new anomoly with 7.1.7 and Colossus

[Rico66]

Originally Posted by tvmaster2

ok, cool. thanks for that. There is also a delay setting in the Hauppauge blaster config, which I use for the Colossus.
What do you recommend as a setting number for the Sage.properties line?

The delay in the blaster settings is for the blasting itself, to make sure that channel numbers are blasted correctly (specifically blasting the same number twice in a row takes more time)
The default for the delay in sage.properties is 4000. When I experimented with that for the HD PVR I went down in half second steps (500), ending up at 3000. With that number channels still switched without locking up, but that might have actually been the reason, why I saw this blue screen already in the past.

[sleonard]

The delay in the Hauppauge blaster SW is something different and will not help in this case. The delay_to_wait_after_tuning is per tuner in the sage.properties file and is in milliseconds. Find the setting for the tuner you want to affect and set it to something high like 8000 (8 seconds) at first to see if it helps at all. If it does then start lowering it until you find the point where you start having problems again and then raise it just a bit. I made changes in 500 ms increments and ended up at 4000 for my HD-PVR's but since getting the Colossus I haven't messed with it. I am planning to experiment with it again this weekend for the Colossus.

Also remember that this only affects the very beginning of recordings caused by an unstable output from the cable box. If your recordings are going south after the first few seconds of tuning this won't help.

S

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by tvmaster2

Thanks - the idea of fixing a resolution is my last resort, as I think when a device is advertised as working with many, it SHOULD!

I agree that it SHOULD work, but if it's not working for you, temporarily fixing the resolution may help you to prove out where the problem is. Also, it may allow you to have usable recordings while you wait for Hauppauge to fix their drivers.

You will probably need to do a Google search for your specific cable box to figure out how to fix the resolution (you often have to enter a secret code on your remote to enter a service menu to do this).

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by Tiki

I agree that it SHOULD work, but if it's not working for you, temporarily fixing the resolution may help you to prove out where the problem is. Also, it may allow you to have usable recordings while you wait for Hauppauge to fix their drivers.

You will probably need to do a Google search for your specific cable box to figure out how to fix the resolution (you often have to enter a secret code on your remote to enter a service menu to do this).

the Motorola DSR505 is easy - there's a button on the front that cycles through the different resolutions.

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by sleonard

The delay in the Hauppauge blaster SW is something different and will not help in this case. The delay_to_wait_after_tuning is per tuner in the sage.properties file and is in milliseconds. Find the setting for the tuner you want to affect and set it to something high like 8000 (8 seconds) at first to see if it helps at all. If it does then start lowering it until you find the point where you start having problems again and then raise it just a bit. I made changes in 500 ms increments and ended up at 4000 for my HD-PVR's but since getting the Colossus I haven't messed with it. I am planning to experiment with it again this weekend for the Colossus.

Also remember that this only affects the very beginning of recordings caused by an unstable output from the cable box. If your recordings are going south after the first few seconds of tuning this won't help.

S

OK, I'll fiddle with that for a day or two in hopes of Sage/Hauppauge solution. Regardless of changes to this setting, my box seems to GET the command and change channels immediately. Where is the delay - in Sage displaying the changed channel?

[KeithAbbott]

Originally Posted by Tiki

I agree that it SHOULD work, but if it's not working for you, temporarily fixing the resolution may help you to prove out where the problem is. Also, it may allow you to have usable recordings while you wait for Hauppauge to fix their drivers.

I'm going to try the opposite approach this weekend. I'm going to leave the STB so that it passes the source resolution to the component outputs, and instead disable all channels in the SageTV channel lineup that are not 720p. I'll try recording various 720p channels, and switching live TV between various 720p channels. If the theory is true that the blue screen is related to resolution switching, I should not get a blue screen during this test.

I'll also try the same thing for 1080i channels.

If I get a blue screen during any of this, I'll check and see what Sage is showing as the output resolution at that point.

Am I overlooking anything?

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by KeithAbbott

I'm going to try the opposite approach this weekend. I'm going to leave the STB so that it passes the source resolution to the component outputs, and instead disable all channels in the SageTV channel lineup that are not 720p. I'll try recording various 720p channels, and switching live TV between various 720p channels. If the theory is true that the blue screen is related to resolution switching, I should not get a blue screen during this test.

I'll also try the same thing for 1080i channels.

If I get a blue screen during any of this, I'll check and see what Sage is showing as the output resolution at that point.

Am I overlooking anything?

not from my tests so far - the blue screen only appears when either switching to or away from (usually to) SD channels which are 480

edit: did another test - SD to SD, also caused a blue-screen. So far, I don't think I've had a blue-screen when going TO a HD source

[KeithAbbott]

First, sorry for the long post. I've done a lot of experimentation this weekend, and wanted to share my findings.

Originally Posted by sleonard

The delay_to_wait_after_tuning is per tuner in the sage.properties file and is in milliseconds. Find the setting for the tuner you want to affect and set it to something high like 8000 (8 seconds) at first to see if it helps at all.

I started out this weekend by upping my delay_to_wait_after_tuning to 30000 (that's right, 30 seconds). All of my experimenting has been done with the delay set to 30 seconds, I have yet to shrink it down to something faster yet. It has made no difference at all in whether I get the blue screen or not.

Originally Posted by KeithAbbott

I'm going to try the opposite approach this weekend. I'm going to leave the STB so that it passes the source resolution to the component outputs, and instead disable all channels in the SageTV channel lineup that are not 720p. I'll try recording various 720p channels, and switching live TV between various 720p channels. If the theory is true that the blue screen is related to resolution switching, I should not get a blue screen during this test.

I'll also try the same thing for 1080i channels.

If I get a blue screen during any of this, I'll check and see what Sage is showing as the output resolution at that point.

Next, I disabled all channels except the 720p channels. I was able to switch from channel to channel with no blue screens whatsoever. I tried this for a good 60 minutes, maybe more, never once getting a blue screen.

Next, I enabled a couple of 1080i channels, and kept all of the 720p channels. Started switching back and forth between 1080i and 720p, and low and behold, blue screens started happening. Not every single time, but probably about 50% of the time. So the problem is not strictly switching back and forth between SD and HD channels, at this point no SD channels were enabled in my system.

Next, I ran a variety of tests utilizing 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i channels. I tried all combinations of switching between resolutions, and every single combination will create a blue screen roughly 50% of the time. I was hoping that maybe switching between progressive scan resolutions (i.e. 480p to 720p) would not blue screen, but it did. In my testing, the only way to completely avoid getting blue screens is to feed the Colossus a signal at a constant resolution.

Interestingly enough, when you are staring at the blue screen, if you look at "Detailed Info", the resolution that is displayed matches the resolution from the previous channel. I also viewed the blue screen recordings using VLC, and it also displayed the blue screen (instead of the actual recording), and displayed the incorrect resolution. Viewing the file information in MediaInfo, it also displays the incorrect resolution.

Which leads me to the following hypothesis: during the channel change, when Sage is ready to create the container (file) to store the recording in, the Colossus has not shifted over to the new resolution yet. Sage creates the container at the old resolution, and begins capturing the data stream. Moments later, the Colossus shifts to the new resolution, but by that point it's too late, the container has already been created with the incorrect resolution. I do not have enough information at this stage to point the finger at either Hauppauge or Sage, but I do wonder if there is an additional sage.properties setting that might delay the creation of the container long enough for Sage to get the correct resolution from the Colossus.

So my next step is to install WinTV (uggh) on my test server, to see if I can recreate the problem using strictly Hauppauge hardware/software. I'll report back with my findings.

p.s. The blue screen only happens for the first channel change to a new resolution. In other words, if you have switched from a 720p channel to a 1080i channel and gotten the blue screen, switching to any other 1080i channel at that point works properly.

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by KeithAbbott

Next, I ran a variety of tests utilizing 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i channels. I tried all combinations of switching between resolutions, and every single combination will create a blue screen roughly 50% of the time. I was hoping that maybe switching between progressive scan resolutions (i.e. 480p to 720p) would not blue screen, but it did. In my testing, the only way to completely avoid getting blue screens is to feed the Colossus a signal at a constant resolution.

Interestingly enough, when you are staring at the blue screen, if you look at "Detailed Info", the resolution that is displayed matches the resolution from the previous channel. I also viewed the blue screen recordings using VLC, and it also displayed the blue screen (instead of the actual recording), and displayed the incorrect resolution. Viewing the file information in MediaInfo, it also displays the incorrect resolution.

Which leads me to the following hypothesis: during the channel change, when Sage is ready to create the container (file) to store the recording in, the Colossus has not shifted over to the new resolution yet. Sage creates the container at the old resolution, and begins capturing the data stream. Moments later, the Colossus shifts to the new resolution, but by that point it's too late, the container has already been created with the incorrect resolution. I do not have enough information at this stage to point the finger at either Hauppauge or Sage, but I do wonder if there is an additional sage.properties setting that might delay the creation of the container long enough for Sage to get the correct resolution from the Colossus.

So my next step is to install WinTV (uggh) on my test server, to see if I can recreate the problem using strictly Hauppauge hardware/software. I'll report back with my findings.

p.s. The blue screen only happens for the first channel change to a new resolution. In other words, if you have switched from a 720p channel to a 1080i channel and gotten the blue screen, switching to any other 1080i channel at that point works properly.

excellent info - If the WinTV tests don't produce a blue-screen, I imagine we are in for a very long and nasty battle of "he said - she said" between Sage and Hauppauge, which would be unpleasent for us owners.

[KeithAbbott]

An interesting discovery: using "Preview this Channel" in the "Channel Setup" area in Sage, I do not get blue screens when switching channels using different resolutions! I am guessing that the channel preview does not record the audio/video to a container, that it instead passes it directly through to the small window on the screen after scaling to the appropriate size, and therefore there is no messed up container. This still does not prove whether the problem lies with the Hauppauge driver or with Sage, but what it does indicate to me is that Sage might be able to handle things differently (e.g. adding delay prior to creating the container) to prevent the blue screen from happening.

Is anyone else using source resolution able to create a blue screen using channel preview?

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by gambitpvr

I guess, as a last resort workaround, I could disable the SD channels on my Colossus lineup and only record them on my HD-PVR. There's only a few of them that I record (G4, Nick, Cartoon Network & HUB). I just hate to waste a tuner to work around a bug issue.

Or switch to a service that has those in HD.. ;-)

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by KeithAbbott

An interesting discovery: using "Preview this Channel" in the "Channel Setup" area in Sage, I do not get blue screens when switching channels using different resolutions! I am guessing that the channel preview does not record the audio/video to a container, that it instead passes it directly through to the small window on the screen after scaling to the appropriate size, and therefore there is no messed up container. This still does not prove whether the problem lies with the Hauppauge driver or with Sage, but what it does indicate to me is that Sage might be able to handle things differently (e.g. adding delay prior to creating the container) to prevent the blue screen from happening.

Is anyone else using source resolution able to create a blue screen using channel preview?

It still goes through the same recording process, but records it to an mpgbuf file in one of the recordings folders.

[KeithAbbott]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

It still goes through the same recording process, but records it to an mpgbuf file in one of the recordings folders.

Is there anything about an mpgbuf file that would make it more forgiving than the .ts files that are typically created by the Colossus?

[Fuzzy]

Not that I'm aware of. Shouldn't make a difference.

[KeithAbbott]

Originally Posted by KeithAbbott

So my next step is to install WinTV (uggh) on my test server, to see if I can recreate the problem using strictly Hauppauge hardware/software. I'll report back with my findings.

Well, I installed WinTV on my test server, but I'm getting audio but no video. I've sunk a fair amount of time into this this weekend, and really have no appetite for tracking down a video problem in WinTV, especially since this is smelling like a Sage problem at this point. If I could get confirmation from one or two other people who are getting blue screens that your channel preview works fine, I'll go ahead and file a bug report with Sage.

[KeithAbbott]

One other thought, the Colossus supports .ts, .m2ts, and .mp4 file formats. I know Sage supports .ts and .m2ts files, not sure about .mp4 files. So far, I've only tried this while Sage is configured to produce .ts files, it might be worth changing the Sage/Colossus configuration to produce .m2ts files, and see if the blue screen still happens. Can anyone point me to directions on how to configure Sage to produce .m2ts files directly from the Colossus?

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by KeithAbbott

One other thought, the Colossus supports .ts, .m2ts, and .mp4 file formats. I know Sage supports .ts and .m2ts files, not sure about .mp4 files. So far, I've only tried this while Sage is configured to produce .ts files, it might be worth changing the Sage/Colossus configuration to produce .m2ts files, and see if the blue screen still happens. Can anyone point me to directions on how to configure Sage to produce .m2ts files directly from the Colossus?

interesting news about WinTV, since my blue-screen problems didn't start until Sage 7.1.7 was installed.
I believe the .m2ts setting is done in the Arcsoft software, either Total Media Extreme or the newer app that came with Colossus

[KeithAbbott]

Originally Posted by tvmaster2

I believe the .m2ts setting is done in the Arcsoft software, either Total Media Extreme or the newer app that came with Colossus

Surely there must be a way to change the setting directly in Sage, without having to install Hauppauge software...

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by KeithAbbott

Surely there must be a way to change the setting directly in Sage, without having to install Hauppauge software...

not that I've found. The recording is, after all, a function of the tuner card, so that makes sense. Install the new app...it actually has a liitle editing function, which is handy.

Arcsoft Showbiz I believe

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by KeithAbbott

One other thought, the Colossus supports .ts, .m2ts, and .mp4 file formats. I know Sage supports .ts and .m2ts files, not sure about .mp4 files. So far, I've only tried this while Sage is configured to produce .ts files, it might be worth changing the Sage/Colossus configuration to produce .m2ts files, and see if the blue screen still happens. Can anyone point me to directions on how to configure Sage to produce .m2ts files directly from the Colossus?

I believe Sage has posted that they do not plan to support the .mp4 container with these capture devices because it is not possible to time-shift with an mp4 container (you have to wait until the file has completed recording), so would not be suitable for live tv.

I don't know about m2ts, but I don't think Sage has provided a way to change the container to anything other that .ts.