CableCard OEM Restriction Lifted!!!

[Fuzzy]

I think it DOES make sense, when you look at their goals with the Sever on a Stick. They could, with this server, if done right, leave it to the hardware manufacturers to sell custom Sage STBs, with built-in multituner cablecard slots. This could bring it to the more mainstream user, and drastically up the numbers. It's a business decision that sage would have to make, and it is a gamble. But what big business decision isn't?

[SHS]

reggie14 rigth that only the tip of ice
There lots of other Licensing fees, Support Fee and etc which need be take in to count for.
Ceton cablecard major down side in there FAQ is nothing in ref to 3rdparty apps like MythTV (Linux), SageTV and min, min other which mean your lock down to only one chosse Windows Media Center which be there bigger down fall

This may best guest
Ther biggest share of DVR/PVR user has be Cable, Satellite that include Tivo may be a round 30/35% but thoses device total suck which has way to min cons.
Windows Media Center may cover about 20/25% of people out there and is losseing user every day becuases lame DRM, not highly configurable and tweakable like other and worst of all dosen't Multi-Source input and that not the half of it.
Of all the other 3rdparty which growing in number 50/45% the major one MythTV (Linux), SageTV and XBMC.
If ask me I think Ceton is braking up the wrong tree they may have hard time selling to min consumer when min user are moving a way from Windows Vista/7 Media Center.

I got bad felling that the MPPA, RIAA, CableLab and sure min other are up to no good in a few year after all they only need to decide to turn channel copy 0 on all channel so all of us sucker get hit with this BS.

[dfitz43]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Frankly if CableCard means that much to you, you might as well go, I just don't see things happening soon. Though you'll probably be very disappointed in the extenders if you use your SageTV extenders for anything beyond TV.

Yes, from the little I've seen of the rapidly disappearing WMC extenders, I would definitely be disappointed. The HD100 and subsequent HD200 have been fantastic additions for Sage, and as I've mentioned, have dramatically increased my uptime, and I'd have to imagine dramatically decreased the barriers to entry from both a financial and technical perspective.

You're saying you'd pay SageTV $400 just for a cablecard supporting version? That would be like an $800 investment then by the time you get the card.

Absolutely, wouldn't think twice about it. By my (very rough) calculation, that would probably be cheaper/similar than the two comparable (but clunkier solutions):

1) HDPVR *4 = 800 (quick search looked like new price about 200 each)

2) R50000 * 4 = ?? Currently their premodded vip211 box is 650 (*4 = 2600), though I know in the past they had better deals. Plus, can you even have 4 R5000s on one system??

Point being, even with say a 400 buck licensing fee in addition to 400 guessimated retail card cost, I think you're looking at a significant value proposition. Not to mention a much more integrated solution. As well, you're potentially making up 40-80 bucks a month in monthly recurring costs if you can't purchase the cable/sat boxes outright.

Very interesting about the apparent licensing costs. I guess it's difficult for any of us to know whether this is prohibitive for Sage, but seems like it has the potential to be.

I definitely think the cablecard thing has the potential to make Sage more mainstream, but it's still a very niche product. A great niche that I love, but it would be a shame not to have a potentially game-changing product available.

cheers,
Dave

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by SHS

reggie14 rigth that only the tip of ice
There lots of other Licensing fees, Support Fee and etc which need be take in to count for.
Ceton cablecard major down side in there FAQ is nothing in ref to 3rdparty apps like MythTV (Linux), SageTV and min, min other which mean your lock down to only one chosse Windows Media Center which be there bigger down fall

Problem is they can't support anyone else because no one else supports a Cable Labs approved DRM scheme. What I mean is even if the Ceton device has drivers that are controlable by 3rd parties (and frankly I have no reason to think they don't), 3rd parties would be unable to use the recordings becasue they come out of the tuner with WM DMR10 on them.

Now it will be interesting with the eased restrictions (no automatic DRM application) to see if SageTV et all can control the tuners and play the clear recordings.....

This may best guest
Ther biggest share of DVR/PVR user has be Cable, Satellite that include Tivo may be a round 30/35% but thoses device total suck which has way to min cons.
Windows Media Center may cover about 20/25% of people out there and is losseing user every day becuases lame DRM, not highly configurable and tweakable like other and worst of all dosen't Multi-Source input and that not the half of it.

Actually my guess would be that the Cable/Sat providers have like 90-95% of the DVR market, with Tivo being maybe 5%, Moxi/Replay and other standalones maybe 4% and Sage and all the other PC DVRs together fighting for that last 1%. But that's just a guess.

If ask me I think Ceton is braking up the wrong tree they may have hard time selling to min consumer when min user are moving a way from Windows Vista/7 Media Center.

Until these third parties support a Cable Labs approved DRM, there's nothing Ceton, or anyone else can do. To get CableCard working, SageTV et all need to support WM DRM 10, Real Helix, or come up with their own DRM and get it approved by Cable Labs.

[SHS]

Problem is they can't support anyone else because no one else supports a Cable Labs approved DRM scheme. What I mean is even if the Ceton device has drivers that are controlable by 3rd parties (and frankly I have no reason to think they don't), 3rd parties would be unable to use the recordings becasue they come out of the tuner with WM DMR10 on them.

And look where it gotting DVD, CD "Sony,BMG RootKit", Bluray, MS, Real Helix and Apple just name a few which where all cracked ever time.
That is why they need more all Media delivery platform that cover all OS and standalone device in fact they really don't need Re-encryption of Content ocen it decryption.
I do under the point of encryption cable which I'm fine with incoming cable after all we should be pay for the incoming cable services and I'm there min dead beat out there that don't paid any thing.

Now it will be interesting with the eased restrictions (no automatic DRM application) to see if SageTV et all can control the tuners and play the clear recordings.....

I think you still have obtained a CableCard so there for you may not be able to bypass the Ceton device secure host processor which in turn I think may add the DRM stuff back in after all you still have be deal with MS-WTV files format output ocen agine MS back to old BS wrapper stuff so converting take more time.
The truth is CableCARD tuner is still locked down with DRM and it doesn't matter whether the content is marked as copy freely or not.
The only thing that has change is OEM requirement which eliminated this part that all big deal that dose solve the real problem to cons when things go wrong like harddrive crash and restore of the system and backup of the media.

Actually my guess would be that the Cable/Sat providers have like 90-95% of the DVR market, with Tivo being maybe 5%, Moxi/Replay and other standalones maybe 4% and Sage and all the other PC DVRs together fighting for that last 1%. But that's just a guess.

Frist of all you can count Replay any more it own by DirecTV.
Only if take in count for non DVR/PVR Settop boxs and it more likely be 75% to maybe 85% tops and I agree with you on Tivo being maybe 5% at best.

Until these third parties support a Cable Labs approved DRM, there's nothing Ceton, or anyone else can do. To get CableCard working, SageTV et all need to support WM DRM 10, Real Helix, or come up with their own DRM and get it approved by Cable Labs.

I know

[MalibuDave42]

Looks like the have a new ruling:
Q: When will I be able to build my own system and use your product?
A: With the recent change in CableLabs licensing, we’re pleased to announce that the Ceton Multi-Channel Cable TV Card will be available both as a standalone retail offering , as well as bundled in new PCs from leading OEM partners that will be announced in the future. Consumers will be able to purchase the standalone retail product to build their own system as long as it meets the published system requirements.

http://www.cetoncorp.com/ProductsWMCFAQ.php

* moved from very old thread *

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by MalibuDave42

Looks like the have a new ruling:
Q: When will I be able to build my own system and use your product?
A: With the recent change in CableLabs licensing, we’re pleased to announce that the Ceton Multi-Channel Cable TV Card will be available both as a standalone retail offering , as well as bundled in new PCs from leading OEM partners that will be announced in the future. Consumers will be able to purchase the standalone retail product to build their own system as long as it meets the published system requirements.

There are a lot of threads on this issue. But, long story short, it probably doesn't make much of a difference when it comes to official support for Cable Card in Sage. Even if Sage could use the Ceton tuner, Sage would need to implement Microsoft's PlayReady DRM, which isn't likely to happen. Someone is working on a plugin that basically controls the Ceton device through Windows Media Center, which is turn is controlled by Sage. That should work as long as whatever channel you're trying to record isn't flagged with any copy protection.

[Taddeusz]

I'm cautiously excited about the prospect of being able to use CableCard tuners through W7MC. Mainly because I'd be at the whim of my cable company. I hope that most of the channels from Cox Cable are marked "copy once". Unless they don't actually comply with 5C I suspect it would break their own DVR system to switch their channels to "copy never". It still sucks being at the whim of the cable company since the flag could be changed on a program basis and I could end up with an encrypted recording due to that.

[Greg]

I have a question about the actual Cablecard and the Ceton muti-tuner, let's say the 4 tuner version. This tuner should take 1 Cablecard to support all 4 tuners......correct? How would Comcast charge for this card? Is it similar to one of their STB rental's or are they going to charge based on the number of tuners (4 in this case)?

Is there any way to find out from Comcast what channels are copy protected?

Thanks,
Greg

[MitchSchaft]

What need to ask comcast how much they charge.

[cancerkazoo]

Originally Posted by MitchSchaft

What need to ask comcast how much they charge.

I'm a tech for Comcast and at least in our market the 1st cable card on the account is free, $1.50/m for each thereafter.

If your do call when Ceton's card is in your hands, make sure they put a comment on the order to send a 'M' card only as we still have single stream cards floating around.

[cancerkazoo]

Originally Posted by Greg

I have a question about the actual Cablecard and the Ceton muti-tuner, let's say the 4 tuner version. This tuner should take 1 Cablecard to support all 4 tuners......correct? How would Comcast charge for this card? Is it similar to one of their STB rental's or are they going to charge based on the number of tuners (4 in this case)?

Is there any way to find out from Comcast what channels are copy protected?

Thanks,
Greg

If you currently have a HD / DVR box from comcast;

press on the remote [cable] [power] [ok]
then go to d11 in the diagnostics, on page 3 of d11 it will say "5c implementation:" with a yes or no next to it. The copy control will be directly below that.

[MitchSchaft]

Originally Posted by cancerkazoo

I'm a tech for Comcast and at least in our market the 1st cable card on the account is free, $1.50/m for each thereafter.

It's the same here in Memphis!

[Greg]

Originally Posted by cancerkazoo

I'm a tech for Comcast and at least in our market the 1st cable card on the account is free, $1.50/m for each thereafter.

If your do call when Ceton's card is in your hands, make sure they put a comment on the order to send a 'M' card only as we still have single stream cards floating around.

Originally Posted by cancerkazoo

If you currently have a HD / DVR box from comcast;

press on the remote [cable] [power] [ok]
then go to d11 in the diagnostics, on page 3 of d11 it will say "5c implementation:" with a yes or no next to it. The copy control will be directly below that.

Thanks for the information. I don't have a DVR, just the HD box. I can get one of my friends to check their DVR.

Thanks,
Greg

[Clift]

Greg,

You can use a similar process on a non-DVR box. What make is your STB? Scientific Atlanta? What model?

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by cancerkazoo

If you currently have a HD / DVR box from comcast;

press on the remote [cable] [power] [ok]
then go to d11 in the diagnostics, on page 3 of d11 it will say "5c implementation:" with a yes or no next to it. The copy control will be directly below that.

Out of curiosity, do you know how accurate this is? I say this because all of my channels are copy-freely (0x00, I believe), but firewire recording doesn't work on all of them. In general, those things should correspond pretty well with each other.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Out of curiosity, do you know how accurate this is? I say this because all of my channels are copy-freely (0x00, I believe), but firewire recording doesn't work on all of them. In general, those things should correspond pretty well with each other.

My understanding is that there isn't a relationship b/w what works on FW and the flags even though there should be.

[cat6man]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Problem is they can't support anyone else because no one else supports a Cable Labs approved DRM scheme. What I mean is even if the Ceton device has drivers that are controlable by 3rd parties (and frankly I have no reason to think they don't), 3rd parties would be unable to use the recordings becasue they come out of the tuner with WM DMR10 on them.

Until these third parties support a Cable Labs approved DRM, there's nothing Ceton, or anyone else can do. To get CableCard working, SageTV et all need to support WM DRM 10, Real Helix, or come up with their own DRM and get it approved by Cable Labs.

wouldn't a sigma 864x based chipset in a media extender solve this problem?
drm support is built in, if i'm not mistaken.

this might not work for all of you, but i only watch video on media extenders, and never on my sagetv pc

any reason why the extender solution (there, i'm sure, would be a sdk fee of some sort to enable drm in the 864x chipset but it wouldn't require sage to support drm in sagetv software) wouldn't work?

then, sagetv (maybe server on a stick) with cable card as the recording engine, media extender for playback..............the package works for me

[Greg]

Originally Posted by Clift

Greg,

You can use a similar process on a non-DVR box. What make is your STB? Scientific Atlanta? What model?

Clift,

I have the Motorola DCT6200.

Thanks,
Greg

[Clift]

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/How_to_...TCP_is_Enabled

How To Check If 5C DTCP is Enabled

* Tune to the channel you are checking for 5C DTCP use.
* Turn the STB to Standby/Off and press OK/SELECT on the remote within 2 seconds to enter the Diagnostic Main Menu.
* Use DOWN ARROW and then OK/SELECT to select the "d11 INTERFACE STATUS" option.
* Look at "5C IMPLEMENTATION". A "0" indicates 5C DTCP is not being used, a "1" indicates 5C DTCP is being used.
* Press OK/SELECT to go back to the Diagnostic Main Menu.
* Press Power to exit the Diagnostic Main Menu and Power again to turn the STB back on.

On some boxes, it may display "5C IMPLEMENTATION = NO." If this is the case, then you must do the following instead to check your 5C status:

* Tune to the channel you are checking for 5C DTCP use.
* Turn the STB to Standby/Off and press OK/SELECT on the remote within 2 seconds to enter the Diagnostic Main Menu.
* Use DOWN ARROW and then OK/SELECT to select the "d06 CURRENT CHANNEL STATUS" option.
* If "CCI" and "DRM" have values of "0x00" the channel is unencrypted. If either setting has any other value, such as "0x01" or "0x02", it indicates encryption.
* If the "RC Flag" (Redistribution Control Flag) has any value other than "0x00", then the Broadcast Flag has been detected and the Firewire output is encrypted as a result.
* At least one person has been able to record over Firewire with "CCI" set to 0x02, "DRM" set to 0x00, and "RC Flag" set to 0x00.