't go out and buy an iPad or a Roku or a bluray player or a laptop or an add-on graphics card that has that feature today.

But it makes sense that as the new 4K TVs start rolling out, they will want to have a way to play back at least some 4K content. Since Netflix already announced that they plan to start offering streaming of 4K content, it would make sense to include some sort of hardware accelerated playback inside 4K TVs that have native Netflix playback built in. I don't think the cheap-o sub $1000 4K TVs have any smart tv features like Netflix built in, but the more expensive name-brands probably do.

[valnar]

I was going to post a new topic on HEVC, but this will work.

My SageTV setup is humming along fine. Nothing has been able to break it yet as I can use the Hauppauge HD PVR to get around DRM restrictions. I use my HD300 extenders daily.

It's funny...it won't be the cable companies that force me to retire my Sage system eventually, it'll be the HD300's incompatibility with HEVC/H.265. Fortunately we may be a few years off on that, but even on external rips, I have to insure that I only use x264 and forgo anything newer. Without a solid HD300 replacement, it'll be hard to ignore the newer hardware devices forever.

Maybe our illustrious coders will come up with something comparible before that happens??

[stuckless]

Originally Posted by valnar

I was going to post a new topic on HEVC, but this will work.

My SageTV setup is humming along fine. Nothing has been able to break it yet as I can use the Hauppauge HD PVR to get around DRM restrictions. I use my HD300 extenders daily.

It's funny...it won't be the cable companies that force me to retire my Sage system eventually, it'll be the HD300's incompatibility with HEVC/H.265. Fortunately we may be a few years off on that, but even on external rips, I have to insure that I only use x264 and forgo anything newer. Without a solid HD300 replacement, it'll be hard to ignore the newer hardware devices forever.

Maybe our illustrious coders will come up with something comparible before that happens??

The Android Miniclient has hardware decoding support for HEVC (provided the device supports it...and I think many devices do, including my phone).

[valnar]

Originally Posted by stuckless

The Android Miniclient has hardware decoding support for HEVC (provided the device supports it...and I think many devices do, including my phone).

Does it support subtitles/CC ?

[stuckless]

Originally Posted by valnar

Does it support subtitles/CC ?

I don't know. If it doesn't, I'm hopeful it's something that can be added. I know there are a few people on the forum that will require it.