HD-200 output aspect ratio problem

[Shield]

I have the SagePC client as well as a HD-200 that are hooked up to one TV to illustrate the problem I'm having (each using different component inputs on the TV).

I have some home movies that I recorded and later went back in and added the date in the lower right corner. The HD 200 is cutting off the date on the right hand side and sometimes on the bottom.



First up - the Sage PC client file (standard .m2t 16 x 9 1920x1080):

http://www.goldcomics.com/images/2010_04_09_0020.JPG

Same file played back on the HD-200: (Note the 0 in 2010 is cutoff)

http://www.goldcomics.com/images/2010_04_09_0021.JPG
Here's another one; this is HDV 1440 x 1080 recorded back in 2006 with a Sony HDV camcorder.
Sage Client PC output:

http://www.goldcomics.com/images/2010_04_09_0023.JPG

Sage HD-200 output (Note the right and bottom are cut off)

http://www.goldcomics.com/images/2010_04_09_0024.JPG

I've tried switching the aspect ratio (this is set to "fill") but on the HD-200 modifying the horizontal/vertical doesn't do anything.

Can anyone help? Should I submit a ticket?

[stanger89]

None of your pictures work here, but it sounds like it's the TV's overscan.

[Shield]

It's doing the same thing on other HDTV's in my house (I have 3).

Can you see the pictures now?

Shawn

[stanger89]

No I can't. Most TVs have overscan though, what kind are they? Even LCD/Plasma TVs that don't have physical/optical overscan often have electronic simulated overscan. There's usually a way to disable that.

[MattHelm]

I can see them, but like Stranger says, TVs have over scan. This is mainly because the Consumer people and the computer people think 1920x1080 are different. I would look into the advance setting on the TV

[Taddeusz]

I have the same problem on my HD200 and HD100. The basic reason is because the HD extenders output YUV instead of RGB if the TV says it supports it. Many HDTV's treat the two signals differently and assume that YUV is a TV signal and RGB is computer and automatically apply overscan to YUV and nothing to RGB.

My TV does this and has no options to disable overscan.

[Shield]

Yes, it's definitely the HD-200 (Sorry guys). I have tried it on multiple HD TV's (I have a Sony 50" LCD in the living room, a 32" AStar in the bedroom, and a 28" in the basement and it's doing the same thing on all of them.

Over HDMI AND component, too..

I shouldn't have to adjust my TV's overscan (I can't anyway on the AStar or Westinghouse) for one device, when the 2 Directv HD boxes and the Sage PC client all scale perfectly. So does the DVD player.

You can test this yourself if you use the Sage PC client and you have a HD-200. Hook them both to the same TV (audio hookup not necessary). Playback some HD content and pause them at the same spot on the client and HD-200. You'll see you're missing some detail on each side with the HD-200, as it's like the HD-200 output is overscanned or something...

[paulbeers]

But you do understand that many VGA inputs on TV often do not have Overscan setup since it knows you are hooking a computer to it and therefor it removes the overscan (otherwise you would lose the start menu). All other connections will have Overscan. This is necessary for your tv to hide the closed captioning that is actually "hidden" in the top few lines of all video feeds.

You can also play with the overscan settings in the setup and that should help you out. You did run the configuration wizard in the setup right? And set the "L"s in the corner....

[Shield]

Yes sir of course...

There has to be a way around this - on the HD200 the "Zoom B" and "Zoom C" do change (even though it's for the worse). If I could setup and actually make changes to a custom aspect ratio that'd be great.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by Shield

Yes sir of course...

There has to be a way around this - on the HD200 the "Zoom B" and "Zoom C" do change (even though it's for the worse). If I could setup and actually make changes to a custom aspect ratio that'd be great.

The only way to do it would be to get SageTV to add an option to specify YUV or RGB output. That is the difference. I went back and forth with SageTV for the better part of a month over this very problem when they changed the firmware on the HD100.

Personally, I would rather see overscan on TV recordings and not have overscan when watching movies.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Shield

I shouldn't have to adjust my TV's overscan (I can't anyway on the AStar or Westinghouse) for one device, when the 2 Directv HD boxes and the Sage PC client all scale perfectly. So does the DVD player.

How have you verified that there is no overscan with your DTV boxes? The DTV boxes and DVD player are configured so that they don't place anything UI wise in the common overscan area for that very reason. You need to use a test pattern to verify overscan.

You can test this yourself if you use the Sage PC client and you have a HD-200.

I just tested with the HDnet overscan test pattern and there is effectively zero (less than 2) pixels of overscan output by my HD200 on my display (for which I have overscan disabled).

[Shield]

Originally Posted by stanger89

How have you verified that there is no overscan with your DTV boxes? The DTV boxes and DVD player are configured so that they don't place anything UI wise in the common overscan area for that very reason. You need to use a test pattern to verify overscan.



I just tested with the HDnet overscan test pattern and there is effectively zero (less than 2) pixels of overscan output by my HD200 on my display (for which I have overscan disabled).

2 out of the 3 HD TV's I use do not allow overscan to be disabled, and I have to get into the service menu on the Sony (which is no big deal).

If a PS3 plays them back properly, and if I burn them to a DVD and it plays back correctly as well, then the only logical thing is the output of the HD-200, wouldn't you think?

One shouldn't have to buy a high enough HDTV that allows you to disable the overscan - again, these are $500 range (well, 2 of the 3) HDTVs that should just work. Lots of people don't necessarily need or want to spend a small fortune on their kids/bedroom flat panels.

The only way to adjust the horizontal/vertical on the 32" screen is via the PC input; the 15pin d-sub VGA. But I use it to casually surf from the bedroom.

Again, if all the other component devices attached display the date correctly and only the HD-200 doesn't, I feel THAT device needs to be able to overscan/underscan in the hardware. And I'm not talking about just adjusting the UI's under/over, but HD video playback as well.

[Shield]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

The only way to do it would be to get SageTV to add an option to specify YUV or RGB output. That is the difference. I went back and forth with SageTV for the better part of a month over this very problem when they changed the firmware on the HD100.

Personally, I would rather see overscan on TV recordings and not have overscan when watching movies.

That's interesting. Couple of questions - is there an older version of firmware I could go back to you on the HD-200 that will allow this to work properly, and is there a hardware device in the chain I could buy that would allow this? I use component out on the HD-200 primarily.

[Shield]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

But you do understand that many VGA inputs on TV often do not have Overscan setup since it knows you are hooking a computer to it and therefor it removes the overscan (otherwise you would lose the start menu). All other connections will have Overscan. This is necessary for your tv to hide the closed captioning that is actually "hidden" in the top few lines of all video feeds.

You can also play with the overscan settings in the setup and that should help you out. You did run the configuration wizard in the setup right? And set the "L"s in the corner....

The "L"'s in the corner on the HD-200 are only for the user interface; not for adjusting movie playback....

But yes, I did fiddle with them to no effect.

[Shield]

I will just adjust it in the service menu on the Sony. I guess I'll have to add "can I adjust the overscan" to my list of requirements for TV purchases.

Thanks guys for the help though!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Shield

Again, if all the other component devices attached display the date correctly and only the HD-200 doesn't, I feel THAT device needs to be able to overscan/underscan in the hardware. And I'm not talking about just adjusting the UI's under/over, but HD video playback as well.

I don't know what to tell ya, but I've measured overscan on my HD200s, using test patterns and there is none.

[Fuzzy]

The problem really isn't the overscan itself, but that you added the date outside of the 'safe region'. The difference between the PC client and HD200 are because the PC Client, for some reason, is scaling the image down so that it fits in the screen (this is enabled by default in ATI drivers).

[Taddeusz]

If it's really that big of a deal to you complaining on the forums isn't going to get you anywhere. You need to tell SageTV your problem so they know it's something people want fixed. Otherwise they won't hear you.

Everyone seems to have ignored what I said but it's truly what's going on. I went back and for with SageTV for a LONG time.

Most HDMI devices output RGB. Including cable boxes and DVD players. The way I figured out what was going on is that my upscaling DVD player has an option to switch its HDMI output between YUV and RGB. When switched to RGB there was no overscan and when switched to YUV the TV added overscan.

YUV will give a better picture since that is the format the video is in. This is the reason the HD200 will output YUV if it is available on the TV. Component video, the three RCA jacks, is YUV. VGA is RGB. HDTV's treat YUV and RGB differently based on what type of signal it's receiving.

[Fuzzy]

The easiest way to check to ensure that there is no scaling going on, is to check for 1:1 pixel mapping between source and display. Attached is a great image for doing just this. You should be able to view this image on the HD200, or your client PC. If the image is an even checkerboard across the whole screen (will have to look close), then you are not scaling anywhere. If, instead, it is blurred into a grey, or shows moirre patterns, than it is being scaled.

NOTE: If you've got a DLP3D display, this is also a great image to give yourself a headache with your glasses on...

EDIT: Forgot to mention, Sage's photo viewer keeps the displayed image within the 'overscan correction' parameters, so you'll have to set them back to 0's and 1.0's in the client.properties file for your extender (down in the UI section... Ofsets to 0, scales to 1.0). Otherwise, Sage will scale the image, regardless of what your set is doing.