Migration to WMC7 - Opinions, tips, tricks, shortfalls

[svemuri]

I've been running Sage for about 5 years. I still think Sage is the best PVR/Media Center. The single most import thing about Sage for me is the availability of inexpensive and fully functional extenders. Unfortunately, it looks like they are going to be unavailable for now (may be GoogleTV at some point, but its just a dream for now). I also want support for CableCard (Ceton/HDHR prime), but it probably will not happen either.

I know that there is another thread discussing alternatives. But for some one that wants a house full of extenders and wants CableCard support (yes I hate DRM too), it appears that WMC7 and Xbox360 is the only alternative. So this thread is specifically about migration to WMC7 and its extenders (i.e. Xbox360 for now).

What do we lose by migrating to WMC7+Xbox360?

What do we gain?

Where do we begin?

Any tips or tricks?

What happened to thegreenbutton.com?

Let the discussion begin.

I am slowly realizing how much of my TV/media interaction is dependent on Sage for so long. It will be a difficult adjustment to go somewhere else. I guess all good things must come to an end. Good luck to Sage guys.

Sarat

------------------------------------------------------------
Update
I will try try keep this post updated with the information I learn from this thread, other threads in Sage forums, other forums etc.

Gain
+ CableCard/Ceton/HDHR-Prime Native Support (with DRM)
+ Arguably nicer UI
+ $150 Extender that you can still buy (Xbox360-4GB, $199 usually with $50 gift card)
+ You can play games on the Extender

Loss
- DRM
- Extender (XBox360) is big, bulky, noisy and hot.
- No PC Client. WMC7 PCs can "share" recordings though.
- All the nice customizations/pugins of Sage.
- Inferior codec support.
- Can't play DVD/BD folders on Extender
- Extender can't handle high bit rate BluRay
- Only one guide data lineup (need to confirm)
- Client/Server model not as good.

Information
* Max 4 tuners per type - Analog, OTA, ClearQAM, CableCard - so 16 in total.
* HD-PVR/Colossus is now supported by Hauppauge
* Speculation that things may change with XBox360 and how it interacts with WMC7. Some announcement E3 regarding TV and XBox. Fall update of Xbox Dashboard does not appear to have the WMC client (Here we go again!)

Links
Forum (Formerly TheGreenButton.com, acquired by Microsoft, promptly made unusable)
TheGreenbutton.tv is trying to go back to simpler format
WMC Hacks
Multiple Guide Listings
Guide tool - Bigscreeglobal
Guide tool - TVGuideHound
Codec Guide

[PiX64]

Not sure why everyone is so quick to give up on sage. Trust jeff, and give him the benefit of the doubt. Sage will continue to work for you even after epg service dies....if it dies. Xmltv can be used in it's place. If your extenders stop working, not sure why they would, but you could always migrate at that time.

That aside, if you do a quick search of the forum u will find numerous threads discussing all the points you brougt up above. I k oe I have seen numerous is great detail.

Good luck and I hope you don't jump ship just yet...sagetv and Phoenix is where its at! Try ou Phoenix which is in beta right now... You'll be blown away.

[svemuri]

I don't want to give up on Sage, but I think the writing is on the wall. I have 3 HD100s that are on their last legs. Apart from them I need 2 more. Comcast has encrypted everything but locals, so I need CableCard support (I've even placed a pre-order for HDHR Prime hoping that Sage would support it). I don't think I have a choice. But I'd love to be proven wrong.

I will do some searching on the forums and add links to this thread so that the information is available in one place.

I am just sad to see this unfold this way.
Sarat

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by PiX64

If your extenders stop working, not sure why they would, but you could always migrate at that time.

Now admittedly the HD200 and HD300 seem to be in better shape, but you do remember the reliability problems with the HD100 don't you? And Sage said those were perfectly reliable... I believe they never budged from their 1% failure rate claim, which almost certainly didn't paint an accurate picture of the situation.

So, forgive me for not having complete faith in my hd200 and hd300 working indefinitely.

[PiX64]

Fair enough. If it's gaurnteed cable card support u want unfortunately I think you're right and wmc is the only official support.

I looked around and I saw people had it working in mythtv...mythtv has several mythtv frontend clients if u look at the wiki.

Next-pvr (gbpvr). I saw a thread that said cable card was reported to work but I'm not sure to what capacity.

[PiX64]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Now admittedly the HD200 and HD300 seem to be in better shape, but you do remember the reliability problems with the HD100 don't you? And Sage said those were perfectly reliable... I believe they never budged from their 1% failure rate claim, which almost certainly didn't paint an accurate picture of the situation.

So, forgive me for not having complete faith in my hd200 and hd300 working indefinitely.

Yup I do remember and you are right. It's certainly a possibility, but I'm no willing to bail and find a new solution until I know what's going on with google. Not to mention in a pinch there is other ways to get recordings off of a sageserver with other devices.

But I def. Understand where you are coming from man.

[SHS]

What do we lose by migrating to WMC7+Xbox360?

If all ready own a Xbox then you set its extender
Lot of Custom
Shaing with a non OS
You can't migration any EPG data
There are lot other thing but I don't want get in to that

What do we gain?

DRM

What happened to thegreenbutton.com?

It now http://experts.windows.com/frms/wind...e/default.aspx
Truth me is it really woste place to go.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by PiX64

Yup I do remember and you are right. It's certainly a possibility, but I'm no willing to bail and find a new solution until I know what's going on with google.

I'm not going to run away, but I'll certainly be actively looking for alternatives. I really don't expect to hear anything remotely specific from Google on their plans for quite some time, so I don't think it's worth waiting for them.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by svemuri

What do we lose by migrating to WMC7+Xbox360?

Really, if all you want to do is watch recorded videos from extenders, then probably the main thing you lose is codec support on the xbox vs. the sage hd extenders. The Xbox can't handle DVD folder structures, or the high bitrate video from blu-rays. You'd have to re-encode blu ray rips using handbrake at a lower peak bitrate.

[pieroxy]

I am a user of Vista MCE and was supposed to switch to SageTV this week. Won't happen from the looks of it.

What I can tell you is this (from my experience):

You gain:
- A nice UI (much nicer than anything else I've seen so far)
- EPG everywhere, not just in the US, out of the box.
- Ability to watch DRM-crap which is probably unimportant for everyone.

You lose:
- Extenders. Only extender available is the XBox ans it sucks BIG TIME. Fan, ugly, expensive, butt-ugly remote, big, etc.
- Support for "fancy" codecs is not easy for some codecs. For example, no way to add AAC music to your collection. Codecs for video (MKV, DivX, etc) is fine though
- Windows is crap. My Vista setup is set on a 100GB partition. I didn't touch it for 3 years then it blew up with the partition being full (!) All on its own, like a big boy !
- iPhone apps for controlling the thing is ... fragmented and there is no real "full remote" to MCE. Some are good for music, others for video, etc...

That's my take, but then again, that's the only alternative as far as I can tell.

[pieroxy]

Actually, I post again to correct my own last sentence in my last post. No, Windows MCE is not the only alternative, there are others. What this whole Google thing is telling us is simple: trust closed source software at your own risk. And don't complain when the vendor vanishes and you're left alone with no shoulder to cry on.

Alternatives are Media Portal on Windows and MythTV on Linux. These will never get pulled out from under your feet, no matter what. If it's not important to you (the fact that the technology you've invested time and money on could vanish in a split second), then you may consider Windows MCE and Apple TV.

I will never ever again trust closed source vendors when OSS alternatives exists. Even if they look friendly and open as SageTV did. That's what I've learned today.

[sunray]

My Sage setup consists of a HTPC equipped with tuner cards which I use to record and watch shows. The actual recordings are stored on a separate computer which I use as a media server. It also holds my DVD rips though I use Theatertek to view them not Sage. Can you do this under WMC? I think I remember reading somewhere that WMC only supports writing to hard drives in the computer in which it is installed.

[pieroxy]

It certainly can access samba shares. I *think* recorded TV must go to a local HDD though, but I'm not sure.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by pieroxy

Alternatives are Media Portal on Windows and MythTV on Linux. These will never get pulled out from under your feet, no matter what.

That's not true, they can die just as easily as closed source software. Only difference you have the possibility of fixing things yourself. Though 99.999% of us don't have the skills and/or inclination to do that.

SageTV hasn't vanished, they've ceased development/sales operations, but SageTV still works fine, support is still available, and even when/if that ends, you'll still be able to use Sage with alternative EPG sources, and it will continue operating indefinitely.

I will never ever again trust closed source vendors when OSS alternatives exists. Even if they look friendly and open as SageTV did. That's what I've learned today.

Then I'm sorry but you're going to be stuck in a cold world of crappy software, no not all of it, but there's a lot of stuff that just doesn't have an open source equivalent. MythTV and Media Portal are not the equal of SageTV.

[sunray]

Originally Posted by pieroxy

It certainly can access samba shares. I *think* recorded TV must go to a local HDD though, but I'm not sure.

I was afraid that was the case. The reason I built a media server in the 1st place was to rid my HTPC of the heat and noise caused by the hard drives. I am running Sage as a service and using UNC paths.

[bhyman1]

I'll throw this out there.

Is there a good method for channel changing on a DirecTV box in WMC?

I'm using the excellent HTTP implementation right now in Sage. There doesn't seem to be anything as good on WMC, serial maybe, but thats a crap shoot nowadays.

Also to note, as long as there's guide data available for Sage I'll stick with it.

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by stanger89

MythTV and Media Portal are not the equal of SageTV.

Though if enough of SageTV's user base moves to Media Portal or XBMC, perhaps they'll eventually become viable alternatives.

While I'm not moving off SageTV yet, it's not in my interest to talk others out of it. Go! Be the pioneer! Please!

[Fuzzy]

I'm must wondering what Myth or XBMC does that sagetv doens't? what's the reason for the pioneering?

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I'm must wondering what Myth or XBMC does that sagetv doens't? what's the reason for the pioneering?

Don't know -- let the pioneers find out.

[svemuri]

I've updated my first post with information I've gathered so far.

For the WMC7 experts: I currently have analog capture cards capturing Dish output, HDHR for clear QAM/OTA and Firewire for cable. Sage lets me create different lineups for each of these sources. It appears that WMC only supports ONE lineup? How would that work?

The more I look for alternatives, the more I miss Sage. I hope the store re-opens and lets us buy a few extenders. I can stay put for while if I can get a few more extenders and use SageDCT for now.

Sarat