Media Extenders/Players and Sage TV

[lolachampcar]

I am considering a home network media system that I would like to handle DVD rips, downloads, tuner content (live and recorded) and subscriber based content (cable, Dish,,). There is a lot of information on several forums that answer questions on the PC, tuners, subscriber content capture and the like. What I am having a hard time choosing is the package that manages everything.

My goal is for any of my three TVs to be able to schedule recording and play content (downloaded, recorded or ripped).

My question for SageTV is do you support Media Players other than the ones you sell? Linksys, Dlink and WDTV2 seem like obvious choices as they could be used with a lot of different software packages. The SageTV software is very affordable and seems worth a try but the equation changes if I have to buy SageTV branded media players that are of no value if I do not continue using SageTV as my front/back end software.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by lolachampcar

My question for SageTV is do you support Media Players other than the ones you sell?

No other players support loading or running the SageTV interface/software, so no.

[stuckless]

Originally Posted by lolachampcar

My goal is for any of my three TVs to be able to schedule recording and play content (downloaded, recorded or ripped).

Sage does that.

My question for SageTV is do you support Media Players other than the ones you sell? Linksys, Dlink and WDTV2 seem like obvious choices as they could be used with a lot of different software packages. The SageTV software is very affordable and seems worth a try but the equation changes if I have to buy SageTV branded media players that are of no value if I do not continue using SageTV as my front/back end software.

I have I have hard time with this one. Short of going with full blown pc clients, you'll have vendor lock in (or lack of features) with any extender. ie, linksys and dlink are "extenders" but only for MS media center. The the WDTV is not an extender at all, but rather a media playback device. Of the 3, then WDTV is probably the better better, since it doesn't integrate with server software, and it should be able to playback the sage media files, but you won't get the Sage UI.

When you buy the hd200, it will work as a stand alone unit (ie, like the wdtv) or it can run as an extender to the sagetv server. So, the value of the hd200 is still there, even if you no longer run the sagetv server software.

You won't be able to use your vendor locked MS Media Center extenders on the sagetv. Nor will you be able to use your vendor locked SageTV extenders on MS Media Center.

The sagetv recordings are NOT drm'ed, so any stand alone media player (wdtv) that supports your recording formats (mpeg2, or .ts files), will be able to play them, but you won't get the sagetv ui, so you won't be able to schedule recordings, pull up info, etc..

[lolachampcar]

Sean,

Thanks for the very thoughtful post.

My best bet might be to start with a Windows Media Center compatible player that also works with at least one other application so I'll have some options. I was just hoping that there was a SageTV solution for non-proprietary hardware.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by lolachampcar

My best bet might be to start with a Windows Media Center compatible player that also works with at least one other application so I'll have some options. I was just hoping that there was a SageTV solution for non-proprietary hardware.

There aren't any AFAIK. Nobody makes extenders that work with 3rd party software. Primary reason is there's no standard for interfacing with extenders, that means each SW uses it's own proprietary protocol.

For example WMC uses a variant of Microsoft's Remote Desktop Protocol for their extenders, my understanding there is everything is run on the server and the UI is just drawn out to the extender (the 360 might be different).

For SageTV, the extenders actually locally run a custom client SageTV app which does all the menu drawing locally, and only communicates with the server to execute logic.

The closest thing to a standard is UPnP, which is a standard for interfacing with media servers, but that doesn't provide the sort of rich interface required for things like exporting a program guide or custom menus, it only provides lists. This is how many standalone media players work, they use UPnP, but then they don't support "TV", just media files.

If you want to use extenders, I mean really use them to have a full experience (EPG, scheduling, etc) you have to get proprietary extenders. The only thing even remotely not proprietary is using full PC clients since you can run different software. But then WMC doesn't support that.

You want a whole house, multi-room, integrated TV and media system, you're going to be getting proprietary hardware and or software, that's just the way it is.

[lolachampcar]

I am starting to lean towards playing with Myth and linux thin clients. I need to play with the processing demands to see if I can get a fan less set up as noise in the TV closet is a real pain. One of these small Zotac GF8200 boards complete with AMD processor for $60 may be the way to go.

Does anyone have an comment on playback processing requirements? Is it better power budget wise (and thus need for a fan) to do it with the core processor or with the video sub section's DSP?

I wonder if any of these HP Atom based net books with HDMI out can handle the task. I've got a bunch of them which are used for some USB host stuff.

[Fuzzy]

A basic atom board would be pretty limited, as the intel gma is not very good(useless) with HD video, and the Atom itself isn't much help. however, the NVidia ION platform is pretty much designed from the ground up as a HTPC, and can accelerate pretty much any video you can throw at it (well.. not flash). Still.. with the cost you'll end up spending.. i still say the HD200 is the better option.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by lolachampcar

I am starting to lean towards playing with Myth and linux thin clients. I need to play with the processing demands to see if I can get a fan less set up as noise in the TV closet is a real pain. One of these small Zotac GF8200 boards complete with AMD processor for $60 may be the way to go.

Is that any less "locked in" than a Sage extender? Really?

[Tikker]

I'm really agreeing with Stranger89 here.

no matter what set top box you end up with, you're locked into the server software for it. unless you're very good at coding and can come up with a homebrew solution/transcoder of your own. I spent MANY MANY years, and countless hours attempting to rebuild a server software for my PRISMIQ

anyone that remembers those will know what I'm talking about (prismiq still is one of the best standalone boxes out there, but of course only really deals with mpeg2 decently and no HD)


if you're looking for a whole house PVR solution with extenders you have really 3 or 4 choices

MythTV: you really better be comfortable with tinkering
SageTV: tinkering is somewhat required, and has the best extenders
Windows: really works pretty well, but not as much flexibility, and the extenders suck donkey balls

GB-PVR: tons of tinkering required to turn popcorn hour devices into extenders, but it does work. really good PVR functionality, lesser as a media center though

[lolachampcar]

I have not played with any of the software options apart from WMC on my wife's HP touch screen thing. I found it interesting that I could peal back 18" of bare copper on a piece of coax, shove it into the side of the all in one display, tape the bare copper on one of the windows in my house and start recording HD over the air. It is a little back woods but I was curious to see how the whole scheduling and recording content thing has progressed. The simplicity and success with that little test is what started this whole thought process. That being said, WMC maybe a good quick test but I know enough of MS to look at other options.

Given that I have no idea where I will land on the software side and that the UI and related back end functionality is the most important element it seems like I need to keep my options open. The goal is to replace the plethora of cable/Sat DVRs (depending on who is offering the best deal at the time) with a central server and a box per TV. I've been around the block enough to know there is no way to know where I will land on software so proprietary hardware should be low on the list (SageTV HD STB extenders or Windows Media Extenders). If you end up having a problem (or your wife is annoyed) with the software, the hardware is rendered useless and this is silly as most of the cost is in the hardware.

So, my gut tells me to build the least expensive STB with the most embedded functionality, ability to boot from USB and ability to run Linux and Windows to have the most options. This may not be possible and a 2X cost for a generic STB over a proprietary media extend would kill the idea but I really should do a little research before I just give up. It comes down to MB, Processor, memory, box and IR remote. I have no desire to tinker on an ongoing basis so building an appliance type STB has great appeal. If I can get the generic STB remotely close to the cost of the traditional media extenders and I stay with Linux then I can prioritize the software options and start looking at them one at a time. It becomes as matter of time as the costs for the software side are low or free.

I see that Placeshifter will run on Linux. Will the primary SageTV “server” application run on Linux as well?

[Lucas]

SageTV server comes out with a version for Linux.

Don't take any offence but since, as you imply, family/wife acceptance and use is the key success factor, you may be taking the wrong road by following the approach of building open STBs. This will lead to problems which will take a toll on the usability of the system.

In the past, before the existence of extenders, I, like many others, run either a single PC with SageTV or other software on it directly connected to the TV or a server with client PCs at all TVs in the house.

My experience, no matter how much time I spent, is that there were always problems that needed to be addressed. Most of these problems needed time and money(hardware/software purchases).

It may come as a surprise but after switching to the HD100/200 SageTV extenders running with a simple SageTV server, the problems are minimal and total cost of ownership has gone down. When problems materialise, SageTV fixes whatever needs to be fixed.

These are the benefits of a closed system for which one vendor has the responsibility to make it work as a whole.

When you start relying on integration of systems/software from different sources on custom build hardware then the issues can be many. In that case, the integrator, ie yourself is responsible to make the thing to work.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by lolachampcar

Given that I have no idea where I will land on the software side and that the UI and related back end functionality is the most important element it seems like I need to keep my options open. The goal is to replace the plethora of cable/Sat DVRs (depending on who is offering the best deal at the time) with a central server and a box per TV.

The absolute best way to go then is to actually try each option, probalby on the box you've got already that recieves TV, until you can pick the one you want. Then get whatever extenders are compatible with it.

I've been around the block enough to know there is no way to know where I will land on software so proprietary hardware should be low on the list (SageTV HD STB extenders or Windows Media Extenders). If you end up having a problem (or your wife is annoyed) with the software, the hardware is rendered useless and this is silly as most of the cost is in the hardware.

Here's the biggest problem with trying to buy "extenders" first in your situation: No matter what you choose, there's a chance you'll be wrong. Even if you go with the "open" nettop solution, that really only allows you to pick between Sage and Myth. They won't work for WMC because WMC doesn't support PC clients.

I have no desire to tinker on an ongoing basis so building an appliance type STB has great appeal.

Then most likely you really don't want PC-based clients/extenders.

If I can get the generic STB remotely close to the cost of the traditional media extenders and I stay with Linux then I can prioritize the software options and start looking at them one at a time. It becomes as matter of time as the costs for the software side are low or free.

But again, if you migrate back to WMC, you're SOL. And even if not, if you end up with Sage on Windows, you're stuck buying a Windows OS license for each one.

I see that Placeshifter will run on Linux. Will the primary SageTV “server” application run on Linux as well?

It's not going to run on a nettop though. AFAIK Placeshifter doesn't support VDPAU which is the only way you're going to get any video to work on a nettop.

[lolachampcar]

Convinced and ordering a HD200 today.

Is there a SageTV Linux distrobution? Will SageTV be happy with the Myth Umbuntu distrobution?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by lolachampcar

Convinced and ordering a HD200 today.

I'm not trying to convince you to buy HD200s (though I definitely think they'll fit the bill), more I think you need to rethink your strategy. Instead of buying the extenders up front, I think you should try out the different software/options and see which you like. And then buy the extender/client that will work with it.

Is there a SageTV Linux distrobution? Will SageTV be happy with the Myth Umbuntu distrobution?

Sage will run on Linux, check the Linux OEM edition subforum.

[mbowe]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I'm not trying to convince you to buy HD200s (though I definitely think they'll fit the bill), more I think you need to rethink your strategy. Instead of buying the extenders up front, I think you should try out the different software/options and see which you like. And then buy the extender/client that will work with it.



Sage will run on Linux, check the Linux OEM edition subforum.

I also think Sage and the extenders will fit the bill, and I am convinved extenders are the only reliable option if Wife, kids, friends, baby-sitters, etc. are going to be using the system. For me, 'Copy Exact' is critical, meaning I want each deployed TV to instantly snap into our home media model as an exact copy of the previous TV. I want consistant experience through-out the house, 'just want it to work' and do not want endless tinkering required (optional is okay ), and purpose built extenders are the only way I've found to accomplish this. And, as stranger89 suggests, running the server(s) through a test run before making the h/w invest isn't a bad idea, unless a $200 loss won't hurt too bad. I'd also bet that even buying 2 or 3 different extenders and taking a loss on the 1 or 2 you're not going to use would be significantly cheaper then putting a PC, netbook or other client through-out the house.

[Fuzzy]

there's also considerable power savings involved in using the purpose built extenders... the HD200's 8W is far less than any PC based system with anywhere near similar video playback capabilities can provide.