blu-ray playback on extenders without problems -- yes -- how to

[Deacon Crusher]

I've been working with Demo/sage for a couple of weeks very assiduously on this problem and to cut to the chase I have a solution.

You may not like it, but what it gets you is pretty nice.

If you have a gig switch at the heart of your network and your sage server is on a gig connection, throw a little gig palm switch in front of each of your extenders (including HD100s) and watch what happens.

I've had problems off and on from the beginning with hi-bit rate file playback on my extenders (blu-ray rips) and have tried many many things. However, other then using the 05/05 firmware on my HD200 (which is missing some features so it's not a real solution) I could never get this to work reliably.

After working with TS it really came down to it looking like the extenders are very sensitive to something going on in my network or with my cables or drops. However, after swapping out all cables for cat 5e cables and making sure everything is clean (which did up my general throughput throughout my network) I still had issues. So, yes, I had network issues, and for all I know I may still have some subtle ones, but things seem much better and unless I'm willing to redo the runs under my house or go wireless I was stuck.

This made me crazy so while pacing around the house talking to myself I realized that with gig at the heart, what would happen if I brought gig all the way to the extender and just stepped down to 100 meg right there at the extender. So, having a couple of spare netgear 5 port gig switches sitting around I popped them in front of my HD200 and one of my HD100s and started testing. The Palm switches do sync up at gig with my central gig switch and then the extender has a little 3 ft. cable between it and that gig palm switch and sure enough I'm getting perfect playback of even a very hi-bit-rate new movie like Watchmen even on my HD100.

This really looks like a solution that pays off. It does feel like this may be an issue with Sage's network stack on the extenders, but it may also just be an intrinsic shortcoming in the hardware??

Either way I'd love it if some of you guys who have also been having this problem would give this a try and let me know what you see/get.

For clarities sake here's a basic map.


Sage Server--(patch cable, wall jack, wall cable, patch panel, patch cable)----Central Gig switch--(patch cable, patch panel, wall cable, wall jack, patch cable)----palm gig switch--(patch cable)----extender.

I have another gig switch hanging off the central one that has my HD homeruns plugged into it and another palm gig switch hanging off the central switch that goes to another extender.

I can even have my blu-ray mkvs living on another file server and it just works.

All is now working really well.

Good luck.

[mr_lore]

Interesting, never had issues with blu ray rips (just got done watching gladiator actually) on either hd200 or hd100 but it would almost seem like your central switch doesn't like to handle auto negotiation for port speed very well (100F/1000F vs auto, 100H, etc). If it has any 'brains' I would dive into the switch and set all the extender ports to 100F instead of auto if possible.


Ive been rocking a netgear gigabit prosafe myself for about 4 years now, no issues.

[Fuzzy]

There are a large number of very poor quality of gig-e switches on the market, and I firmly believe they are the root cause of a LOT of problems on the forums. The sad truth is, that most consumer, non-managed switches are not really capable of operating at full-speed. Whole house HD media distribution really DOES warrant a move to pro-level networking, and you will find it greatly improves overall reliability.

[stanger89]

Yeah, I too have had no problems either, but when I was picking my Gig switch, I chose one that was listed on the ReadyNAS Hardware Compatibility List, the Netgear GS608 to be specific. It's not managed, but it supports jumbo frames and was "compatible" with my NAS.

[technazz]

I have had the same stuttering problems as you guys with larger bitrate files. It turned out to be a bad network cable that would work but the speed seemed to be reduced due to bad crimp/noise issue. I replaced the crimp and now I'm stutter free without replacing my switches to GIG-E.

Technazz

[GCS2000]

Serious stuttering for me as well with BR file playback only.

I already have D-Link Gigabit switches at each HD200 location since I have XBOXs and DirecTV units running on the network also.

Greg

[toony]

I think if you get a good auto neg switch that should clear up the problem.

However using cat 6 cable makes a huge difference. I know that the sage boxes are 100 but there is a difference. I am running a Dlink gig switch and router with all cat 6 cable and can serve blu ray to 1 hd200 and 1 hd100 at once and 1 dvd to a 3rd without any stuttering.
I had one tv with an hd100 on cat 5e for a while and there would be stuttering, it was the only weak link, once I changed that to cat 6 problem solved.

You know you will never get 1000mbs on a gig network but the shielding in the cable and the larger guage makes a difference regardless if the system auto neg down to 100.

[Olias]

Originally Posted by toony

However using cat 6 cable makes a huge difference.
...but the shielding in the cable and the larger guage makes a difference regardless if the system auto neg down to 100.

Um, sorry to burst your bubble but it wasn't the fact you used cat 6 cable; you probably had a faulty cat5e cable.
Both cables are spec'd to use the same gauge wire (22 - 24). Both are also generally unshielded (you need to be careful using sheilded cable especially for longer distances as they can cause ground loops).
As long as your cable is TIA/EIA certified, it doesn't really matter whether you use 5e or 6, they will both work at 10, 100, or 1000 Mb. However, for longer runs, it's generally better to go with the higher rated cat6 cable.

[toony]

Originally Posted by Olias

Um, sorry to burst your bubble but it wasn't the fact you used cat 6 cable; you probably had a faulty cat5e cable.
Both cables are spec'd to use the same gauge wire (22 - 24). Both are also generally unshielded (you need to be careful using sheilded cable especially for longer distances as they can cause ground loops).
As long as your cable is TIA/EIA certified, it doesn't really matter whether you use 5e or 6, they will both work at 10, 100, or 1000 Mb. However, for longer runs, it's generally better to go with the higher rated cat6 cable.

Oh your not bursting my bubble, I'm not going to get into a nitpicking argument here, yes according to the ANSI/TIA-568-B.2-1 specification the cable may be made with 22 to 24 AWG wire, Cat-6 is sometimes made with 23 gauge wire, mostly when buying offshore manufactured cable. Most if not all good cable in NA and EU are the larger gauge, as is the one I buy.

I checked for ground loops, the cable was fine...

Anyway take care.

[Tikker]

Originally Posted by Deacon Crusher

Sage Server--(patch cable, wall jack, wall cable, patch panel, patch cable)----Central Gig switch--(patch cable, patch panel, wall cable, wall jack, patch cable)----palm gig switch--(patch cable)----extender.

I have another gig switch hanging off the central one that has my HD homeruns plugged into it and another palm gig switch hanging off the central switch that goes to another extender.

I can even have my blu-ray mkvs living on another file server and it just works.

All is now working really well.

Good luck.

some gig switches, when they fail to get a complete/proper autonegotiation, default back down to 10 or 100mb half duplex

I think this is more like what you're seeing, and why sticking another switch inbetween solved the issue

[tierpath]

Also, it depends on the Gig Switch you use and if your using Jumbo Frames.
I have a Netgear With Jumbo Frames turned on for the Sage Server and off for the HD200's I have (2 of them) because they run at 10/100, and it's very smooth.

[lpitman]

Jumbo Frames must be negotiated with both sides or fragmented, which defeats the purpose...

Also there are major differences between Cat5e and Cat6 at 1000Mb speeds, mostly in the distance you can run...

Which is why another layer-2 device like a gig-switch is improving your through-put. The reason this works for you is probably because the switch acts as a repeater. The tighter twists etc. in a Cat6 cable helps eliminate cross-talk and inductive coupling that occurs in longer distances.

[Hunter69]

Well when I first got into this game I had similar issues. I followed the same advice, all great advice by the way. If I have learned anything, I know this a dvr like sagetv is dependent on a good network connection and a good recording drive.
1. I bought HP Procurve 1400 Gige switch. Although I if I were to buy today I would've bought the 1800 to setup a vlan. There are no issues with my HP Procurve switch.
2. Since I put my recording share on a WD Black drive, most issues are gone.

These two changes seemed to make the biggest differences in reliability/WAF!

[valnar]

Originally Posted by Deacon Crusher

If you have a gig switch at the heart of your network and your sage server is on a gig connection, throw a little gig palm switch in front of each of your extenders (including HD100s) and watch what happens.

I hate to burst your bubble, but none of that should matter. Your extenders are only talking 100Mb. It doesn't matter if they talk 100Mb for 3 feet or 100 feet. What probably happened is you cleaned up some bad wiring or marginal runs, or maybe those extenders are simply more compatible with your "palm" switches.

If you have good cabling home run to a good gigabit switch (more for the benefit of your Sage Server), that would have the same effect.

Originally Posted by Hunter69

1. I bought HP Procurve 1400 Gige switch. Although I if I were to buy today I would've bought the 1800 to setup a vlan. There are no issues with my HP Procurve switch.
2. Since I put my recording share on a WD Black drive, most issues are gone.

I second these recommendations. Fast 1TB (or so) drive for recordings, like the WD Black and a good switch like an HP ProCurve.

Originally Posted by GCS2000

Serious stuttering for me as well with BR file playback only.

I already have D-Link Gigabit switches at each HD200 location since I have XBOXs and DirecTV units running on the network also.

Not all gig switches are created equal. In fact, the tolerance between good and bad switches is heightened when comparing gigabit vs fast ethernet. D-Link is not good.

[Beefcake550]

Wow.. no one hit the other possible fix here......additional buffering . I ended up doing the same thing in my family room, but for different reasons. I only had 2 drops, but an xbox, hd200, and a popcorn a-110 to hook up. Since I'd only ever be using one device at a time and all devices were 100Mb, I dropped a cheapo 100Mb switch. Now, I know the 100Mb switch still doesn't have the 1Gb port like the OP's setup, but I noticed much better performance after changing my setup to this.

Being a comptuer engineer that designs chips, I can understand the benefit of additional buffering. I believe this is the reason the OPs situation got better.

When buying a router/switch, look at the buffer sizes for each port and total buffering. The bigger the better! Notice how the newer switches that support USB sticks and media serving all have 2-4x the buffering of older routers/switches. Asus RT-N16 is a great example.

Cheers,
Brian

[jbuszkie]

I also had issue with skips in playback only on Avatar so far.. I was able to fix the issue by removing the old 100Mb hub/switch to my HD200 and put in a Gig switch and the playback became smooth.. So there is something to having a fast link for the longer run (gig 2 gig) and then 3ft or so to the HD200 @ 100Mb

Jim