The future of Sagetv?

[Rico66]

Originally Posted by wayner

@voidstar - I must concur with stanger that your experiences are atypical. Sage is harder to set up than Win7MC but not that much harder. Win7 does look prettier but there are so many limitations - MS's lack of codec support for one. Win7 is the first version of Windows that can play Divx files out of the box but it doesn't play MKVs without installing codecs. MS always seems to be at least 5 years behind in support of codecs - sure you can add these in but that is a pain.

But Win7 is much prettier, you can't argue with that.

Sage doesn't have native codec support either outside of mpeg2. So you also rely on 3rd party software.
It actually also benefits of the native Win7 improvements, that you don't have to install additional codecs outside of the Haali splitter for mkv support.

[Fuzzy]

Actually, I believe sage DOES also now have H.264 built into the SageTV Video Decoder as well. Not that it is BETTER than microsoft's version, but it IS there.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by voidstar

I wish I knew why I've been so unlucky. I like to tweak out the UI (SageMC custom menus, STVi, etc...) and when there is a problem I avoid reinstalling like the plague! Reinstalling SageTV requires me to remember what I did to get it the way I had it or I have to backup special files and edit cryptic property files. But this could introduce more issues by having bad jar dependencies or messed up property files. This is not a program for the average user!

Let's be fair here. You're using Sage in an "unsupported" way. A way for which you don't even have a similar option with 7MC. So you've elected to make Sage much harder to configure than is required.

I spent $80 on the Linux version (I currently use the windows media center version) so I could put everything on my server with a big drive. I then discovered the regular SageTV interface can't connect to my Linux server, I have to use the lesser quality (SageTV Placeshifter) client that doesn't look at all as nice with my 1080i/DXVA setup. Why! I wasted $80 bucks.

SageClient should connect to a Linux server AFAIK.

I've been a professional user-interface software developer for 20 years. The lack of human centered design in SageTV bothers me to the core.

I have no idea what that means.

Relying on your user base to patch/add UI features is something I expect from free software not from products I pay for.

IMO, Sage doesn't "rely" on the community for that, the allow, or support extending the core software. That's something lots of good "pay for" products do. Heck even your vaunted 7MC "relies on" community-developed plugins for lots of stuff (MyMovies, MediaBrowser, etc).

How could SageTV be better?
- Make it so I don't event know what EPG means!

I'm with Andy, you should start a thread in the EPG forum or something, I've never had an issue with the EPG.

- Don't require me to read the manual or the forum

In my experience you don't, unless you run into an uncommon problem, or desire "non-standard" functionality, like running a replacement UI.

[/QUOTE]- Make it look nicer (Like XBMC or WMC)[/QUOTE]

I'd like to see that, if for no other reason than to reduce/eliminate the complaints

- Build a framework for plugins (And call them plugins! Not STVs or STVis)

I agree, I've never been particularly fond of the 'patch' nature of current "plugins", though the recent plugin manager developments have made it better.

- Let the interface connect to a plugin repository and have it automatically install them

Agreed, although you must be careful. A lot of the "plugins" available for Sage are (no offense to the creators) not in a state that they should be very easy to install. Like it or not the vast majority of plugins are things we've made for our own personal use that we've decided to share with the community, not more "professionally" created.

- Allow people to have remote servers (regardless of platform) using the better SageTV client

I thought SageClient could connect to any server.

- Let me have Netflix or Hulu without having to require on the kindness of plugin developers

I'm still hoping for Netflix integration. But don't hold your breath for Hulu, it seems the content companies don't want Hulu content included in any "TV-centric" product.

[phareous]

Regarding netflix and hulu, I finally just forked over the $ to get playon and now I use the playon plugin. It works great and I can view everything. And it is integrated into the interface, which is nice. I had no end of problems trying to get the old netflix plugin to work with my remote.

[dead_ferrets]

Originally Posted by voidstar

I've been a professional user-interface software developer for 20 years. The lack of human centered design in SageTV bothers me to the core.

Amen brother. As a user-centered UI design professional (on the information and visual design side) it's very disconcerting that SageTV, out of the box, is so lacking in this area.

To the point of the original post. I'm also a convert from BTV and I would recommend Sage despite it's user experience short comings... However the primary reason would be because of the talented community of developers who add-on to SageTV.

If it weren't for things like SageMC, comskip, webserver, SMW, and TVexplorer, I'd likely be running XBMC.

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I'm still hoping for Netflix integration.

To get Netflix integration (become a "Netflix Branded Partner"), SageTV will need to show Netflix how they plan on bringing at least 100k user (could be as low as 50k -- I've been quoted both) of their "Netflix Branded Application" in the first year of releasing such a branded product.

I doubt this will ever happen, unless Netflix loosens their restrictions. Seeing that I was quoted 50k user minimum a few months ago, and just recently 100k, it seems Netflix is going the opposite direction.

On a positive note, Boxee gained Netflix Branded Partner status, but they have a much larger user base.

[Lucas]

Originally Posted by dead_ferrets

Amen brother. As a user-centered UI design professional (on the information and visual design side) it's very disconcerting that SageTV, out of the box, is so lacking in this area.

To the point of the original post. I'm also a convert from BTV and I would recommend Sage despite it's user experience short comings... However the primary reason would be because of the talented community of developers who add-on to SageTV.

If it weren't for things like SageMC, comskip, webserver, SMW, and TVexplorer, I'd likely be running XBMC.

That's an interesting point of view. When I started my career as a developer(analyst/programmer in those days) 25 years ago our training pointed out the challenges in presenting information on an 80x25 character display in a way that it does not tire the user.

Since then UI development has progressed with GUIs etc but the objectives are the same. The idea is to present information in a simple and organized manner so that the user gets the right information on the screen. UIs for software/web sites today are for the user that sits behind a screen not for someone who sits on the couch 10 feet away.

I always felt that interfaces like WMC/XBMC etc are too cluttered even though they provide a "pretty"/impressive look. UIs for settop boxes are totally different animals.

Is it not strange that most STBs/cable/dvrs/sat receivers have a UI that is very similar to SageTV's default UI?

I think SageTV has researched this and is following industry trends which are not necessarily what Microsoft has achieved with the WMC interface.

Don't get me wrong, I like the look of the WMC and other "flashy" UIs but they failed the family acceptance testing when I tried to switch.

[dead_ferrets]

Originally Posted by Lucas

I always felt that interfaces like WMC/XBMC etc are too cluttered even though they provide a "pretty"/impressive look. UIs for settop boxes are totally different animals.

Is it not strange that most STBs/cable/dvrs/sat receivers have a UI that is very similar to SageTV's default UI?

I think SageTV has researched this and is following industry trends which are not necessarily what Microsoft has achieved with the WMC interface.

Interesting, my experience has been completely the opposite. My family found the default STV far too cluttered compared to SageMC or XBMC at least for browsing and playing vidoes and recorded TV.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about the set top box UIs as all the ones I've used have a UI that is nothing like Sage, with the exception of the EPG. I'd also add that many set top box UIs leave a lot to be desired as far as usability goes, so I don't know that emulating them is such a plus.

Isn't it a bit of stretch to claim Sage is following UI industry trends? I mean it's been how many years since they've updated the UI? I humbly submit that they are quite off trend from a UI perspective...

Don't get me wrong, I love the product but that's mostly because I've been able to achieve a much more usable, and yes nicer looking UI, thanks to the fine community of SageTV devs who create all the awesome add-ins. Hopefully if there is ever a Sage 7.0 release a UI refresh will be part of it and it will blow us all out of the water!

Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled thread...

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by dead_ferrets

I mean it's been how many years since they've updated the UI?

Why should that matter? I humbly submit that if you have to keep updating your UI every year to stay trendy, then you're doing it wrong. Good design should be clean and functional and timeless and should not require a fashion makeover with every release. A UI is a tool, not a party dress.

Note that I'm not saying the stock Sage UI necessarily meets that standard. I think it could use some improvement. But the reality is that Sage is a small company that does not have the resources to compete with Microsoft in the bling department. Appropriate UI design for Sage should reflect that fact, and not strive for cutting-edge hipness they cannot sustain.

[kingwr]

They don't have to design and create a great UI. Just change the UI architecture so that users can create great UIs. Release the stock UI on the new architecture to keep the old school folks happy, release a knock-off of the Windows 7 Media Center UI on the new architecture to keep the WMC converts happy, and let the user community do the rest.

[voidstar]

I think your missing the point. Pretty is not what I'm after. I'm after a product that works out of the box. A somewhat decent user experience would be good enough.

It looks like most of you are quite taken with SageTV. No need arguing, I'm glad it works for you! I'm sure I'm the only unhappy customer that has problems with it.

I'm still trying to get it to work. I finally decided to uninstall and try again one last time.

Steps:
- Install new Java (jre-6u17-windows-i586-s.exe)
- Install new SageTV (SageTV_V6_6_2Setup.exe)
- Start the SageTV server and run the client
- Set up my video source: HDHomeRun
- Configure EPG... oops...

When I try to remap my channels I get no stations IDs greater than 10K. This now looks like a different problem then the original EPG issue I had. (no its not a firewall issue)

Like a good user I enable debugging so I can look for exceptions. Luckily I know what an exception is! Be thankful none of you ever had to enable debugging.

For the server (sagetv_0.txt) I got the following exceptions (duplicates removed):

Thu 12/10 22:40:21.100 [KeepAlive@57b13a] Error with c/s comm:java.io.EOFException
Thu 12/10 22:40:21.101 [ConnRecvQueue@50ca0c] Error communicating with server:java.net.SocketException: socket closed
Thu 12/10 22:40:34.609 [ConnSendQueue@1033a6f] Error communicating with server:java.lang.NullPointerException
Thu 12/10 22:53:55.838 [SageTVMiniDiscoveryServer@1d95492] Error w/SageTV client connection:java.net.SocketException: socket closed
Thu 12/10 22:53:55.839 [MiniMVP@6c585a] MiniError-1:java.net.SocketException: socket closed
Thu 12/10 22:53:55.839 [MiniBootp@64ab4d] MiniError-3:java.net.SocketException: socket closed
Thu 12/10 22:53:55.840 [MiniTftp@5e13ad] MiniError-2:java.net.SocketException: socket closed
Thu 12/10 22:53:58.426 [Thread-167@1d07324] Error calling finishWatch from VF goodbye:java.lang.NullPointerException

For the client (sagetvclient_0.txt) I got the following exceptions (duplicates removed):

Thu 12/10 22:34:31.005 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1fc4bec] java.lang.NullPointerException
Thu 12/10 22:34:31.017 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1fc4bec] sage.a.e: Error in method reflection of IsChannelRemappedOnLineup of java.lang.NullPointerException
Thu 12/10 22:53:52.995 [ClientListener@16a5bcb] Connection lost from: null by:java.net.SocketException: socket clo
Thu 12/10 22:53:53.006 [ConnRecvQueue@1f6f296] Error communicating with server:java.io.EOFException

I'm not trying to solve this here. The future of a product should depend on quality. This is not quality. I've struggled with SageTV on different machines and different operating systems. It's always the same. I should just cut my losses. I'm gonna step away now and cool down. All my shows are in reruns anyway...

[Brent]

Originally Posted by voidstar

I think your missing the point. Pretty is not what I'm after. I'm after a product that works out of the box. A somewhat decent user experience would be good enough.

No HTPC really works "out of the box."
If that's what you're looking for you're probably really more of a candidate for a TiVo or Cable DVR. With some effort though most are really happy with what they can do with an HTPC. Definitely requires an initial time investment, but it's worth it for most of us.

From most of your other posts it sounds like you're having constant EPG problems? As Opus said, I would start a new thread and try to troubleshoot from there. And perhaps submit a trouble report to see if you can get it resolved that way. Something is definitely not right if you're having java errors with EPG remapping

[dead_ferrets]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Why should that matter? I humbly submit that if you have to keep updating your UI every year to stay trendy, then you're doing it wrong. Good design should be clean and functional and timeless and should not require a fashion makeover with every release. A UI is a tool, not a party dress.

Note that I'm not saying the stock Sage UI necessarily meets that standard. I think it could use some improvement. But the reality is that Sage is a small company that does not have the resources to compete with Microsoft in the bling department. Appropriate UI design for Sage should reflect that fact, and not strive for cutting-edge hipness they cannot sustain.

Wow, I wasn't suggesting an annual UI overhaul to stay trendy at all?

I completely agree, good design should be clean functional and timeless and that Sage doesn't meet that standard. Nor would I expect a company of their size to meet that standard early in their product cycle.

Which is exactly the answer to your question as to why it should matter. It matters because they didn't get it right the first time, somewhat understandable, so in the many intervening years I'm sure they've learned enough correct some of the UI shortcomings.

I just want to the product to successful and IMO a UI redesign is an important part of that success going forward.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by dead_ferrets

Wow, I wasn't suggesting an annual UI overhaul to stay trendy at all?

Sorry if I misinterpreted. But to me, words like "trend" and "update" (which you did use) are the language of fashion, not function. And there has been a history on these forums of people calling for UI makeovers simply because the current UI "looks dated". Glad to hear you're not in that camp.

[panteragstk]

This thread is interesting. People talk about netflix integration and hulu integration. People even talk about how boxee has a larger user base (I never would have guessed that. It isn't very remote friendly. Navigating is kind of odd as well.)

I have netflix integration with the old netflix plugin. I may not be able to update my queue, but I'm only looking for watch now functionality. That part still works great with my remote, and it works the way I want it to. Hulu has the hulu desktop that I've configured to also work with my remote. I launch it within sage with no problem. I use boxee for the few things netflix and hulu don't have. I like being able to browse apple trailers and other things that boxee has.

I think sagetv's user experience is great with all of the plugin options we have. Yes, they are created by users, but they all work great for me.

I tried the media center in windows 7 and I think the interface looks crappy. It may have more flash (can't think of a better word) but I don't care for how everything is organized. The only thing I like about W7MC is the way they organize music. TV functionality is the same as sagetv except it lets you browse upcoming movies by date and time (if sage can do this let me know).

I've tried xbmc as well and it looks interesting, but I don't care to learn an entire new htpc front end just to play with it. It is as complicated as sage IMHO.

I can also launch my gamex program that has all of my emulators in it and control it with my remote or wireless xbox controller.

After using sage the short time I have I would never go with anything else. It does everything I wanted it to do when I was a trial user and lots more. I had to learn a lot to get it where it is, but it just works.

Now I have to find a way to break it....I know, I'll get an HD-PVR and move to a client server environment with hd200's. That'll show my stable system whats what.

If it was idiot proof we wouldn't be able to customize it to the extent we can now.

[dgeezer]

It isn't very remote friendly. Navigating is kind of odd as well.

Actually I just installed the boxee beta on my client PC and using the LM Gestion Remote Software and one config file from the boxee forums I had my MCE Remote starting boxee instead of Windows 7 Media center and with pretty good navigation once in boxee.

I have a Zotac Ion 330 motherboard with 4gb ram running windows 7. I was never able to get the SageTV client to play back HDTV recordings, from when I still had the HDHomerun hooked up (another story), or my 720p .mkv movies without stuttering. They play perfectly in windows media player or WMC. The new boxee uses directx and the same videos play perfectly in Boxee also. I did install Haali and andy's Antipack but there are no other codecs on this relatively clean install of Win7.

I have been a Sage user for years and yes I tried everything I could find here in the forums to try and get the windows 7 codecs working. I spent hours and finally just gave up. Our solution is to use Boxee for movies and music and switch to the SageTV client for recorded TV. All my recordings are currently analogue so they play fine. I run a dedicated headless server and an HD200 on my other TV.

The new boxee beta interface is much improved IMHO. Most of that social crap is gone. Maybe, it would still be there if I had some friends... Having Last.fm and Pandora available without any work on my part will probably keep boxee on my client even if I do eventually get the SageTV codec problem sorted out. BTW, boxee does support .edl files and skips commercials without any plugins or additional scripts.

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by dgeezer

Actually I just installed the boxee beta on my client PC and using the LM Gestion Remote Software and one config file from the boxee forums I had my MCE Remote starting boxee instead of Windows 7 Media center and with pretty good navigation once in boxee.

After trying the new Boxee beta, I'm disappointed that my MCE remote doesn't work without resorting to remote remapping software. Back, play, pause, etc. should "just work".

I'm also disappointed in what they came up with for Netflix Watch Now even having "Branded Partner" status. They are still rendering the netflix player in a tiny box, and then enlarging it, reducing video quality. My netflix_silverlight_control script works better than that.

[korben_dallas]

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away, I was "the IT guy" for a medium-sized company. My boss, the CFO, asked me to write up a one-page document of all the stuff I did in the last few weeks. I had to cut down the margins to make every bullet point fit on one page. It was shown to the CEO, and his reaction was "I had no idea he did so much!". From that point on, my boss forced me to regularly communicate what I was doing.

I think that is the root problem here. For better or worse, this particularly tech-savy group of enthusiasts expects a certain level of communication from SageTV that they aren't getting. Is that the fault of the forum? Or SageTV's fault? You'll have to decide for yourself, though you probably realize that whichever way you place the blame, SageTV will likely continue communicating how and when it chooses, regardless of you.

I have been gone for the most part of a year, and I come back to TONS of new features, new hardware, and a dozen posts on SageTV beta progress. From that perspective, it looks like SageTV has been extremely busy.. and has been communicating it.

Now on a note about SageTV's future. It's been said many times, but EPG is king. Without it, I don't know if even all of SageTV's million features could convince me to try to configure my own guide data and babysit it on a weekly basis. I'd probably punt and just go with a dual HD tuner STB from my cable company.

And speaking of SageTV's financial situation, isn't it about time for a "when are they going to start charging for EPG" thread? Haven't seen one of those in a while. And humorously enough, I've changed my position. I would eagerly pay to keep SageTV going on a monthly basis.

[stanger89]

The problem is the internet "culture". These days any comment, on any new feature or date, no matter how it's intended, is taken by the "internet" as a "promise", and failure to live up to that is seen as betrayal.

It doesn't matter if the intent was to inform the community of stuff they're truly just looking at, that may or may not happen (maybe they're looking to judge interest in options so they can prioritize accordingly), or giving target dates (that can and do slip). If it's posted on the internet it's taken as a promise.

This unfortunately means it's safer to just not say anything than to risk creating an uproar....

[MeInMaui]

Originally Posted by stanger89

The problem is the internet "culture". These days any comment, on any new feature or date, no matter how it's intended, is taken by the "internet" as a "promise", and failure to live up to that is seen as betrayal.

It doesn't matter if the intent was to inform the community of stuff they're truly just looking at, that may or may not happen (maybe they're looking to judge interest in options so they can prioritize accordingly), or giving target dates (that can and do slip). If it's posted on the internet it's taken as a promise.

This unfortunately means it's safer to just not say anything than to risk creating an uproar....

Sounds just like my kids... Hmmm, that says a lot about internet culture, doesn't it?

Aloha,
Mike