What do I need to know about ATI video cards?

[Tiki]

I am currently running Sage on a relatively old PC, connected to an older HDTV. I am thinking about upgrading my video card to one of these two ATI HD4650 cards:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102851
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814103080

I currently have an NVidia 6200 and to get hardware acceleration with it for DVDs and MPEG-2 recordings I had to buy the PureVideo Decoder. If I switch to one of these ATI cards, do I need to buy another decoder to take advantage of their hardware acceleration?

Also, has anyone tried either of these cards?

In case you are wondering, I have an older PC with AGP 4x/8x video and a small power supply (300W) that I can't easily upgrade without also upgrading my case. I am directly connected to a an older 50-inch HDTV via component video. The TV only supports 480i/480p/1080i inputs and the only connections are component, composite, and S-video. Oh, and I only have room for a single-slot video card.

I currently have my video card outputting 1080i to the TV (actually it is only 960 lines due to overscan on the TV). It scales and plays 480i, 480p, and 720p content perfectly, but when I try to play 1080i content, it skips frames so it looks jittery like it is playing back at 10 or 15fps. So it appears it must be choking on de-interlacing the 1080i content (or the combination of de-interlacing, scaling, and re-interlacing when the source is 1080i is just too much). This is my motivation for upgrading.

For the time being, my goal is to be able to play 1080i MPEG-2 content smoothly without undergoing major upgrades to my PC and/or TV. If anyone has alternate video card suggestions, I'd like to hear them

Video Card Requirements:

• 1080i MPEG-2 playback (hardware accelerated)
• AGP 4x/8x interface
• Component video output
• Single Slot card
• Low power consumption
• Low Cost
• Low Noise

Other things that would be nice but not required: 1080p playback, H264 acceleration, HDMI output

[Fuzzy]

The Cheaper of the two would be plenty, and really, either would be overkill. With the right CODECs, an HD3000 series will playback H.264 1080p fine.

That said, it may be worth instead looking at getting an HD200 for your playback. yes, it would cost a bit more, but it would get that load off the server altogether, letting it focus just on recording and storing... save a lot of electricity too. I certainly wouldn't spend $80-$90+ trying to get the older PC to playback the better video, when $180 could get an extender that would make your whole experience better.

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

The Cheaper of the two would be plenty, and really, either would be overkill. With the right CODECs, an HD3000 series will playback H.264 1080p fine.

That said, it may be worth instead looking at getting an HD200 for your playback. yes, it would cost a bit more, but it would get that load off the server altogether, letting it focus just on recording and storing... save a lot of electricity too. I certainly wouldn't spend $80-$90+ trying to get the older PC to playback the better video, when $180 could get an extender that would make your whole experience better.

Thanks for the feedback. I have an HD200 for another room, but for this room I also want the ability to minimize Sage and open a browser or run DVD ripping software or DVD burning software once in a while.

As far as the HD3000 versus HD4000, right now both are about the same price at Newegg and also the same physical size.

What about Codecs with the ATI cards? Does ATI supplya free Codec? Can I use the NVidia PureVideo codec I already paid for? Does ATI sell a high performance codec?

[Wirenut]

ATI has the AVIVO codec, which works well, when it works... sometimes it wont work with some HDHR streams.... but looks pretty good when it works.

I've had like four different ATI cards... HD3850 [AGP] now PCie HD3450, HD4870, and a couple of others I can't remember, all of which worked with Hardware acceleration of the NVidia PureVideo codec, inclucing my ATI Sapphire on the AGP bus. It's my choice currently with the 4870. That and AC3 Filter for audio. Works well with PureVideo, and Hi Def Mpeg2 streams.

Regards,

Wirenut

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by Tiki

What about Codecs with the ATI cards? Does ATI supplya free Codec? Can I use the NVidia PureVideo codec I already paid for? Does ATI sell a high performance codec?

You can install AVIVO, but it's a sw decoder. The PureVideo decoder may work depending on how it implements HWA.

AFAIK there aren't any free/OSS HWA mpeg-2 decoders. The MPC-HC supports HWA AVC-1 and VC-1 on ATI cards though.

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by babgvant

You can install AVIVO, but it's a sw decoder. The PureVideo decoder may work depending on how it implements HWA.

AFAIK there aren't any free/OSS HWA mpeg-2 decoders. The MPC-HC supports HWA AVC-1 and VC-1 on ATI cards though.

What is the MPC-HC?

Does anyone have a recommendation for a hardware-acclerated decoder for MPEG-2 that will work with ATI Radeon 4xxx series cards? I need something that will work for both Sage TV Recordings and DVD's (CSS).

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by Tiki

What is the MPC-HC?

Does anyone have a recommendation for a hardware-acclerated decoder for MPEG-2 that will work with ATI Radeon 4xxx series cards? I need something that will work for both Sage TV Recordings and DVD's (CSS).

MPC-HC

I use AVIVO on rec tv because it has the best CC support and the PDVD (supports HWA) filter for DVDs on a 4650.

Any modern (non-atom) PC can handle HD MPEG2 decoding in SW.

[Wirenut]

Like I said above. You can use the Nvidia Purevideo codec with your ATI card and it works with H/W acceleration. My HD4870 works great with it.

As for the ATI AVIVO codec[free from ATI], if it runs in software, I have only 5-10% CPU load on a dual core Wolfdale processor.... which leads me to believe I'm getting H/W acceleration there too. ...this is ofcourse with Mpeg2 HD video only.

This is under Win XPpro Sp3. Using 3D acceleration and VMR9 rendering.

[Tiki]

Thanks Wirenut - I ordered the HD4650 AGP video card today and will have to give the NVidia PureVideo decoder a try (the NVidia website specifically says it needs a compatible NVidia video card, but if it will work with an ATI card too that would be great). Of course I will also test the AVIVO codec that apparently comes with the Catalyst software supplied with the card.

My main concern is that I want to be able to watch 1080i MPEG-2 content captured with the HDHomerun without stuttering or dropped frames.

If it turns out that the HW acceleration doesn't work, it sounds like my options are Intervidio WinDVD or Cyberlink Power DVD.

[Wirenut]

The Avivo Codec is not included with the Catalyst suite. It's a separate download and free from ATI.... it's located here: http://game.amd.com/us-en/drivers_ca...adeonxavivo-xp

Look for "Complete AVIVO Package" and download and install.

I use the PureVideo codec for DVD's with CSS protection with my HD4850 and have H/W accel. AVIVO does work well with recorded TV... and I switched to it for 1080i high motion sports 'nfl football' and have been quite happy. It seems to work more 'fluidly' with sports. The 720p stuff always looks great.

YMMV.

Wirenut

[Tiki]

To update this post, I installed my HD4650 video card and am now able to watch 1080i MPEG files created by my HDHR with smooth playback to HDTV (System still has Sepron64 3100+ and running WinXP Pro).

It appears that the "ATI MPEG Video Decoder" was automatically installed when I installed the drivers from the install CD that came with the card.

Doing a little experimenting, I found that I got similar results playing back HD and SD MPEG-2 files with either the ATI MPEG Decoder, NVIDIA MEG Decoder, or SageTV MPEG Video Decoder (with DXVA enabled). In all cases, my worst case CPU usage was about 45% when playing back a pre-recorded 1080i/30 MPEG-2 file. CPU jumped to about 65% when watching live tv on a station that broadcasts in 1080i/30. In the Catalyst Control Center, there is an "Activity" meter that pegged at about 75% when playing back the 1080i files (it was only about 35% playing back 720p/60 files).

One comment is that I still needed to use FSE to get smooth playback of HD content (720p or 1080i) with VMR9. I could also get smooth playback with Overlay, but the drawback to overlay is that you must disable 3D acceleration if you want transparent UI elements like the progress bar. On my system, the menus become very sluggish with 3D acceleration disabled.

Two additional notes: (1) Hulu is still unwatchable at full-screen resolutions. This is because Hulu uses Flash and the current version of Flash (10.0) is not optimized for hardware acceleration of video.
(2) H264 / MPEG4 video plays back well with low CPU usage in MPC-HC or Graph-edit, but when I play it in Sage CPU pegs at 100%. I haven't been able to figure out why yet. Any pointers in this regard would be appreciated...

[Fuzzy]

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head Tiki regarding the renderers. VMR9 is rarely smooth (ReClock can make it smoother, sometimes). Overlay is definitely smooth (because it leaves the frame control to the video card, so it is always in sync) but since it is done on the video card, the transparent effects don't work. Microsoft also realizes this deficiency, and as such, have developed a replacement for both. EVR (Enhanced Video Renderer) solves the problems of both, as well as opens up more extensive hardware acceleration paths. This is the number one reason I see to use Vista or Win7 for media playback. I've recently switched to Win7 on my server/client, and the smoothness is perfect.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by Tiki

(2) H264 / MPEG4 video plays back well with low CPU usage in MPC-HC or Graph-edit, but when I play it in Sage CPU pegs at 100%. I haven't been able to figure out why yet. Any pointers in this regard would be appreciated...

What video decoder are you using for h.264?

[gplasky]

Definitely we'll need to know what decoder you have for h.264. I don't see you mentioning one. MPC-HC has decoders built into the app that will do HA for h.264. I currently use PowerDVD8 with various ATI video cards. (HD3300 built-in, HD3650 and a HD4550) with that decoder for h.264. They all do HA and CPU is usually at or less than 20%.

Gerry

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by babgvant

What video decoder are you using for h.264?

I installed the stand-alone MPC-HC H.264 decoder (latest release from the MPC-Standalone Filters.1.3.1249.0.(x86).zip file on SourceForge).

I copied MPCVideoDec.ax to C:\Windows\System32\ and ran regsvr32.exe to register it.

I also have the full program installed (MPC-HomeCinema.1.3.1249.0.(x86).exe).

I ran Direct show Filter Manager (DSFMgr.exe) to verify that the MPC-HC decoder was installed and had the highest merit.

I used a sample H264 clip that I grabbed off the web somewhere. If I double click the file it launches in QuickTime and plays correctly. The QuickTime Movie inspector identifies the clip as:

Format: H.264, 1280x720, Millions, AAC, Stereo (LR), 48.000kHz
Movie FPS: 25.00
Data Rate: 6.32 mbits/sec
Duration 00:00:28.52

When I play it in the MPC-HC player, I get smooth picture and sound and low CPU utilization (~15%).

I also installed the latest version of Graph Studio. If I choose "Render Media File..." and open the clip there, it displays a simple graph, with the source file, the MPC-HC decoder, and the Video Renderer (see attached image). When I play it from Graph Studio, the picture is clear, CPU utilization is very low (~12%) but there is no sound. I noticed that there is nothing connected to the audio out pin on the source file in the graph - suspect this is why there is no sound. I probably need to install a directshow AAC filter.

When I try to play back in Sage, CPU utilization is 100% and picture is a little glitchy in spots. When I check the debug log I see that Sage is using MPlayer and FFMPEG. Here are some of the lines from the debug log...

Wed 10/7 22:36:45.949 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:==========================================================================
Wed 10/7 22:36:45.949 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:Opening video decoder: [ffmpeg] FFmpeg's libavcodec codec family
Wed 10/7 22:36:45.950 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:Selected video codec: [ffh264] vfm: ffmpeg (FFmpeg H.264)
Wed 10/7 22:36:45.953 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:==========================================================================
Wed 10/7 22:36:45.954 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:ID_VIDEO_CODEC=ffh264
Wed 10/7 22:36:45.954 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:==========================================================================
Wed 10/7 22:36:45.954 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:Opening audio decoder: [faad] AAC (MPEG2/4 Advanced Audio Coding)
Wed 10/7 22:36:45.954 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:AUDIO: 48000 Hz, 2 ch, s16le, 128.0 kbit/8.33% (ratio: 16000->192000)
Wed 10/7 22:36:45.954 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:ID_AUDIO_BITRATE=128000
Wed 10/7 22:36:45.954 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:ID_AUDIO_RATE=48000
Wed 10/7 22:36:45.955 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:ID_AUDIO_NCH=2
Wed 10/7 22:36:45.955 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:Selected audio codec: [faad] afm: faad (FAAD AAC (MPEG-2/MPEG-4 Audio) decoder)
Wed 10/7 22:36:45.956 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:==========================================================================
Wed 10/7 22:36:46.026 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:AO: [dsound] 48000Hz 2ch s16le (2 bytes per sample)
Wed 10/7 22:36:46.026 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:ID_AUDIO_CODEC=faad
Wed 10/7 22:36:46.026 [VideoFrame-SAGETV_PROCESS_LOCAL_UI@8cc09a] Done waiting for MPlayer to finish loading
Wed 10/7 22:36:46.029 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:UNDERFLOW MONITOR THREAD STARTING
Wed 10/7 22:36:46.094 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:VDec: vo config request - 1280 x 720 (preferred colorspace: Planar YV12)
Wed 10/7 22:36:46.094 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:VDec: using Planar YV12 as output csp (no 0)
Wed 10/7 22:36:46.098 [VideoFrame-SAGETV_PROCESS_LOCAL_UI@8cc09a] Waiting for MPlayer to pass time:0
Wed 10/7 22:36:46.099 [AsyncMPlayerVideoRender@1376b96] Created alternate surface
Wed 10/7 22:36:46.126 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:Movie-Aspect is undefined - no prescaling applied.
Wed 10/7 22:36:46.127 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:VO: [stvwin] 1280x720 => 1280x720 Planar YV12
Wed 10/7 22:36:46.127 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:sent command 128config reply 00000400 00000500 000E1400 00000280 00119800 00000280
Wed 10/7 22:36:46.128 [PlayerSendCmd@e61897] Sending mplayer command:volume 100 1
Wed 10/7 22:36:46.179 [MbSysInfoUpdatesThread@182f364] MbSysInfoMgrThread updating data...
Wed 10/7 22:36:46.195 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:WAIT-0 TIMEOUT EXPIRED!!!
Wed 10/7 22:36:46.195 [InputStreamConsumer@37783b] stdout:

I checked the Sage Properties file and saw that:
always_use_dshow_player=false

I tried changing to true and re-starting, but then I get a playback exception error in Sage. I am now guessing that this is because of the missing AAC filter.

So, am I on the right track? Where is the best place to get a (Free) AAC filter?

[Tiki]

Well, I went and found an AAC filter and installed it (CoreAAC Directshow filter 1.2.0.575 rev.3).

After that, Graph Studio plays back with sound and the graph shows the AAC filter connected to the audio pin, followed by the AC3 filter, and then the audio renderer (see attached). So, that is looking better.

Went back to Sage and tried setting always_use_dshow_player=true again, but still getting playback exception error.

Here is the error log:

Thu 10/8 16:24:50.331 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] DShowPlayer createGraph0 called
Thu 10/8 16:24:50.331 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] DShowPlayer setVideoRendererFilter0({51B4ABF3-748F-4E3B-A276-C828330E926A}) called
Thu 10/8 16:24:50.537 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] Using VMR9 for video rendering
Thu 10/8 16:24:50.540 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] Setting up VMR9 deinterlacing
Thu 10/8 16:24:50.540 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] Curr Mix Prefs=0x1015
Thu 10/8 16:24:50.540 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] Set to 0x2015, hr=0x0, New Mix Prefs=0x2015
Thu 10/8 16:24:50.541 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] DShowPlayer setVideoDecoderFilter0(MPC - Video decoder) called
Thu 10/8 16:24:50.769 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] DShowPlayer setTimeshift=0 buffer=0
Thu 10/8 16:24:50.770 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] Using the default source filter
Thu 10/8 16:24:50.771 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] NATIVE Loading the source file
Thu 10/8 16:24:50.774 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] NATIVE RenderSource called
Thu 10/8 16:24:50.989 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] WIN32 FAILURE HR=0x80040266 FILE=.\CPlayerData.cpp LINE=1538
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.192 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] WIN32 FAILURE HR=0x80040266 FILE=.\CPlayerData.cpp LINE=1567
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.193 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] Exception from line: 763
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.193 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] Built:sage.PlaybackException: ERROR (-4,0x80040266): There was a problem rendering the video portion of the content for playback.
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.193 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] sage.PlaybackException: ERROR (-4,0x80040266): There was a problem rendering the video portion of the content for playback.
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.193 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] at sage.DShowMediaPlayer.setupGraph0(Native Method)
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.193 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] at sage.DShowMediaPlayer.load(Unknown Source)
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.193 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] at sage.VideoFrame.a(Unknown Source)
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.193 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] at sage.VideoFrame.a(Unknown Source)
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.193 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] at sage.VideoFrame.access$300(Unknown Source)
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.193 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] at sage.VideoFrame$6.run(Unknown Source)
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.194 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] at java.awt.event.InvocationEvent.dispatch(Unknown Source)
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.194 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] at java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source)
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.194 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpOneEventForFilters(Unknown Source)
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.194 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForFilter(Unknown Source)
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.194 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForHierarchy(Unknown Source)
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.194 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.194 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(Unknown Source)
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.194 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.run(Unknown Source)
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.195 [ReProcessHook@81a2e1] processOptionsMenu optionsMenu=default:BASE-77347|OptionsMenu:ErrorMessage
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.195 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] VideoFrame had an error loading the file. It must abort the file load.
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.196 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] Tearing down playback graph
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.196 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] NATIVE Deallocating the CPlayerData object
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.196 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] ....RemoveFilter [E:\Imported Videos 1\My DVDs\Angel.2008.Eng.720p.h264.Sample.mp4] .
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.196 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] ....RemoveFilter [Video Decoder] .
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.197 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] ....RemoveFilter [VidRend] .
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.198 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] NATIVE Finished destroying the playback graph
Thu 10/8 16:24:51.199 [AWT-EventQueue-0@1729854] Graph ref Count=1

Could this be related to the Sticky post at the top of the Beta section of this forum regarding "New Native Recording Patch"?

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by Tiki

Well, I went and found an AAC filter and installed it (CoreAAC Directshow filter 1.2.0.575 rev.3).

After that, Graph Studio plays back with sound and the graph shows the AAC filter connected to the audio pin, followed by the AC3 filter, and then the audio renderer (see attached). So, that is looking better.

Went back to Sage and tried setting always_use_dshow_player=true again, but still getting playback exception error.

Here is the error log:
Could this be related to the Sticky post at the top of the Beta section of this forum regarding "New Native Recording Patch"?

I use the MPC-HC audio decoder for AAC, it does a lot of other formats too. Many people like ffdshow, just be careful how you install it.

Run ac3config.exe (in the sage install dir) and disable PCM on the System tab. Then give it a go.

[Tiki]

OK, so it appears that I also need a valid DirectShow MP4 Splitter. The splitter demuxes the MP4 file and separates out the audio and video streams so that the H264 video decoder and AAC audio decoders can play them back.

The MPC-HC stand-alone filter pack also has an MP4 Splitter. I copied the MP4Splitter.ax file to C:\Windows\System32 and registered it.

Now when I run Graph Studio, the default graph includes the splitter (See attached). And, when I view my sample video in Sage, it looks good, sound works, and CPU usage is low (~15%) on my lowly Sempron 3100, so I know it is using DXVA hardware acceleration with my video card.

Note: always_use_dshow_player=true must be set to use the accelerated MPC-HC h.264 decoder. If it is false, Sage uses mplayer instead and CPU usage goes back to 100%

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by Tiki

The MPC-HC stand-alone filter pack also has an MP4 Splitter. I copied the MP4Splitter.ax file to C:\Windows\System32 and registered it.

FWIW you don't need to put the filters in system32, they can go anywhere.

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by babgvant

FWIW you don't need to put the filters in system32, they can go anywhere.

Thanks for the info...
I wish you had pointed me to your antipack download sooner. Seems like that should be in a sticky somewhere.

Of course I probably learned a lot more about how this stuff works by floundering around for a while.

Anyway, on to the next challenge... When I play videos from the Sage Online services menu (for example vodcasts from HD Nation), they still use MPlayer rather than Dshow and are not hardware accelerated.

I see there is another setting in the SageClient.properties for mplayer/use_for_online_content=true. Default = true. If I set to false, it will use my directshow filters.

So, when I do this with HDNation (which streams an MP4 file), the video+audio plays for maybe 5-10 seconds and then it drops me back to the Sage menu. I see my CPU usage hovers around 50% during playback and stays there after it kicks out of the video player, until I hit the "Stop" button. From what I can tell, it still thinks it is playing, until I hit Stop.

Does anyone know if there is a "trick" to making this work with streaming video?