Difficulty mapping OTA stations for the EPG

[BrettS]

I'm not sure if I should post this in the beta forum or not, because I'm not entirely certain if I'm just missing something or if it's a problem with the beta. I upgraded to 7.0.12 while I was using cable, but recently cancelled the cable and switched to OTA. I scanned the channels and realized that some of the channel ID's aren't the same as Zap2it, so the EPG data wasn't showing up in the guide. I searched here and found a reference to the SageTV manual that showed me how to remap the channel to get the correct EPG data.

That worked for some of my channels, but some of aren't showing up in the list of station names. For example, channel 56.1 should be WOPXDT, and that does show up as an option for me to select. Channel 56.2 should be WOPXDT2 (and that's how it's listed on zap2it.com), however that doesn't show up in the selection list. I'm seeing this for about 4 or 5 of my stations and substations.

If I go to www.zap2it.com and enter my zip code and select the local broadcast I am seeing the missing stations listed there, so I'm not sure why Sage isn't seeing them.

Any suggestions?

Thanks much,
Brett

[BrettS]

Nevermind... I did some additional searching and it appears that these are OTA only channels that Sage isn't able to get EPG data for.

[wayner]

There are ways to deal with this so check in the EPG forum.

Essentially you need to find a cable company that carries WOPXDT and use that channel ID. It's a pain in the butt, but as long as one cable co carries the channel then you should be able to find it. I had this issue with qubo (a kids' channel which is a sub-channel of ion) which is OTA only in most parts of the US although there are a couple of cable companies that carry it.

[BrettS]

Thanks Wayne. I'll check out that forum. Actually Qubo is one of the channels I'm having trouble with, so at least I know I'll be able to take care of that one

Thanks again,
Brett

[wayner]

Let me know if you can't find it and I can give you my channelID for qubo.

Come to think of it we should start a thread that gives channel IDs for channels like this.

edit: What do you know, I have had a great idea twice! I started a thread on Qubo for just this purpose... http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46368

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by BrettS

If I go to www.zap2it.com and enter my zip code and select the local broadcast I am seeing the missing stations listed there, so I'm not sure why Sage isn't seeing them.

Did you pick the same lineup in Sage? If you're seeing stations on zap2it that aren't shown in the same lineup in Sage that sounds like a problem/bug and you should report it to SageTV.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Did you pick the same lineup in Sage? If you're seeing stations on zap2it that aren't shown in the same lineup in Sage that sounds like a problem/bug and you should report it to SageTV.

This topic is about OTA listings, so that is not always indicative of an EPG problem in SageTV. There are OTA-only stations that are not included in the listings SageTV gets from Zap2it, as mentioned in post #2 above, and that does not need to be reported to SageTV.

- Andy

[TwistedMelon]

Some markets have broadcast lineups available that you can pull up in Sage and pick the correct stations from. Buffalo for example. I use that as a basis form my OTA channels.

I know that for my setup, especially with the clear QAM channels, I have to add a dummy line-up to one of the unused inputs (SVIDEO for example) on one of my tuners so that I can create a custom line-up for QAM. Then I just remap all the stations for the custom lineup and turn OFF all everything in the dummy lineup so it doesn't interfere with operation (since they wouldn't record being on an unused/disconnected input).

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Opus4

This topic is about OTA listings, so that is not always indicative of an EPG problem in SageTV. There are OTA-only stations that are not included in the listings SageTV gets from Zap2it, as mentioned in post #2 above, and that does not need to be reported to SageTV.

- Andy

Well that's a shame, that you don't get all the listings. I've never run into it, the only OTA channels I actually use are the major ones (nationals+PBS).

[BrettS]

Well, I was able to successfully map all but one channel. And that channel is a freaky low power local station that doesn't even show up in the local listings for me on Zap2it. I briefly considered trying to write something to import the data for me, but then I discovered that I could find a program guide for this station anywhere at all... not even on their own website.

Thanks much,
Brett

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by TwistedMelon

Some markets have broadcast lineups available that you can pull up in Sage and pick the correct stations from. Buffalo for example. I use that as a basis form my OTA channels.

Sage CAN get the lineups, which is really nothing more than a list of channel number, and the zap2it ID's. Most of those ID's, are also carried on cable or sat lineups, so sage gets access to them. there are some minor channels, that the cableco's don't carry, that will be present in the OTA lineup, ut sage won't have access to.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Well that's a shame, that you don't get all the listings. I've never run into it, the only OTA channels I actually use are the major ones (nationals+PBS).

Agreed, it's a shame. I'm not really sure why either, you'd think it wouldn't be a huge difference in cost, especially since it's really only a few minor market channels that are really affected. But it certainly is a level of 'incompleteness'. You'd think OTA should be the simplest to implement.

[TwistedMelon]

I don't know details of Sage's contract specifically, but having negotiated data with Tribune (the Zap2It company) on behalf of my previous employer, I can tell you that data is pretty expensive.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by TwistedMelon

I don't know details of Sage's contract specifically, but having negotiated data with Tribune (the Zap2It company) on behalf of my previous employer, I can tell you that data is pretty expensive.

That may be true but as was pointed out by Fuzzy - how many channels is this? We are only talking about the delta between all channels that are carried on any satellite or cable server and all channels in North America. That can't be too many stations and in many instances the data is available if you are able to find the correct channel ID from a cable co that does carry the channel in question - see the Qubo example that I mention above.

[TwistedMelon]

Tribune doesn't sell data for individual channels. It's not a buffet restaurant. You have to purchase certain sets/types of data. It may be that whatever package Sage is getting doesn't have what you're after.

If it's only a few channels that are missing, it may be something that Tribune can add to an existing lineup that Sage does have access to. Again, I'll give the example of Buffalo antenna broadcast lineup. Is there a broadcast lineup for your area?

[wayner]

Originally Posted by TwistedMelon

If it's only a few channels that are missing, it may be something that Tribune can add to an existing lineup that Sage does have access to. Again, I'll give the example of Buffalo antenna broadcast lineup. Is there a broadcast lineup for your area?

It is not always as simple as that - if you go to Zap2it and select Buffalo OTA (Zip 14201) you will find that the station num for qubo (aka WPXJDT2 - channel 51.2) is 64284. But this ID gives no data when you use it in Sage. I had to look for a cable lineup somewhere that has this channel and if I remember correctly it was a Pittsburgh cable company. But since this is a kids channel that has the same schedule in all markets it doesn't matter what city location you use. I was able to get data in Sage remapping the channel to use a Channel ID of 54596.

So Sage is already paying for the lineup for this channel but for some reason their licensing doesn't allow them to determine that WPXJDT2, channel 51.2 in Buffalo using Station Num 64284 should just use the guide date for Station Num 54596.

And I believe there is the same issue with the other subchannels of channel 51 which is the ion network which is primarily OTA only with subchannels of religious programming with the exception of subchannel 2 which shows programming for young kids similar to shows on Treehouse TV or TVO Kids in Canada.

[TwistedMelon]

Write to Tribune (and Sage). That sounds like a bug in the data feed. Perhaps a mapping from one data set to another.

The way the data works is somewhat complex and I can't actually remember it all right now. BUt there are at least three different data feeds. Lineups are one. And lineups don't contain any programing data at all. They contain only station information. There's a feed for TV programs, which contains everything about the specific shows, but not about what channels they're on. Then there's the feed that maps programs to stations.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by TwistedMelon

Write to Tribune (and Sage). That sounds like a bug in the data feed. Perhaps a mapping from one data set to another.

I have complained to Sage and there response is that this is an OTA only channel and their contract with Zap2it does not include OTA only channels.

The really isn't anything to complain to Zap2it since they are providing guide data for this channel. I guess you could say that they are not normalizing their data since they are including more Channel IDs than are really necessary since channels of this nature are really all the same and although they have different call signs that is irrelevant since the underlying guide data is always the same. But they may have their own limitations for doing things this way - ie. each call sign (i.e. WPJXDT2) must have a unique station num/channel ID.

[Fuzzy]

Another option, is to try to get your local cable affiliate to carry that specific station... round-about way, but it'd work...

Still, I don't really understand why sage doesn't fully support OTA, I think that's the real issue here.

[TwistedMelon]

It seems then they have the schedule content that's needed (for the example Wayner gave). What they need here is the mapping from that station ID to that schedule data. So I suppose what they're missing is, as Wayner mentioned, the mappings for OTA-only stations to schedule data. The data sets available from Tribune are quite modular and as a customer you can pretty much put together whatever customized solution you want from them (and the price is dependent on that - and whether you're downloading the data in bulk, using their servers, letting your customers use their servers, etc... Lots of options).

Luckily pretty much all the OTA stations I receive (the Buffalo ones in the Buffalo lineup plus a bunch from Toronto) are all also available in other lineups - so they have a mapping to schedules.

Saying "we don't have it" - isn't really helpful though. It's understandable and it may not have been a big deal in the past, but I think it's a big enough deal now. At least for some of us. Maybe they don't see too many OTA customers. Nothing wrong with asking them to consider obtaining the necessary data in the future.

[Fuzzy]

It's not that they don't see too many OTA customers.. I'd wager they have MORE ota customers now than they used too.. I have seen many a comment of people on the boards in the last 2 years who have dropped cable/sat and gone OTA + Online only. I think the reason this all wasn't an issue when they started their zap2it contract, is there really weren't that many 'OTA only' stations back then. When digital tv was just getting rolling, it was still just the same major networks. The major networks are all carried by cable, so they were covered. It wasn't til a couple years later, that there started poppin gup all the niche sub-channels. this is where the inadequacy of the current provider contract with zap2it has shown itself, and I think it is because of this that it's time for sage to re-do said contract.