QUESTION: Is it time for a new container?

[wayner]

Originally Posted by jlmdxtv

I'm desperately trying to keep all of my recordings to mpg format. I haven't bothered with HD-PVR because it doesn't record in mpg.

So are you implying that you would rather watch shows in MPEG format in low def than in H.264 format in hi def?

[gplasky]

Keep in mind that that the .TS container from HDHR are hi-def mpeg files.

Gerry

[wayner]

Originally Posted by gplasky

Keep in mind that that the .TS container from HDHR are hi-def mpeg files.

But how do you get premium HD channels into the HDHR? I watch a lot of sports too but other than the NFL most sports is on ESPN or other cable/sat only channels that are likely to be encrypted.

[gplasky]

From my cable provider I get the HD locals. Premium channels I use the HD-PVR. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I just meant to point out there is more hi-def files than just the h.264.

Gerry

[wayner]

Originally Posted by gplasky

From my cable provider I get the HD locals. Premium channels I use the HD-PVR. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I just meant to point out there is more hi-def files than just the h.264.

I realize that Gerry as I get OTA HD channels in MPEG2. I also prefer MPEG2 as Comskip is about 5X faster on MPEG2 vs. H.264 but I wouldn't sacrifice HD for easier comskipping or editing.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by wayner

I realize that Gerry as I get OTA HD channels in MPEG2. I also prefer MPEG2 as Comskip is about 5X faster on MPEG2 vs. H.264 but I wouldn't sacrifice HD for easier comskipping or editing.

I'm with you there. Videoredo beta is working very well for editing h.264 and I believe it may be ready by the end of the month. Comskip is just about as accurate with my h.264 as it is with my mpeg2 files. I'm a happy camper.

Gerry

[jlmdxtv]

Originally Posted by wayner

So are you implying that you would rather watch shows in MPEG format in low def than in H.264 format in hi def?

I watch all the locals in HiDef mpg and ESPN is limited to QAM SD or live viewing. I'm giving up a lot I know. If the HDPVR put out MPG then I'd have one today.

Now if someone could recommend a video player that worked as well as windvd7 on H.264 files then I'd go for it. I need very smooth scroll at various speeds, and 1.5x playback with voice. VLC/PowerDvd/Windvd9/Hd100/SageTV don't cut it. I don't intend on hijacking your thread, just stating why I'm stuck in 2004.

john

[mayamaniac]

There are two issues here.

First, if you really worry about wiz.bin corruptions, then a better auto backup/restore tool is a better solution. Personally, I'm with the "not gonna worry about wiz.bin corruption camp" since it hasn't happened to me in years.

Second, I agree that SageTV should consider a new container, not to replace the data in the wiz.bin, but instead in addition to what is stored in the wiz.bin should also be generated in the metadata of the container. This will aid other softwares and plugins to access the same data that is in the wiz.bin but from the metadata in the container. And vice versa, in the rare case where the wiz.bin is corrupted and no backups are available, SageTV can re-import the info from the metedata in the containers into the new wiz.bin.

However, I'm not a fan of MKV since it hasn't been a universally accepted format, yet. Maybe MPEG2-TS is the better choice.

[Fuzzy]

You second issue is exactly what I was proposing. Nowhere did I say that wiz.bin should be replaced, and, like all forum threads, this seemed to go way off in the wrong direction.

As for MKV acceptance, I think you underestimate the level of acceptance it is gaining. There is a slough of consumer electronics devices supporting the format. (JVC, Phillips, Moxi and Samsung have all released devices that support it.) It also is, by design, VERY extensible. It will support ANY video or audio codec. It includes the ability to embed files. It is even getting a menuing system. Obviously, these features are not necessary for sage, it is a sign that it WILL be a very prominent standard in the future. The key advantage for Sage is the ability to embed unlimited forms of metadata (placed anywhere in the file, with a pointer at the beginning, allowing easy editing and additions). This is something that MPEG2-PS or TS simply cannot do, and probably never will.

[gplasky]

There are already various metadata tags that exist and are proposed for various files formats and software to add them in and read them. MovieID, IDivx, IDM tags based on IMDB, etc have been propsed for avi, divx, mpeg-ps & -ts, etc. The whole problem is getting someone to agree on the "standard". Another container is not the savior for this proposal. It's been proposed time and time again.

Gerry

[Tiki]

If there was a standard format for embedding tags (like ID-3 tags) in video files, that was recognized by other devices and software, then I would say it would be good if Sage supported it.

If it was possible to support such a standard with the existing MPEG-TS containers, then great, no need to change. If MKV files were the only format for which a standard evolved, then it might be nice if Sage migrated that way. However, from the sounds of things, there are no standards in place for this. While MKV can accommodate custom tags, there are no rules in place to make sure that the tags that one piece of software uses will be readable by any other piece of software.

To me, the big advantage of tagging the files would be to make them more portable. So, if I record a TV show with Sage, if the metadata was embedded in the file, I could play it back on another device (maybe Mindows Media Center, or Beyond TV, or some set-top box media player, or an iPod) and it would be able to display all the details about the recording.

If Sage is the only software that can interepret the tags that Sage writes, then the only purpose for the tags is to be a backup to Wiz.bin. Since we need to back up Wiz.bin regularly anyway to make sure we don't loose other important data (like the Watched history), I don't see a whole lot of benefit.

PS- I've been using Sage for many years now and have never had a corrupted wiz.bin yet (knock on wood). Still, I back up once a day to one location, and once per week to a different location, plus I backup my entire SageTV directory every time I install an upgrade or test a new plugin - just in case.

[APillowOfClouds]

I would like to add this: I really want to transfer a bunch of my shows off of 2 old inefficient NAS machines to a new quad-core machine with 2TB of storage that I built like 6 months ago. I have not transferred it and shut down the old machines yet because of the whole wiz.bin thing.

The problem is, I will be going from 3 shares on 2 machines to a new share on a third. The only way to tell Sage that the shows are in a new place is to shut down sage, move them, start sage up (with recovery flag? not clear) and then hope it recognizes the shows in the new directories. The only way to see if it recognized them is to wait some unspecified amount of time for Sage to scan, then check the shows one by one. If it doesn't recognize some of them, I have to restore the wiz.bin and start over.

In BeyondTV, all I had to do was drag them from one share to the other, WITH BTV RUNNING, because it kept the metadata in .xml files with the same name as the shows and could readily recognize any new files in any directory.

Also, in BTV when I wanted to put my own mpeg's in the shows list under a custom show name, I could just drag them in and even without accompanying .xml's it would put the files in the shows list. In sage, I have to create a custom xml and import it with nielm's web tool

I realize I could have them in my videos section but this is not as convenient and is not always what i want. For one thing, with BTV I transcoded voicemail .wav files automatically and placed them in the BTV shows directory so my wife could check voicemail by watching episodes of the "voicemail show" It worked great. In Sage, she would have to go switch to the videos section and browse to a folder. Not as nice.

99% of Sage blows away BeyondTV, but this is one huge glaring exception.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by APillowOfClouds

I would like to add this: I really want to transfer a bunch of my shows off of 2 old inefficient NAS machines to a new quad-core machine with 2TB of storage that I built like 6 months ago. I have not transferred it and shut down the old machines yet because of the whole wiz.bin thing.

The problem is, I will be going from 3 shares on 2 machines to a new share on a third. The only way to tell Sage that the shows are in a new place is to shut down sage, move them, start sage up (with recovery flag? not clear) and then hope it recognizes the shows in the new directories. The only way to see if it recognized them is to wait some unspecified amount of time for Sage to scan, then check the shows one by one. If it doesn't recognize some of them, I have to restore the wiz.bin and start over.

In BeyondTV, all I had to do was drag them from one share to the other, WITH BTV RUNNING, because it kept the metadata in .xml files with the same name as the shows and could readily recognize any new files in any directory.

Also, in BTV when I wanted to put my own mpeg's in the shows list under a custom show name, I could just drag them in and even without accompanying .xml's it would put the files in the shows list. In sage, I have to create a custom xml and import it with nielm's web tool

I realize I could have them in my videos section but this is not as convenient and is not always what i want. For one thing, with BTV I transcoded voicemail .wav files automatically and placed them in the BTV shows directory so my wife could check voicemail by watching episodes of the "voicemail show" It worked great. In Sage, she would have to go switch to the videos section and browse to a folder. Not as nice.

99% of Sage blows away BeyondTV, but this is one huge glaring exception.

nielm XML File Generator
Reimport with nielm's Web Server.

Gerry

[APillowOfClouds]

Originally Posted by gplasky

nielm XML File Generator
Reimport with nielm's Web Server.

Gerry

Thanks, but it is still such a royal PITA compared to just moving a group of files.

[reggie14]

I agree with APillowOfClouds. Neilm's tool, suggested by gplasky, is a nice option, but I really wish there was something better built-in for moving files. Despite the fact that there are pretty detailed (and, IMHO, sort of confusing) instructions in the FAQ, we seem to get questions related to this fairly often in the forum.

I like the idea of tagging each file. I don't think mkv is the way to go yet, since the support for it isn't widespread enough. It seems like mpeg2-ts would be the way to go, assuming there's a way to add the tags without screwing up playback in software and on devices that can't read the tags (I assume that's not a problem).

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by gplasky

There are already various metadata tags that exist and are proposed for various files formats and software to add them in and read them. MovieID, IDivx, IDM tags based on IMDB, etc have been propsed for avi, divx, mpeg-ps & -ts, etc. The whole problem is getting someone to agree on the "standard". Another container is not the savior for this proposal. It's been proposed time and time again.

Gerry

You are correct, many metadata tags have been proposed for many difference formats. Some 10+ years ago, and none are anywhere NEAR approaching any sort of standard or across the board acceptance. Mostly because they are hacks on top of existing, limited, and aging technologies. MPEG, as a group, has been slow to non-existent to expand their standards. Microsoft, the original champions of AVI, have completely abandoned the format. I feel a 3rd party extension on top of an industry standard, is just that... an extension.. not a standard.

Originally Posted by Tiki

If there was a standard format for embedding tags (like ID-3 tags) in video files, that was recognized by other devices and software, then I would say it would be good if Sage supported it.

If it was possible to support such a standard with the existing MPEG-TS containers, then great, no need to change. If MKV files were the only format for which a standard evolved, then it might be nice if Sage migrated that way. However, from the sounds of things, there are no standards in place for this. While MKV can accommodate custom tags, there are no rules in place to make sure that the tags that one piece of software uses will be readable by any other piece of software.

Actually, this is not correct. While MKV does support any number of custom tags, it also contains a pre-defined list of 'official tags' with standardized definitions. A larger list of official tags than any other ID standard/proposal, and already includes pretty much any information that Sage would use.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Actually, this is not correct. While MKV does support any number of custom tags, it also contains a pre-defined list of 'official tags' with standardized definitions. A larger list of official tags than any other ID standard/proposal, and already includes pretty much any information that Sage would use.

And just like the other tags it assumes a video is a movie and misses any of the TV-specific tags that would be needed such as Season, Episode, etc. MKV begins to fit the bill. But not enough for me to begin using it on a daily basis. Heck, h.264 is just about to become as easy to edit as mpeg2 files and that has taken quite a while.

Gerry

[Fuzzy]

Look further up in the Matroska docs under Target Type. Season and Episode are actually included as hierarchical layers BEFORE the tags themselves. This is designed to, in essence, include an entire show's collection, or whole season, into a single file. Obviously, not necessary for Sage, but VERY nice for storing entire music discs/anthologies as single files. Regardless, it DOES include the features required. It also has the ability to assign actors to different levels.. so Main show stars could be assigned to the Show or Season level, with Guest stars being assigned to the episode level. Actors can also be sub-tagged with the Character they play.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Look further up in the Matroska docs under Target Type. Season and Episode are actually included as hierarchical layers BEFORE the tags themselves. This is designed to, in essence, include an entire show's collection, or whole season, into a single file. Obviously, not necessary for Sage, but VERY nice for storing entire music discs/anthologies as single files. Regardless, it DOES include the features required. It also has the ability to assign actors to different levels.. so Main show stars could be assigned to the Show or Season level, with Guest stars being assigned to the episode level. Actors can also be sub-tagged with the Character they play.

Nice.

Gerry

[MattHelm]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Look further up in the Matroska docs under Target Type. Season and Episode are actually included as hierarchical layers BEFORE the tags themselves. ....

Now if someone would come up with a good program and library to tweak the files we already have!