Convince me to build an HTPC, or what's the ultimate HTPC hardware?

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Do you have ffdshow set to output 7.1 (3/2/2 + LFE) as well? if so, then it will always be outputting 7.1 to windows, regardless of the incoming format. Windows would only come into play in determining the channel arrangement if ffdshow is set to 'same as input'. If you DO have ffdshow set correctly (3/2/2 + LFE) and your mapping is incorrect, it would be a problem in ffdshow, and can be corrected by creating a separate auto-profile for 5.1, and mapping the channels appropriately in the mixer.

EDIT: just did some looking, and it looks like both libavcodec AND libdts decode 5.1 audio to F/C/R/LB/LR/LFE, so they are mapping correctly to the back speakers in the 7.1 setup.. that said, it CAN be manipulated in ffdshow to map however you want (you could actually send it to EACH of the rear speakers if you want). I use separate presets for Mono, Stereo, 5.1, and 7.1 sources, set to auto-load the presets based on channel count (1, 2, 6, 8, respectively).

for Mono sources, I have it set to send the center channel (which is where it decodes mono to) 0.5 to left, right, and center, each.
for Stereo sources, I use the ProLogic decoder, and then map 1:1 for all channels
for 5.1, I just map 1:1
for 7.1 sources, I map the surround AND rear channels at 1:1 to the surround speakers.

That's how mine is set up. It actually isn't a ffdshow issue (as far as I can tell). It seems to be that either the windows mixer, or the crappy realtek driver does it. I remember reading something about it. I'll try to find the article.

EDIT: Found it. http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/w...1-930609ca5760

[Fuzzy]

Yes, the windows mixer ALSO has this problem (if you send 5.1 to the windows mixer, and the mixer is set to 7.1 output, it will map the surround channels to the back outputs). However, if you have ffdshow set to 3/2/2 + lfe (7.1), this does not apply, because ffdshow will always be passing 7.1 to the windows mixer, regardless of source type. In ffdshow, if you enable the volume plugin, and check the show volume levels, you will see that the ffdshow maps the output of the decoder's surround channels to the BackL and BackR channels, and leaves the SideL and SideR empty.

[stanger89]

So here's a question, how do you get DLP IIx on the PC? Or is it possible to always send the native/"source" channels over HDMI, other than bitstreaming?

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by stanger89

So here's a question, how do you get DLP IIx on the PC? Or is it possible to always send the native/"source" channels over HDMI, other than bitstreaming?

It isn't DLP IIx, but I just use ffdshow to map the surround channels to the back in 5.1 situations. It works well, but isn't "true" DLP IIx. Other than that I think the Arcsoft HD Audio decoder will upmix to 7.1.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Yes, the windows mixer ALSO has this problem (if you send 5.1 to the windows mixer, and the mixer is set to 7.1 output, it will map the surround channels to the back outputs). However, if you have ffdshow set to 3/2/2 + lfe (7.1), this does not apply, because ffdshow will always be passing 7.1 to the windows mixer, regardless of source type. In ffdshow, if you enable the volume plugin, and check the show volume levels, you will see that the ffdshow maps the output of the decoder's surround channels to the BackL and BackR channels, and leaves the SideL and SideR empty.

Interesting, I'll have to recheck and see if mine is functioning correctly and I just didn't know it.

[panteragstk]

I got Reclock and the LAV CUVID video decoder working yesterday and I wish I would have been able to use this combination long ago. It runs great on my old 8800gt and accelerates mpeg2, h.264, and vc-1. That gpu doesn't even support vc-1 acceleration. Pretty cool. Reclock was easy to set up and I seems to have improved my video playback. The only thing is that I have to set up ffdshow in an undesirable way so 5.1 tracks' surround channels play out of the appropriate speakers. I have to set the back to duplicate out the side so I don't get surround out of the back and no audio out of the side. Fuzzy had said that the ffdhshow mixer if set to 3/2/2 +lfe would send 7.1 to the mixer and the channels would play correctly. It doesn't. Even in WASAPI exclusive mode it doesn't work. I think it is my sound driver because when the windows mixer is bypassed (that is what wasapi does right?) it plays back the same way. I think I may be doing something wrong, but what could it be?

[Fuzzy]

No, I didn't say setting it to 322 would fix the surround issue, I said that if set that way, it eliminated windows as the cause of the problem. Ffdshow ALSO sends the surround to the side speakers.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

No, I didn't say setting it to 322 would fix the surround issue, I said that if set that way, it eliminated windows as the cause of the problem. Ffdshow ALSO sends the surround to the side speakers.

I got it now. 7.1 tracks playback correctly. It isn't windows. I'm finding quite a few people with the same issue with the same realtek 889 audio chipset. For some reason if your speaker are set in a 7.1 configuration the surround (side) will play out of the back and the side speakers will have no sound. I'm going to do some more research. This is dumb. I don't like having to make ffdshow remap channels. I just need to get a new receiver so I don't have this problem.

[Fuzzy]

It has nothing to do with the chipset either. It is the way they designed ffdshow. It was originally written for 5.1 channels, max, so when they added the 7.1, the side channels became the next two channels. So, when it decides a 5.1, it does it as it always had, and send it to the 'rear' speakers. This is the same thing windows does when playing back 5.1. It isn't really a 'bug', as much as a design choice. It can be overcome by spending about 10 minutes in the ffdshow audio screen.

[stanger89]

Except that's not how 5.1 was ever supposed to work. Despite traditionally being called "rear" speakers, the surrounds in 5.1 have always been "side" speakers in reality, meant to be 90-110 degrees from front (ie just to the side and maybe slightly behind).

The "new" speakers in a 7.1 setup are actually "surround back" they are meant to be farther back, 135-150 degrees from front.

7.1 added rear speakers, it didn't move where any of the original 5.1 speakers were located.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

It has nothing to do with the chipset either. It is the way they designed ffdshow. It was originally written for 5.1 channels, max, so when they added the 7.1, the side channels became the next two channels. So, when it decides a 5.1, it does it as it always had, and send it to the 'rear' speakers. This is the same thing windows does when playing back 5.1. It isn't really a 'bug', as much as a design choice. It can be overcome by spending about 10 minutes in the ffdshow audio screen.

It isn't just ffdshow. Any audio decoder incorrectly outputs to the back (or rear) speakers instead of the side (surround) speakers. I've been reading about it and from what I can tell I have to have something set up wrong. Everyone with my audio chip complains that when using a 5.1 only speaker setup the have to use the side outputs other than rear or it doesn't work. Which makes sense as a 5.1 setup has no rear (or back) channel. Mine works the opposite way, if I set the output to 5.1 all the channels are correct no matter what decoder I use. As soon as I change it to 7.1 the output that should go to the side (and does if the speakers are set to 5.1) go to the back. That doesn't make sense. What is even more strange is the 7.1 tracks I have don't have any issues with any decoder either. The speaker identifier in the windows mixer and the realtek one work the way they are supposed to and correctly identify all speakers. From what I've read on microsoft's site it seems to be the way the audio is encoded (or the way it is presented to the driver, I guess) where there are actually two 5.1 setups that have the surround effects mapped either to the back or alternately the side channel. If you have speakers set to 5.1 you won't notice, but in 7.1 you have the issue I do. I have corrected the problem using ffdshow, but I don't want to have to. I just want the channels to be mapped the way they should be. It isn't an issue with a/v receivers.

I'm going to mess with it when I get home. This is really annoying.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Except that's not how 5.1 was ever supposed to work. Despite traditionally being called "rear" speakers, the surrounds in 5.1 have always been "side" speakers in reality, meant to be 90-110 degrees from front (ie just to the side and maybe slightly behind).

The "new" speakers in a 7.1 setup are actually "surround back" they are meant to be farther back, 135-150 degrees from front.

7.1 added rear speakers, it didn't move where any of the original 5.1 speakers were located.

And that is the problem. Why would it send the surround channel that is supposed to come out the side speakers to the back? That doesn't make sense.

[panteragstk]

I guess I'm not the only one.

I think I've got a handle on how to fix it. Hey fuzzy, would you mind showing me how you have reclock and ffdshow (or whatever audio decoder you use) configured?

[Fuzzy]

I never said ffdshow was the only one that had the problem. just about all PC based decoders have this problem. ffdshow is just the only one that really provides a decent way to overcome the problem. My comment about it not being a problem with windows was in response to your specific situation, where you were using ffdshow set to 7.1, so it was always sending 7.1 to windows, taking that particular part of it out of the picture. I never said windows didn't ALSO behave this way when you DO send it 5.1 with a 7.1 configuration.

Keep in mind, that it wasn't always as cut and dry as to what should be mapped where. Originally, when 5.1 was first spec'd out, the surround speakers could be placed anywhere from 100-135° from center. It was only after spec'ing out 7.1 systems, that they redefined the surround side to 90-110°, and surround rear to 135°-150°. Looking at it this way, it could be arbitrary where the surround channels from a 5.1 should be mapped to (to me, I'd rather map them to BOTH surround speakers, with reduced levels to compensate).

All that said, i can't really show you how I have it set up, as I don't HAVE a 7.1 speaker system.

[stanger89]

You know, you guys (among other things) are doing a pretty good job of convincing me I still don't want a PC doing any playback in my system.

[IVB]

Originally Posted by stanger89

You know, you guys (among other things) are doing a pretty good job of convincing me I still don't want a PC doing any playback in my system.

yeah, i've been lurking here "just-in-case", and am coming to the same conclusion. Alas if I had only bought the HD300 in April like I meant to.

[Fuzzy]

depends on what you have/use... Since I don't have 7.1 speakers, this is all a non-issue for me, and it 'just works'. Even if you DO have 7.1 speakers, the 'worst' that happens if you don't tweak this at all, is that 5.1 surround will come out the rear speakers of your 7.1 setup, instead of the side speakers...

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by IVB

yeah, i've been lurking here "just-in-case", and am coming to the same conclusion. Alas if I had only bought the HD300 in April like I meant to.

Yeah, I keep going back and forth on if I actually want to try and snag one or two off Ebay. That and whether or not I want to switch to something else or not too. There's just something about using a "dead" product that I don't like, that seems unsettling and that I should move. But then the more I look the more I realize pretty much everything else sucks.

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

depends on what you have/use... Since I don't have 7.1 speakers, this is all a non-issue for me, and it 'just works'. Even if you DO have 7.1 speakers, the 'worst' that happens if you don't tweak this at all, is that 5.1 surround will come out the rear speakers of your 7.1 setup, instead of the side speakers...

It's not this issue specifically, but regarding audio:
I have a 7.1 setup, so it would affect me. I don't want 5.1 to be just 5.1, I want it to be it to be matrix expanded to 7.1, ie Dolby Pro Logix IIx, not a simple duplication (ffdshow). I also want stereo to be matrixed to 7.1 ala DPL IIx. I want that all to happen automatically, and actually if/when I go HDMI for my pre pro, I want it to be passed off to my pre pro.

This thread has reminded me how much of a disaster that all is on the PC. If I remember/understand correctly, for HDMI, you must pick a single audio configuration in Windows (if you have a choice and your EDID doesn't force it on you), so you basically have to pick 7.1, and if you don't have software doing the DPL IIx expansion for you, you get 2-5 blank channels sent to the pre-pro where it can no longer be expanded because it's a "7.1" signal.

Maybe it works better with bitstreaming? But if you bitstream you run into the A/V sync/frame dropping issue because you can't use reclock effectively.

And then there's the whole issue of native resolution/frequency switching and that fact that the former is actually impossible and the later is quite troublesome.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Yeah, I keep going back and forth on if I actually want to try and snag one or two off Ebay. That and whether or not I want to switch to something else or not too. There's just something about using a "dead" product that I don't like, that seems unsettling and that I should move. But then the more I look the more I realize pretty much everything else sucks.



It's not this issue specifically, but regarding audio:
I have a 7.1 setup, so it would affect me. I don't want 5.1 to be just 5.1, I want it to be it to be matrix expanded to 7.1, ie Dolby Pro Logix IIx, not a simple duplication (ffdshow). I also want stereo to be matrixed to 7.1 ala DPL IIx. I want that all to happen automatically, and actually if/when I go HDMI for my pre pro, I want it to be passed off to my pre pro.

This thread has reminded me how much of a disaster that all is on the PC. If I remember/understand correctly, for HDMI, you must pick a single audio configuration in Windows (if you have a choice and your EDID doesn't force it on you), so you basically have to pick 7.1, and if you don't have software doing the DPL IIx expansion for you, you get 2-5 blank channels sent to the pre-pro where it can no longer be expanded because it's a "7.1" signal.

Maybe it works better with bitstreaming? But if you bitstream you run into the A/V sync/frame dropping issue because you can't use reclock effectively.

And then there's the whole issue of native resolution/frequency switching and that fact that the former is actually impossible and the later is quite troublesome.

I'm not positive (and not at home right now to check) but I think ReClock has the capability to change the window speaker setup to match what is sent to it, So that it outputs the proper speaker setup to your AVR, and let IT do the speaker expansion for you. In this case, you'd set ffdshow to output the 'same as input', and then ReClock would cause windows to match that speaker arrangement - basically leaving everything in tact all the way to the receiver. (of course, if you use bitstream output, you'd get that already).

[stanger89]

Looks like it does. And it looks like Slysoft "took over" reclock. Why is it that they seem to be about the only ones making HTPC software that does what people actually want